Building Attraction vs. Cooperation - Is There a Difference?

[DonGorgon]

Attraction = co operation..

A girl who is not attracted will not co operate unless she is drunk or you payed her..

 

[izza]

Compliance is a girl doing what you want out of obligation or because she feels she has to, and Cooperation (in this thread) means a girl who wants to work together with you.

I CANNOT stress this enough. Read this thread
Cultivate feelings of attraction & desire, not feelings of obligation

For all intents and purposes, this thread could also be called, "Cultivate cooperation and not feelings of compliance." It is one of the best posts on SoSuave and I know you will enjoy it. He follows a similar thought process as you (other than the whole reinventing the wheel part, lol)

Hi Macallik,

Thanks for the link. I've read what you posted, and I can see how you think my post is the same as that guy's. You are free to define compliance as acting out of obligation if you like. But for the purposes of this thread, I do not define compliance that way, and the difference is important. That said, in rereading my thread, I can understand why you thought I define compliance as acting under obligation. And I think the miscommunication is at least partly due to my carelessness. So let's clear this up.

Compliance to you means a girl goes along with something she feels pressured or guilted into. Although that is a form of compliance, for me, this is not the only type of compliance.

Therefore, for you, cooperation must be when she's going along with you due to her own choice. But again, I do not define it only this way.

Let me tell you first what I'm responding to. I think this will help you understand how I define my terms. On this board, many people recommend what I would call a 90-10 model for pickup. The link you sent me does not, and we'll get to that. But think about how much work many recommend the guy do: the guy approaches, the guy gets the number, the guy calls the girl, the guy sets up the date, the guy initiates kino, the guy brings the girl somewhere else, the guy directs everything, the guy goes for the first kiss, the guy gets over her defenses or whatever else, and the guy speeds things along for sex.

Although, of course, the girl is going along with all these things, let's face it, the guy is doing most if not all of the initiating. Now what is the girl doing this whole time, according to this model?

Well, basically she's being compliant. She might be going along because she feels guilty, or she might really want to have sex but not want to initiate anything. So let's say you have a girl who's really attracted to a guy but who is also shy. She wants to sleep with the guy. But, she's shy. So the guy approaches her, she converses; the guy requests her number, she gives it; the guy calls her, she answers; the guy sets a time for a date, she goes; the guy kisses her, she kisses back; the guy moves for sex and she screws him.

She is not acting out of guilt, she is not acting out of obligation. But she is still being passive, she is not initiating anything. In other words, she does not approach, come up with a date idea, she doesn't call him, she doesn't initiate the kiss. This female passivity - which guys are encouraging by doing all the work - is what I'm calling compliance. But you make a really important point - that sometimes girls will be compliant without attraction, for other reasons. In my case, I'm arguing that attraction is a prerequisite to cooperation. And you're essentially pointing out that attraction isn't a prerequisite to what I call compliance - going along with what the guy does for whatever reason.

So I think you've made a really important point. And you've brought up a really important distinction - the difference between compliance by mutual desire and compliance by obligation. I agree with you completely: mutual desire is much more powerful and effective (and fun).

I think that your post also has a lot to do with attraction - because obviously many women will resent a guy she feels obliged to. So I think you're bringing up a great point about how to build attraction: this cannot be an obligation!

As for the cooperation piece, let me explain what I mean, and then explain the attitude I'm responding to. Cooperation for me is anytime the girl actively participates and initiates steps toward seduction. In your post, I was concerned that we were miscommunicating because it seems you see "cooperation" (active participation) and "her passively going along with what you do because she's attracted to you" (what I call compliance), as the same. I think there's a really important difference. I think the post you sent me does try to build real attraction. I think we can all learn more about building attraction. Also, I don't think the post you sent me focuses on building cooperation as I've defined it.

He says:

"Making her WANT you every step of the way" is seduction. And he's pointing out the difference between rape and seduction, basically. I think his post is super-important and definitely something every guy should read. Maybe mine is less important. I also think it's different.

The poster talks about making her desire every step. But he doesn't talk about getting her to DO some of the steps. That's what I'm talking about - getting women to take action. Having women who want every step makes pick up not too hard. But getting women to pick you up makes it even easier.

Do you see the difference? I think the 90-10 model of the guy taking the action is so prevalent that people have a really tough time understanding that I believe it's possible to get women to take action.

Imagine a world where if a woman was attracted to you she would approach you. You exchange numbers, maybe you're busy for a few days so she calls you and that's fine. She has good ideas for what to do. You show up and she says actually wanna come back to my place?

That would be a world where seduction would be fast and game-free. And keep in mind there are good reasons why we don't live in that world, and STDs is not it.

Men feel uncomfortable with women who take action, so they pull back. I hate it when guys do this - they prevent women worldwide from taking steps to pick us up! But so many guys react this way that women act much more passive. Or how about the stalkers. Or the guys who upon a single indicator of interest, get on one knee and propose marriage?

Basically, many guys on here believe that a girl cooperating with you is impossible. Keep in mind that 1/4 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Women cannot be so open about sex. Women who openly desire sex are labeled sluts.

Why should she take action when in so many situations she will be punished and chastised for it?

But guys don't understand the fear sexual women live in. Guys don't understand why women don't cooperate, but instead they just comply. That is a really important difference. But your poster makes a good point: part of that is that a lot of guys have a cavalier attitude, as if she is to be conquered. And that turns women off. Great reminder.

Best wishes,
Izza

 

[izza]

Attraction = co operation..

A girl who is not attracted will not co operate unless she is drunk or you payed her..

Thanks for the reply. I agree that attraction is a prerequisite to cooperation.

And in guys, attraction does equal cooperation.

But in women, I would argue, if a woman feels attracted to you, she will not necessarily cooperate (she will usually comply). But that's because guys who need to domineer, clingy guys, sexual violence (1/4 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime), and the slut label instill a fear in women of sexual cooperation. There may be other reasons too. But the bottom line: most women are willing to comply when attracted but most are afraid to take action, to initiate things in order to get sex.

Many guys fail to understand that the risks to women who take action to get sex are not insignificant, and much greater than the risks for men.

Although if you still disagree, I would be curious to hear what your reasoning is, and how you think about these things.

Best,
Izza

 

[izza]

Attraction = co operation..

A girl who is not attracted will not co operate unless she is drunk or you payed her..

Thanks for the reply. I agree that attraction is a prerequisite to cooperation.

And in guys, attraction does equal cooperation.

But in women, I would argue, it doesn't. But that's because guys who need to domineer, clingy guys, sexual violence (1/4 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime), and the slut label instill a fear in women of appearing pro-active to get sex. There may be other reasons too. But the bottom line: most women are willing to comply when attracted but most are afraid to take action, to initiate things in order to get sex.

Many guys fail to understand that the risks to women who take action to get sex are not insignificant, and much greater than the risks for men.

Although if you still disagree, I would be curious to hear what your reasoning is, and how you think about these things.

Best,
Izza

 

[slaog]

Could you give a few examples of HOW this works? cheers

 

[izza]

Izza, this is pretty interesting idea. This is a great way to escalate things.

I smirked when you said, "Invite her to hit on you." I thought that was pure genius. There some great concepts in there bro. I definitely can see how easy it is for men to avoid cooperation and then solely build attractions.

I know I'm guilty.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you found this helpful. I know I have been guilty - and to be honest, I still am guilty of not building cooperation. For me, this is a HUGE shift in mentality, but I'm getting better.

Thanks again.

Slaog - let me share a few brief examples.

Again, I mentioned that my technique is to liberate women from societal restraints (or at least show that I don't believe in them), prove that I am a good-hearted guy, and also request her participation. I find this is a great combination. Once these things are in place, women have been really helpful.

So let me share some setup. I met some girl at a yoga class. We got to talking about sex stuff, and I told her how messed up our societal judgments against women who want sex are. I told her a lot about my life. We went for a walk. At the end of the night, we just said we'd be in touch. Her friend's friend friend has my email address. Two days later, I got an email from her. So already, had taken a proactive step of contacting me. This saved me work because I was busy and didn't have time to go through the friend of friend of friend. Then, we talked, I invited her somewhere, she couldn't make it. Then she invited me to a burlesque show - not only inviting me out, but setting up a sexual dynamic. I wasn't able to make it, but we have an obvious sexual dynamic, one that she helped set up.

So I think that's a good example of how, once she knew that I didn't share society's stupid judgments against women, that I am a good person (because I told her about my life), and I asked her to contact me, she did. And I made it clear through various means, not really consciously, that I expect her to do her part in facilitating whatever we do.

The other day, a girl had to cancel some date. I said ok, and told her if she had any ideas for what we should do to let me know. That's an example of how I set up a dynamic requesting cooperation. Except with this girl, I haven't told her how liberated I am yet, so she's more hesitant. Which is fine. But I am still laying a groundwork with her that says I expect active participation on her end, as opposed to passive going along with what I say.

Does this help? Let me know if a few more examples would help.

doesnt it come off as kinda wussy if you want her to take initiative too? Sometimes girls won't take initiative even if they're really into you, cause thats the guy's job. Then again, saying "the way i do things is we gotta both put something in to get something out" or whatever is pretty badass

MisterMcGee, I know what you mean. Say a guy is too afraid to approach, ask for a #, ask a girl out, go for the kiss and so forth, yes, he will appear wussy. Because he is. I don't ask women to actively participate because I am too scared to do all those things myself. I ask them to participate because that's what normal, healthy people do who are communicating well. I agree that many in society believe it is the guy's job to do all this work. I also agree that many in society make this true through their actions, in other words, when guys do all the work, they make this stereotype true. But, I have found that women are happy to do some of the work if I set up the right conditions. I also find that I like when they do some of the work, because it's less that I have to do myself. Again, that goes back to my metaphor of building a house.

You're absolutely right, and you've hit on a central point, when you say that women believe this stuff is a guy's job. They will not take action because they believe guys want to do this. But if you ask them to participate, and you set up the right conditions, I have seen women take action. It's pretty great!

I agree with you too - this idea is really badass, I love it! I am only beginning to explore its immense power.

Izza

 

[izza]

I'm always up for theory. Interesting post. I enjoy reading and writing and it is obvious you do as well from this post and although it is enjoyable, I think you are attempting to rediscover the wheel here. Cooperation is not a seperate entity from attraction or rapport but rather a latent feature when the levels are high enough.

High Attraction = Cooperation (if only for a short period of time)
High Rapport = Cooperation
Low Attraction= No cooperation
Low Rapport = No Cooperation
Med Rapport & Med. Attraction = Cooperation

Quote:
Cooperation begins with rapport and compliance but they are not the same.
But later in this thread when responding to WC2, you concede it starts with attraction...

Quote:
But in general, picking up women is easier if they are actively, independently, working toward the same goal. And this is possible.
Yes...through enough attraction and/or rapport. High attraction is why celebrities and sportstars make out like bandits. High rapport is why so many people have internet relationships that they say lead 'straight to the bed' when unbeknownst to them, they actually have been building deeper and deeper rapport chatting online.

Quote:
Some examples from this week: I was too busy to call this girl I just met this week, but she just called me to ask me out (I couldn't go). It was one less thing I had to think about because she did it for me. Also this week, I didn't have to number close a girl, I just asked her to contact me. She just emailed me yesterday and today. Last week, a girl came up with a good activity for us to do. I appreciated having one less thing to do.
They are COOPERATING because you have enough rapport/attraction

Quote:
I don't mind doing work, but I just set up the expectation, RIGHT AWAY, that I expect about 50-50 input. I expect not compliance, but cooperation. I don't have time to micro-manage every detail for lots of women. I need them to act, not sit and wait by the phone.
This is setting the frame and her buying into it. Basic NLP stuff. It can be as long as having a deep conversation and then asking questions about her beliefs and going from there, or as simple as "Okay you aren't one of those girls who <insert character trait you don't want her to possess>" and watch her jump through the hoops like a circus animal.

Quote:
I would also argue that compliance is ok, but compliance is not great. Rapport is good, but rapport is not enough. Cooperation makes dating so very easy. So while I see guys trying to "fight her defenses", and calling her a million times to set up a date, I just have to ask if there's an easier way.
These guys calling a million times don't have enough rapport/attraction. Once again... I do not believe there is a 3rd wheel missing here. Check out this post http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showpos...96&postcount=3 It illustrates someone who gets rapport quickly by thinking like the target and making a statement that flows with the target's state of mind. As a result they CO-OPERATE with him and give him free stuff.

Quote:
Moreover, the precise techniques I have named for removing blocks to cooperation, whatever you want to call it, are not in Mystery Method or the notion of rapport as most people here talk about it.
Most people who talk about rapport in detail talk about what you have said. Here is one example off the top of my head: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthr...threadid=37719

And if by precise techniques you mean the following, I'll break em down


Quote:
1.) Invite women to hit on you, call you, suggest ideas, kiss you. Invite women to make seduction a 50-50 effort. Surprisingly often, they are happy to cooperate once requested.
aka build attraction by being the prize
2.) Show women sexual openness and satisfaction. Talk about sex openly and vulnerably. They will trust more and more that you are not a rapist and will feel safer cooperating.
talk about sex openly aka build rapport on sex
3.) Learn to be emotionally secure and satisfied. The best way to prevent giving off a non-clingy vibe is to demonstrate mature emotional expression. In other words, talk about your emotions in an interesting and mature way. Talking about emotions maturely and interestingly is the best way to demonstrate that you are not clingy.
"talk about your emotions..."?Alex I'd like to solve the riddle. What is building rapport for $100.
4.) As for the slut part, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER make a comment that degrades women wanting or having sex. Compliment the courage of women who do what they want sexually. Sprinkle this respect for sexual women liberally into conversation, at pretty much every juncture. It would be hard to express respect for sexual women too often.
aka after creating sexual rapport, don't say something that isn't congruent with it
To summarize, all of your 'techniques' on building cooperation are ways to build rapport or attraction. Ipso Facto, the more rapport or attraction the more she cooperates.

I'm not going to argue with you about words. You can define these words however you want. I have never claimed to be inventing anything. I'm just offering a tool, a new way of looking at things, using different terminology. If you don't find it useful for you, or you find it redundant, that's fine with me.

As for some of the specific points, yes I agree that attraction is a prerequisite for her proactively picking you up. I agree that rapport is a prerequisite for her proactively picking you up.

What do I mean by proactively picking you up? See my example I gave to slaog. I mean her regularly taking initiative, her escalating.

Keep in mind, my "technique" assumes she's attracted, it assumes you have rapport. My technique is LIBERATING her to act and asking her to escalate. If you think that sexually liberating a woman is implied in the concept of "rapport", that's fine with me. I just really don't see it that way.

If you believe that "Med Rapport & Med. Attraction = Cooperation" - in other words, her calling you, her approaching you, her picking a good date, her kissing you, her suggesting sex, then I think we have met VERY different women in our lifetime. And when I talk about cooperation, I don't mean "for a short period of time", I mean from the getgo, and from then on.

There are rare women who will do this if they meet a guy who seems liberated enough. But I have observed that most women need a bit of encouragement. It is very easy to liberate her. It takes less than five minutes, and it makes a big difference. I find that most women, once I have helped liberate them, explicitly shown that I understand the injustice that women face, they take action.

I understand that I'm building attraction and rapport by liberating women. I understand that they would not initiate things with me unless they were attracted, or compliant, or felt rapport. I understand that rapport is part of what tells her that you aren't going to rape her. But I have met very few women who take sustained action, who initiate and escalate based on attraction or rapport alone.

The ingredient I am trying to add here is liberation. In the current dating protocol, men do 90% of the initial work. The piece that I haven't seen in anybody's post so far is the fact that if you liberate women, it changes the entire protocol of dating in your favor.

Best,
Izza

 

[ready123]

I used to tell a girl "It's ok, I dont judge" when I sensed a girl's ASD kick in in during casual conversation (aka she's showing reservations about something "slutty" she did in her past. I meant it too. Funny how much more sexually comfortable it made her with me. This is along the lines of what you mean by liberation

Thing is most guys on this board don't understand women's social conditioning and view her as someone they have to con into bed

 

[slaog]

Slaog - let me share a few brief examples.

Again, I mentioned that my technique is to liberate women from societal restraints (or at least show that I don't believe in them), prove that I am a good-hearted guy, and also request her participation. I find this is a great combination. Once these things are in place, women have been really helpful.

So let me share some setup. I met some girl at a yoga class. We got to talking about sex stuff, and I told her how messed up our societal judgments against women who want sex are. I told her a lot about my life. We went for a walk. At the end of the night, we just said we'd be in touch. Her friend's friend friend has my email address. Two days later, I got an email from her. So already, had taken a proactive step of contacting me. This saved me work because I was busy and didn't have time to go through the friend of friend of friend. Then, we talked, I invited her somewhere, she couldn't make it. Then she invited me to a burlesque show - not only inviting me out, but setting up a sexual dynamic. I wasn't able to make it, but we have an obvious sexual dynamic, one that she helped set up.

So I think that's a good example of how, once she knew that I didn't share society's stupid judgments against women, that I am a good person (because I told her about my life), and I asked her to contact me, she did. And I made it clear through various means, not really consciously, that I expect her to do her part in facilitating whatever we do.

The other day, a girl had to cancel some date. I said ok, and told her if she had any ideas for what we should do to let me know. That's an example of how I set up a dynamic requesting cooperation. Except with this girl, I haven't told her how liberated I am yet, so she's more hesitant. Which is fine. But I am still laying a groundwork with her that says I expect active participation on her end, as opposed to passive going along with what I say.

Does this help? Let me know if a few more examples would help.

So if the attraction is strong enough you can 'encourage' them to cooperate with you by letting them know what your beliefs are?

 

[macallik]

As for some of the specific points, yes I agree that attraction is a prerequisite for her proactively picking you up. I agree that rapport is a prerequisite for her proactively picking you up.

Alright, that's all I needed to hear. Pce

 

[izza]

So if the attraction is strong enough you can 'encourage' them to cooperate with you by letting them know what your beliefs are?

That's a good summary of it - although I would frame it slightly differently. You may have meant it this way, I just want to make sure. Nobody wants to feel powerless. Even women don't necessarily like waiting around for sex on someone else's calendar. Women have crushes, guys they like, but women feel afraid to take initiative. Many are even afraid to appear to initiative.

So long as the girl is already attracted to me, I am not creating or encouraging a desire in her to take action. I'm releasing her desire to take action.

I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page. I apologize if I said something you already know.

Alright, that's all I needed to hear. Pce

Ok... I suspect you're still in the attraction --> women automatically taking initiative mindset, but ok. And I might be wrong.

I used to tell a girl "It's ok, I dont judge" when I sensed a girl's ASD kick in in during casual conversation (aka she's showing reservations about something "slutty" she did in her past. I meant it too. Funny how much more sexually comfortable it made her with me. This is along the lines of what you mean by liberation

Thing is most guys on this board don't understand women's social conditioning and view her as someone they have to con into bed

Exactly. It's amazing what a difference it makes to reassure the girl of non-judgment. Following from what you said, I think the earlier you clarify your views on sex stuff like this, the better. Moreover, I am finding that when I liberate women, it changes everything people on this board expect about dating. We expect a girl to act passive and restrained. And I'm not finding that at all now that I have unlocked the door.

I particularly like what you said about guys not understanding women's social conditioning. You put it perfectly. And I also agree, many try to con women into bed. What a shame. Thanks for the feedback! If you can think of any more ways to "liberate women", let me know.

 

[Maxtro]

Izza,

You do a great job of explain what cooperation is but you haven't explained how to do it.

So how do you get a girl to cooperate? What do you say?
How do you know when to try to get her to cooperate?
What do you do if she doesn't cooperate?

 

[DonGorgon]

Thanks for the reply. I agree that attraction is a prerequisite to cooperation.

And in guys, attraction does equal cooperation.

But in women, I would argue, it doesn't. But that's because guys who need to domineer, clingy guys, sexual violence (1/4 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime), and the slut label instill a fear in women of appearing pro-active to get sex. There may be other reasons too. But the bottom line: most women are willing to comply when attracted but most are afraid to take action, to initiate things in order to get sex.

Many guys fail to understand that the risks to women who take action to get sex are not insignificant, and much greater than the risks for men.

Although if you still disagree, I would be curious to hear what your reasoning is, and how you think about these things.

Best,
Izza

Females are offered sex, begged for sex and forced to have sex from veery early ages so for them its very different that for men who wish for sex begg for sex and most times get denied sex from a very early age.. Women dont have to obsess over it or work hard for it so for them its more about fun and fantasy and the moment... if you can turn her on then she wont even be thinking she will only be feeling... and that is your best modus. women dont want to feel like they are co operating.. they want an emotional rush that makes them feel almost high..

 

[izza]

Izza,

You do a great job of explain what cooperation is but you haven't explained how to do it.

So how do you get a girl to cooperate? What do you say?

What do you do if she doesn't cooperate?

Hi Maxtro,

Thanks for asking. Those are great questions.

Let me clarify how I frame the problem:

Women don't necessarily like waiting around for sex on someone else's calendar. Women have crushes, guys they like, but women feel afraid to take initiative. Nobody wants to feel powerless. But Many are afraid to even appear to take initiative.

When a girl is attracted to me, I do not create a desire in her to take action. I release her desire to take action.

What it takes will be different from girl to girl. But in general, I use a four-pronged method to release her cooperation.

For women here are the main blocks to her releasing her cooperation:
1.) Prey ProtocolThe current protocol is that women are like prey who must be chased. If you replace an expectation of being prey with an expectation of teamwork, women will work with you, rather than running away or being a challenge.

Many women hesitate to facilitate sex because they believe most guys want to chase, but do not want to be chased. Some guys are turned off by a girl who comes on too hard. Some guys don't feel comfortable unless they're "dominating". Besides, it is always safer and more empowering in some sense to be chased than to chase. So the girl doesn't want to turn off the guy and it's safer and rewarding to be chased anyway.
2.) Sexual violence. Sexual violence still pervades our society. Women are afraid of being raped for giving "the wrong signs" to guys they barely know. Fear does not motivate women to be too helpful.
3.) Clingy guys. Clingy guys take cooperation the wrong way. Some women (not necessarily all women and not necessarily all conventionally beautiful women) have had a bad experience with clingy guys who took some facilitation from girl as an invitation to, say, propose marriage. So women hesitate to cooperate for fear of clinginess.
4.) Slut label. This is the paramount reason: there is a stigma against women who like sex and work to facilitate sex. Many in society degrade them as sluts. Women want to be desireable to men, and can't find respect as a "slut." So many women are cautious about cooperating to have sex.

I recommend four things you can do with words very quickly that unblock all four.

1.) Change the protocolInvite women to hit on you, call you, suggest ideas, kiss you. Invite women to make seduction a 50-50 effort. Surprisingly often, they are happy to cooperate once requested.
2.) Live openly. Show women sexual openness and satisfaction. Talk about sex openly and vulnerably. They will trust more and more that you are not a rapist and will feel safer cooperating. Others have noted that this solution is basically building rapport or trust.
3.) Live and let live. Learn to be emotionally secure and satisfied. The best way to prevent giving off a non-clingy vibe is to demonstrate mature emotional expression. In other words, talk about your emotions in an interesting and mature way. Talking about emotions maturely and interestingly is the best way to demonstrate that you are not clingy.

You asked about what to do if she's not actively cooperating. You respect her decision! That's part of not being clingy but also being proactive. It's a difficult balance - but it is possible to be persistent without being clingy. I see way too many guys who torch situations where they could have succeeded by just respecting the girl and giving her time.

This is a HUGE mentality shift for women. Some will do it right away. Some really great women have been waiting for some guy to come along with this mentality. Some will take more time.

4.) Become non-judgmental about sex. As for the slut part, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER make a comment that degrades women wanting or having sex. Compliment the courage of women who do what they want sexually. Sprinkle this respect for sexual women liberally into conversation, at pretty much every juncture. It would be hard to express respect for sexual women too often.

Express admiration for women who do what they want.

An example from last night: most women I meet, when discussing sex stuff, will make offhand judgments about sexual women. Keep in mind that for a woman, calling other women sluts or ho's establishes you as above them in purity. So, I usually have several opportunities in every conversation where I talk about anything sexual, to establish my non-judgmentalism.

So from last night, a girl called some girl a slut. I replied, I like a liberated woman. Another was talking about streaking. I told her I think it's really great to be so free with her body. I added I think it's a shame that so many guys act like they've never seen a naked body before, and take pictures, and generally make life hard for the naked girl.

Guys, if we act like we've seen a naked body before, women will hesitate less to get naked...

Nobody wants to be photographed by guys who act like they're going to sell the pictures on XXX sites.

How do you know when to try to get her to cooperate?

When I think she's attracted to me, that's when I start. Or at least, when I'm attracted to her. To be honest, I don't really wait to think she's attracted to me. I start right when I feel chemistry.

What do you do if she doesn't cooperate?

I do my part, I know that some women take time. I also ask directly for her to do something. She usually does. I have good results asking women to call me actually - I don't do that often, but it usually works. Again, this is after I've shown her that I welcome her participation. I don't view her as prey but as a partner.

Does that help?

Izza

 

[izza]

Females are offered sex, begged for sex and forced to have sex from veery early ages so for them its very different that for men who wish for sex begg for sex and most times get denied sex from a very early age.. Women dont have to obsess over it or work hard for it so for them its more about fun and fantasy and the moment... if you can turn her on then she wont even be thinking she will only be feeling... and that is your best modus. women dont want to feel like they are co operating.. they want an emotional rush that makes them feel almost high..

Hi Don Gorgon,

Women work pretty hard to have sex too - but it's a different kind of work. I'm sure you could name a number of things they do. Most of it is trying to look good, and if they are offered sex, making sure it won't tarnish their reputation.

But I think you bring up a really good point:

[women] want an emotional rush that makes them feel almost high.

Most women have never been asked to participate in their own seduction by someone who won't judge them at all. I have found that the women I have asked to participate have gotten a huge emotional rush from doing it. Like you said, they are so used to being prey that they have never tried to take a direct step to get a guy before. Most feel nervous but also exhilirated, like a roller-coaster. They are doing something they've always wanted to do, but have never been able before.

There is a huge emotional rush that comes with this sort of releasing their desires. I have found, the women in my life love it. They especially love the feeling of partnership (as opposed to battle) that I set up right away.

Izza

 

[DonGorgon]

Hi Don Gorgon,

Women work pretty hard to have sex too - but it's a different kind of work. I'm sure you could name a number of things they do. Most of it is trying to look good, and if they are offered sex, making sure it won't tarnish their reputation.

But I think you bring up a really good point:

Most women have never been asked to participate in their own seduction by someone who won't judge them at all. I have found that the women I have asked to participate have gotten a huge emotional rush from doing it. Like you said, they are so used to being prey that they have never tried to take a direct step to get a guy before. Most feel nervous but also exhilirated, like a roller-coaster. They are doing something they've always wanted to do, but have never been able before.

There is a huge emotional rush that comes with this sort of releasing their desires. I have found, the women in my life love it. They especially love the feeling of partnership (as opposed to battle) that I set up right away.

Izza

True but ur going to deep.. at 2am when the bar is closing women aint thinking like that...lol and they are usually out numbered by men 10 to one. and often have to run from desperate drunk males.. oh and they will only chase 1% of males , like brad pitt etc..

 

[izza]

True but ur going to deep.. at 2am when the bar is closing women aint thinking like that...lol and they are usually out numbered by men 10 to one. and often have to run from desperate drunk males.. oh and they will only chase 1% of males , like brad pitt etc..

Trust me, I do not have the looks of 1% of males - a bit too curvaceous for that! And women chase me plenty, but I remove the blocks.

Also, I don't hit the bar scenes. I don't know how this plays there. You're probably right. In general, I find the bars tend to set up a really superficial dynamic - although people are looking to hook up, I have a harder time getting women outside of the protocol in this context.

I tend to meet women on the bus - and these days, among friends. You might be right about the end of the day at the bars. Although I still think this stuff could work, even then.

Izza