Breaking old habits is a real *****. I'm in desperate need of suggestions.

[C-quenced]

A few weeks ago I came to the conclusion that I must take matters into my own hands in regards to the opposite sex. My personal satisfaction is no longer met by just relying on chance, probability or for circumstances to play in my favor. By now it's really beginning to become painfully irritating and causes me to feel caged up, severely limited in my own life and mentally asphyxiated as if I'm at the mercy of fate. This isn't how I want to live my life.

One of my bigger problems is my sub par social skills. We all know getting women becomes close to, if not, impossible without a core foundation in social skills and it's a faculty which I'd really like to improve on. If anyone has read any of my posts on http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=192021 then it becomes obvious that I've actually been trying however, I don't feel as if I'm doing enough. If I'm not getting out of the apartment (other then work) at least every other day and actually socializing then my old habits begin to set in and it'll seem as if all my efforts, regardless of how big or how small, are going to waste. Sad thing is I'm NOT even that afraid of interacting, or even approaching über attractive women. I'm actually more afraid of either not having anything to say or just saying something stupid which will reveal my incompetence at socializing. Any suggestions?

 

[FairShake]

One of my bigger problems is my sub par social skills. We all know getting women becomes close to, if not, impossible without a core foundation in social skills and it's a faculty which I'd really like to improve on. If anyone has read any of my posts on http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=192021 then it becomes obvious that I've actually been trying HOWEVER I don't feel as if I'm doing enough. If I'm not getting out of the apartment (other then work) at least every other day and actually socializing my old habits begin to set in and it'll seem as if all my efforts are going to waste. Any suggestions?

Unfortunately I think that, by 27 years old, you have developed all the social skills you are going to have. If you are behind there are way too many experiences that you have missed to ever catch up. In all honesty I think people that are socially awkward are born that way and die that way.

What you can do is be ok being awkward and weird. The way you put it, if you aren't getting out everyday you fall into your old traps. I think your problem might be social anxiety. Unlike 27 year old social awkwardness your social anxiety can be cured or at least lessened. There are professionals out there in every city that use a technique called cognitive behavioral therapy to rearrange your negative thinking that leads to anxiety.

My guess is you are paralyzed in social situations because you are aware your social skills are subpar and your are worried about making a mistake. What you will eventually come to find out is that people make mistakes all the time. What sets you apart is you allow your mistakes to own you and keep you from enjoying yourself. I can tell you from personal experience the socially awkward guy who is mellow and accepting of himself (and others) can penetrate a social network. It takes work but it's worth it mistakes and all.

 

[TonyBaloney]

Fairshake,

A very good and true message.

Perfectly simplified.

I would agree that you have to accept yourself warts n all, and rather than turn inward, notice things about other folk - lots of people stutter, speak broken English, forget things, go urrrmmm in conversations....etc etc, but do we hate them for it? Or remember these details forevermore? I used to suffer from social anxiety but kinda grew out of it; self acceptance is the main thing to acknowledge.

I would suggest to the OP to try talking to people in vastly different situations to what you are used to, in places where you dont normally go. Learn about eye contact and moving your eyes alot (alot of people have problems bb/cos they fix a stare) You must be able to keep eye contact, but easily move your eyes from side to side. You must listen to people and agree with them and charm them. Get folks at least believing you like them, and that makes all the difference.

Always good to make stoopid jokes with women, and then laugh at yourself - important!!!

Good luck OP!!!!

 

[TonyBaloney]

Fairshake,

A very good and true message.

Perfectly simplified.

I would agree that you have to accept yourself warts n all, and rather than turn inward, notice things about other folk - lots of people stutter, speak broken English, forget things, go urrrmmm in conversations....etc etc, but do we hate them for it? Or remember these details forevermore? I used to suffer from social anxiety but kinda grew out of it; self acceptance is the main thing to acknowledge.

I would suggest to the OP to try talking to people in vastly different situations to what you are used to, in places where you dont normally go. Learn about eye contact and moving your eyes alot (alot of people have problems bb/cos they fix a stare) You must be able to keep eye contact, but easily move your eyes from side to side. You must listen to people and agree with them and charm them. Get folks at least believing you like them, and that makes all the difference.

Always good to make stoopid jokes with women, and then laugh at yourself - important!!!

Good luck OP!!!!

 

[TonyBaloney]

Fairshake,

A very good and true message.

Perfectly simplified.

I would agree that you have to accept yourself warts n all, and rather than turn inward, notice things about other folk - lots of people stutter, speak broken English, forget things, go urrrmmm in conversations....etc etc, but do we hate them for it? Or remember these details forevermore? I used to suffer from social anxiety but kinda grew out of it; self acceptance is the main thing to acknowledge.

I would suggest to the OP to try talking to people in vastly different situations to what you are used to, in places where you dont normally go. Learn about eye contact and moving your eyes alot (alot of people have problems bb/cos they fix a stare) You must be able to keep eye contact, but easily move your eyes from side to side. You must listen to people and agree with them and charm them. Get folks at least believing you like them, and that makes all the difference.

Always good to make stoopid jokes with women, and then laugh at yourself - important!!!

Good luck OP!!!!

 

[MrJibbles]

Sad thing is I'm NOT even that afraid of interacting, or even approaching über attractive women. I'm actually more afraid of either not having anything to say or just saying something stupid which will reveal my incompetence at socializing. Any suggestions?

In that sense, you have anxiety about anxiety. Fear of fear, if you will. One method I have heard of addressing such issues is a psychological coping skill known as paradoxical intention, developed by famous psychologist Victor Frankl. Assume that the conversation or social situation will go as badly as possible, that you will fail miserably, blank out, everything will go wrong, and possess this attitude when approaching a girl. You may find that this will actually, ironically enough, have the opposite effect: your anxiety will lessen considering your expectations are, in the short term, extremely low. This has been shown to work in many instances of anxiety by a wide variety of studies done by various psychologists.

Of course, this is a very unorthodox way of approaching this, and may not work for everyone. Like the previous poster mentioned, cognitive behavioural therapy can be excellent not only for addressing anxiety, but even depression. It is also more widely socially-accepted within the psychiatric community. If social anxiety is STILL really bad after therapy, I would suggest maybe even going on medication.

For me personally, social anxiety crippled my life so badly that I had a breakdown and had to go on meds. Therapy was not enough for me. Something like valium, klonapin, or beta-blockers or even antidepressants such as Prozac or Wellbutrin may also help. I am not a doctor though, so I'd seek professional help first before taking this path.

Drinking can help, too, but you can't be drunk 24/7 and you may end up becoming an alcoholic if you follow the same path that I have mentioned in some of my other threads.

I would say the previous poster is right to a certain extent. I can't help but feel that genetics play a large role in social awkwardness and social anxiety. Try to accumulate all the social skills you can, but know your limits and don't try too hard to become someone you're not. You can only bang your head against the wall so many times...

OP, you may not only have social anxiety, but may be introverted as well. Physiologically speaking, you may just be wired to not talk all that much in social scenarios. You don't have to be the boisterous, gregarious outgoing blabbermouth life of the party to get a girl. There are millions of fish in the sea. Find a quiet girl if you must.

 

[bigneil]

27 is prime for a man. Learn how to eat right and work out and you'll get better and better for at least the next 15 years.

 

[C-quenced]

If you are behind there are way too many experiences that you have missed to ever catch up.

Whats wrong with creating new experiences?

What you can do is be ok being awkward and weird.

I totally agree. Awkward and weird can also be a matter of opinion, right?

I would suggest to the OP to try talking to people in vastly different situations to what you are used to, in places where you dont normally go.

Any suggestions on where I may be able to go? I think getting the **** out of my apartment is half the battle.

You must listen to people and agree with them and charm them. Get folks at least believing you like them, and that makes all the difference.

I'm actually pretty good at doing this.

 

[FairShake]

Whats wrong with creating new experiences?

They have to be relatable. You are the sum of your parts and people like parts like them. If you're life has been very different from most people it will be harder to relate to you. Not that it doesn't happen.

And friendships are about creating new experiences so nothing wrong there.

I totally agree. Awkward and weird can also be a matter of opinion, right?

I guess depending on degree. It's pretty universal that I'm awkward and weird. Even my best friend agrees. Hell, even my mom does. It used to bother me until I realized I wasn't cut out to be normal.

So I'm awkward, weird, and mellow. I let other people do the talking and be the center of attention instead of showing off and amusing myself. Pretty standard social rules go a long way towards getting the respect of people you interact with. You may not make friends or fvck all of them but you will find interpersonal relations alot easier.

 

[C-quenced]

Drinking can help, too, but you can't be drunk 24/7 and you may end up becoming an alcoholic if you follow the same path that I have mentioned in some of my other threads.

I wanna avoid alcohol as much as possible.

I would say the previous poster is right to a certain extent. I can't help but feel that genetics play a large role in social awkwardness and social anxiety. Try to accumulate all the social skills you can, but know your limits and don't try too hard to become someone you're not. You can only bang your head against the wall so many times...

The last thing I wanna do is to try and be someone I'm not. I don't have the energy for that.

Physiologically speaking, you may just be wired to not talk all that much in social scenarios.

This might be the case. I'm generally a very quiet person but it would also be unfair to say that others (alpha males, musicians, party animals etc.) don't enjoy my company. I find it incredibly easy to get along with extroverts. In fact I'd rather have them in my company then some bitter introverted computer geek.

You don't have to be the boisterous, gregarious outgoing blabbermouth life of the party to get a girl. There are millions of fish in the sea. Find a quiet girl if you must.

Lol that's a good way of putting it. But again this isn't what I wanna become. It's just not who I am. I wanna be more natural in how I approach this.

There are millions of fish in the sea. Find a quiet girl if you must.

Quiet doesn't make her anymore or less different from the rest. It only means she's quieter. It could also mean that she's incredibly boring

27 is prime for a man. Learn how to eat right and work out and you'll get better and better for at least the next 15 years.

Prime for what exactly?

 

[ChalengeGuyFan]

Unfortunately I think that, by 27 years old, you have developed all the social skills you are going to have. If you are behind there are way too many experiences that you have missed to ever catch up. In all honesty I think people that are socially awkward are born that way and die that way.

This must be true; a guy on the Internet said it!

 

[FairShake]

This must be true; a guy on the Internet said it!

You still have 3 years.

Edit: But seriously, you are about 20 years behind if you're trying to work on your social skills at 27. Most people figure that stuff out at age 7 or so. If you don't there's probably a hard-to-change reason.

It's far better to become cool with that fact.

 

[sighsigh]

Nm.

 

[sighsigh]

Unfortunately I think that, by 27 years old, you have developed all the social skills you are going to have.

Fortunately, it isn't that simple.

You need to make a distinction between 1.) your preference for social interaction (do you want to socially interact? this is measured by the introversion-extraversion scale) and 2.) your social skills (how good are you at socially interacting?).

Any combination of 1.) and 2.) are possible. The core of both are determined at an early age. I'd say 1.) is hardly malleable after an early age, but 2.) is malleable after an early age to a good extent.

Why? It's obvious to me. Because 2.) is a skill. And skills are learnable (through practice). It is determined at any early age whether or not I become the next world chess champion, but not that I may or may not become a damn good chess player. Socializing does NOT have a high skill ceiling... I'd say it's way easier to get good at socializing than to get good at chess.

Look at the relationship between 1.) and 2.). There are almost no extraverts who have bad social skills. This is because extraverts get a lot of practice (if you want to socially interact, you undoubtedly will). There are tons of introverts who have horrible social skills, and this is because they get no practice. But there are also introverts who have fine or excellent social skills, and that's because they put the effort in to practice and improve them (or, more likely, because they are just forced to, e.g. they have a job which requires a lot of socializing).

Unfortunately, it is difficult for an introvert to practice, because a.) no one wants to do what they don't want to do, and b.) it's difficult to find where to begin: most introverts don't have potential opportunities to socialize anyways (as in, they aren't being invited to parties every other day). A bit of a catch-22 here, really: they need social skills to get social skills.

My suggestion? Obviously, practice as much as possible, because that is the only way to improve. One way to find practice opportunities is to start doing a ton of volunteering. Take all the opportunities you can (e.g. if you get invited to a work party, go).

 

[FairShake]

Why? It's obvious to me. Because 2.) is a skill. And skills are learnable (through practice). It is determined at any early age whether or not I become the next world chess champion, but not that I may or may not become a damn good chess player. Socializing does NOT have a high skill ceiling... I'd say it's way easier to get good at socializing than to get good at chess.

I disagree with that. Maybe you have decent social skills but for those that aren't born with that ability it is extremely difficult to learn this stuff. It doesn't jibe with what is going on in our heads. Add to that the anxiety that isn't involved in chess and you have a very difficult skill to learn.

Look at the relationship between 1.) and 2.). There are almost no extraverts who have bad social skills. This is because extraverts get a lot of practice (if you want to socially interact, you undoubtedly will).

Did they become introverts because of bad social skills? I can say that, for me, that was case for awhile. Nowadays i am pretty extroverted but hardly socially savvy. Alot of my friends are the same way.

I definitely think change is possible. If you are one of those "Cool once they get to know me" types then your "skills" can definitely be polished. It's all a matter of relaxing and getting rid of that anxiety. But if you are the kind of person who is annoying and/or weird even among your friends and family then I don't think you can change that much in your advancing years.

 

[sighsigh]

I disagree with that. Maybe you have decent social skills but for those that aren't born with that ability it is extremely difficult to learn this stuff. It doesn't jibe with what is going on in our heads.

I think we need another distinction here: 1.) the difficulty of social skills, and 2.) social phobia - a mental disorder.

It's possible that you are extraverted (you want and enjoy social interaction), and that you have excellent social skills, but you have a degree of social phobia which still prevents you from socially interacting (ranging from mild shyness to full-blown social anxiety disorder). This is just some error in brain chemistry, and can sometimes be corrected by meds.

When you say 'it is extremely difficult to learn this stuff,' maybe you mean social phobia is preventing you from learning.

What is a skill... just a bunch of relationships right? If X then Y... that sort of thing. I'm trying to be as open-minded as possible, and it just doesn't seem that learning social skills is all that rigorous. Not in the same way that, say, learning general relativity is rigorous.

I could be wrong, but I think the reason a person may say learning social skills is difficult is because there are so many barriers in the way that prevent learning: the fact that you don't want to do it, the fact that it's difficult to find practice, or the fact that a mental disorder prevents you from practicing (this is a common and big one). If little/none of these barriers apply to you, then unless you are of sub-par intellect I don't think you should have a problem learning social skills. But again, I could be wrong.

 

[FairShake]

If little/none of these barriers apply to you, then unless you are of sub-par intellect I don't think you should have a problem learning social skills. But again, I could be wrong.

I hope I'm not subpar intellectually. I'm a nurse and people could get hurt!

I think your mental disorder argument is onto something but I think of it as a matter of degree. I don't think it's "Asperger's" or "Not Aspergers" but an entire spectrum of awkward nerdity. I am awkward but aware of it and can temper most of my awkward points simply by being quiet and mellow. Perhaps those are my social skills since it allows me to get along with just about anyone and even have an above average number of nerdy friends that keep me occupied. But I'll never be a cool guy. I will never be able to hang with all the coolest people. But I know that and adapt and play my game.

Edit: Some people are born with low IQs. I think the best thing a less naturally intelligent person can do for, say, a career is figure out something they can do and do it to the best of their ability. I believe that one's social ability, much like one's intelligence or athletic ability is innate. However, unlike intelligence and athletic ability alot of us don't recognize our limits and get depressed or anxious over them. If we recognized these limits, embraced them, and played our game to the best of our ability I think social anxiety and depression might be less of a problem.

 

[Quiksilver]

Need some friends, and need to get out more with them.

Play a sport or something, hit the gym and start convos.

Anywhere where decent guys are (not other chumps). Meet them and then you will begin meeting their social circles which will include women.

 

[wait_out]

C-quenced, having loyal friends with interests you share will help get you out of your apartment. They might even literally show up and drag you out. So keep working towards that. Also, don't put so much pressure on yourself as a result of the boot camp, everyone has different life situations. If you have expectations that aren't achieved, you will discourage yourself. Don't consider it all-or-nothing rather than looking at your progress, this is a recipe to quit in any challenge in life, I can link to more about it if you wish.

Fairshake, you might want to create a new thread out of courtesy, I understand why you're defending your theory but you're also unfortunately derailing the OPs thread.