Boundary crew needed...

[Atom Smasher]

Women need your boundaries to be clearly verbally expressed. They live in a universe of gray and they have no mental substance or structure apart from the rules of their herd and their man.

The herd rules are conveyed to her covertly. You rules cannot be understood by her covertly and therefore have to be verbally expressed.

 

[RangerMIke]

Okay.... it seems we are confusing women we 'date' with 'girl friends'. You should have no expectations with women you are dating. She dates you and hooks up with other dudes... so what... you are doing the same. A girl friend implies exclusivity. And guess what... it is the woman, not you that gets to decide this. If a woman is in a relationship with a guy she isn't going to want to hang out and flirt with other guys. If she is doing this then she's really not serious about the relationship.

Just walk down the street in a mall or whatever. Try to make eye contact with women. You can ALWAYS tell the women that are available and you should approach by how they respond. A woman that is in a relationship she's happy in will NOT respond to you. Same is true in bars and elsewhere.

Chick-like discussions of boundries just makes you look weak. If you notice she is flirting with other dudes and you feel like you just have to say something then say this, in a funny playful way.... "You want to be my girlfiend or my f*** buddy." Hell I've done this before and you might be surprised how she responds. I've had monogamous relationships turn to f*** buddy status... and that is fine.

Real men don't obsess over 'relationships' because the cold hard truth is that we don't have any control over this absent our just walking away from it. WOMEN decide if you are in a monogamous relationship not us. So unless you are prepared to just walk away she is driving the relationship bus.

 

[zekko]

Okay.... it seems we are confusing women we 'date' with 'girl friends'. You should have no expectations with women you are dating. She dates you and hooks up with other dudes... so what... you are doing the same. A girl friend implies exclusivity. And guess what... it is the woman, not you that gets to decide this. If a woman is in a relationship with a guy she isn't going to want to hang out and flirt with other guys. If she is doing this then she's really not serious about the relationship

Mike, these "boundary discussions" have been going on for a long time, so let me bring you up to speed a bit. For instance, you're right, we are specifically talking about exclusive relationships here. Also, our outlook is that you should always let the girl bring up the idea of becoming exclusive - she should approach YOU with the idea. She should bring up the "what are we?" discussion, that's the woman's arena.

Now, as far as her "hanging out and flirting" with other guys, usually when we talk about whether or not we have boundaries, we are talking about whether or not we think it is okay that she have male friends that she hangs out with one on one. Some guys won't put up with it, but many guys are perfectly okay with her hanging out with her male friends. It's totally up to the individual.

But it certainly is not true that a woman will automatically stop seeing their male friends (sometimes they are former boyfriends) if they are serious about a relationship. Some women will, some women won't. Personally, I am on the side of not putting up with it (as I think it can cause problems - if not now, then down the road). But not everyone is in agreement on that.

Just walk down the street in a mall or whatever. Try to make eye contact with women. You can ALWAYS tell the women that are available and you should approach by how they respond. A woman that is in a relationship she's happy in will NOT respond to you. Same is true in bars and elsewhere.

Actually, I find this not to be true. I think women who are in a relationship are maybe even MORE flirty than women who are not. Women who are in relationships are usually a lot more comfortable with men, and act accordingly. Some women in relationships like the attention because it validates that they are still sexually attractive to other men.

I find that nearly all women are friendly and flirty to some extent, and most women ARE in relationships. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will bang you, however. The good ones will shut things down long before it gets to that point.

 

[tryst type]

Here's my issue with boundaries, more so very explicit boundaries.

1. It's too much work, I like simplicity and allowing the woman to be discerning
2. When there is high IL they seem to work great, when the same IL has lowered your boundaries become more sh!t tests and ultimately an easy out for the woman.
3. Laying them down at the start of exclusivity just comes off too fake, like "follow these rules and all will be good" for that reason my approach is different

Now do I set boundaries? Yes, but it's subtle and in agreeable suggestion by taiyuu_otoko: "IDEALLY, you should know your boundaries EARLY on, and drop subtle hints on the first or second date. The way you communicate, the way you walk, act, even talk should give off the "vibe" of your boundaries.

Like if you're on your first or second date, out in public, and you see a girl with plenty of guys, just causally mention something like:

"Wow, I could never be in a relationship with a girl who hangs out with guy friends. I've had too many problems with stuff like that in the past. Never again."

The idea is that whenever possible, you need to get her to QUALIFY HERSELF to you, ON HER OWN, based on the signals she's picked up from on what's acceptable and not acceptable."

In this fashion you can drop as many boundaries as you like at any single time in the relationship, because the approach is subtle and not directly about her.

This is exactly what I do on top of simply (at the early stages of dating/relationship) I'll just ask "tell me, what do you consider to be the most important thing in a healthy relationship?" Almost always they'll say things like honesty, no cheating, etc typical responses. Then they redirect the question to me and I respond "It's easy, respect my time, energy, space, and property and everything else will go swimmingly"

Now I'm that vague because again, I leave it to their discretion. It's up to them to realize what's considered respectful or not, if they simply do not know and do something I consider disrespectful then it's a clear indicator they're either not mature enough for me, too ignorant, or simply don't care about the relationship. Which by that distinction lets me know I need to move on.

 

[zekko]

Here's my issue with boundaries, more so very explicit boundaries.

1. It's too much work, I like simplicity and allowing the woman to be discerning.

I like simplicity, and I find it much simpler to lay out my expectations at the beginning, and that way it isn't an issue again (or at least, it hasn't been for me).

2. When there is high IL they seem to work great, when the same IL has lowered your boundaries become more sh!t tests and ultimately an easy out for the woman.

If her interest drops she can go find someone else to date, I have no problem with that. But if she's going to be in a relationship with me it will be on the terms that I want, otherwise why should I bother? Bottom line: If she breaks my (very reasonable) boundaries, she gets dumped, I'm not going to stick around and play games with her.

Like if you're on your first or second date, out in public, and you see a girl with plenty of guys, just causally mention something like:

"Wow, I could never be in a relationship with a girl who hangs out with guy friends."

You say you are against setting boundaries explicitly, but you have just said almost word for word the way I set my boundary with my girlfriend (overtly and explicitly). See, I am not ashamed of my boundaries and I make no attempt to hide them. Why would I? Women want us to be ashamed of our expectations, but I will not be.

 

[tryst type]

You say you are against setting boundaries explicitly, but you have just said almost word for word the way I set my boundary with my girlfriend (overtly and explicitly). See, I am not ashamed of my boundaries and I make no attempt to hide them. Why would I? Women want us to be ashamed of our expectations, but I will not be.

By explicit I mean I don't lay things out directly to her, I use reminders given from my surroundings or movies we're currently watching etc to say I agree or disagree with that particular instance. Even on things I expect, like constant sex, if it's in a movie i'll say something like "it's hot when a woman wants that much bedroom time with her man" she gets the hint without me saying "I like constant sex if not I get bored" which essentially is a direct boundary

To me, it's subtle in my approach but I know she's getting the hint, thus to me it doesn't seem like I'm being explicit and overtly directed at her. If that makes any sense

 

[guru1000]

Women are intrinsically covert and subtle. Real MEN don't p*ssyfoot; they down the law overtly and directly, however, whenever, and wherever at their sole discretion. DJs are fearless with women, as men with abundance know that a harem is easily attainable and preferred as compared to the encumbrance of exclusivity. Contrary to beta conventions, DJs understand that exclusivity is not success; it's actually a hinderance, an immurement of sorts. What benefit does a DJ attain in relinquishing his harem to one woman??? What makes her so special? Think about it.

Given the foregoing context, capitulate your fear, as exclusivity is no prize. Accordingly, this is how men lay down the law should he sacrifice the real "prize," his harem:

"I am the king of my castle. Here are my rules. Follow them and I'll treat you like a princess. Violate them and I'll thank you, as my harem awaits."

That's it. Simple. No negotiations, no ambiguity, no fear, no anticipation/attachment to the outcome. Just living YOUR life on YOUR Terms devoid of fear, and looking forward to subsequent violations to enfranchise and exit such a fettering, unprepossessing convention of exclusivity.

Ironically, the greater your desire that she does violate said boundaries, the less likely she will. Your aversion/reluctance to exclusivity has a commensurate relationship with her degree of IL in you.

 

[zekko]

To me, it's subtle in my approach but I know she's getting the hint, thus to me it doesn't seem like I'm being explicit and overtly directed at her. If that makes any sense

Yes, I understood what you meant. Whatever works for you. But when it comes to certain things, I prefer to be plain and direct, especially when it comes to expectations. Because they ARE overtly directed at her.

DJs understand that exclusivity is not success; it's actually a hindrance, an immurement of sorts. What benefit does a DJ attain in relinquishing his harem to one woman???

I see it as a win/win. I can't say I agree that exclusivity is actually a hindrance, because if that were true, then why would anyone EVER get into an exclusive relationship? Personally, I prefer LTRs, especially at my age. I don't care to spend all my time chasing women. However, if I'm in a relationship, great. If the relationship ends, then I get to meet new and exciting women. So like I said, it's a win/win. But to make exclusivity worth it, she has to offer the right things.

 

[guru1000]

What you covet, you repel. What you disdain, chases you. The old SoSuave platitude " the one who holds the power in any relation is the one who desires the other the least."

DJism is a mindset. Thus, designating the "value" of exclusivity as a "hindrance"--whether or not it is--as opposed to a "win," will more likely tip the frame in your favor in all interactions. In such a context, who is the prize? Even if the goal were exclusivity, you're best adopting this "hindrance" line of thinking. Even better reason to delineate boundaries. What value do you get in return for acquiesce to this "hinderance"?

This is not to be confused with there being no advantages to exclusivity such as having more time to earn, to pursue other passions, children, etc. But, optimizing the context and frame via a superlative DJ mindset is your arsenal.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

You rules cannot be understood by her covertly and therefore have to be verbally expressed.

I think it's important to note they they should be expressed BOTH verbally and then by follow up action.

For example, let's say one of your boundaries is no texting while on dates.

The first time you see her texting, you need to specifically say:

"Excuse me, but I don't date girls that text while on a date."

THEN it's up to you to adhere STRICTLY to your stated boundaries.

If you never said anything, and simply got up and left when she started texting (in this particular example) then she'll have no idea WTF just happened.

I think it's also important to note that boundaries are PURELY SUBJECTIVE.

One man's red flags might be fine with other guys.

Arguing over HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES is a completely different discussion than the boundaries themselves.

If you make the mistake of assuming that all boundaries are society wide and therefore self-evident, you're just giving her rope to hang you with later on.

ALWAYS KNOW YOUR BOUNDARIES. Ever last one.

ALWAYS EXPRESS YOUR BOUNDARIES. As they are crossed the FIRST time.

ALWAYS ENFORCE YOUR BOUNDARIES. Without hesitation.

Do this and you'll have ZERO problems with ladies.

If you're shopping for a relationship, it's up to you to make sure ALL OF YOUR BOUNDARIES are explained and understood before you commit.

Otherwise you're asking for trouble.

 

[SeeThruIt]

I think it's important to note they they should be expressed BOTH verbally and then by follow up action.

For example, let's say one of your boundaries is no texting while on dates.

The first time you see her texting, you need to specifically say:

"Excuse me, but I don't date girls that text while on a date."

THEN it's up to you to adhere STRICTLY to your stated boundaries.

If you never said anything, and simply got up and left when she started texting (in this particular example) then she'll have no idea WTF just happened.

I think it's also important to note that boundaries are PURELY SUBJECTIVE.

One man's red flags might be fine with other guys.

Arguing over HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES is a completely different discussion than the boundaries themselves.

If you make the mistake of assuming that all boundaries are society wide and therefore self-evident, you're just giving her rope to hang you with later on.

ALWAYS KNOW YOUR BOUNDARIES. Ever last one.

ALWAYS EXPRESS YOUR BOUNDARIES. As they are crossed the FIRST time.

ALWAYS ENFORCE YOUR BOUNDARIES. Without hesitation.

Do this and you'll have ZERO problems with ladies.

If you're shopping for a relationship, it's up to you to make sure ALL OF YOUR BOUNDARIES are explained and understood before you commit.

Otherwise you're asking for trouble.

Perfect /thread

 

[Atom Smasher]

I think it's important to note they they should be expressed BOTH verbally and then by follow up action.

Exactly. You'll note in my previous posts that I'm constantly saying that boundaries must be backed up ruthlessly; with complete dispassion...just action, which almost always amounts to removing attention and/or your presence.

She will definitely test the smaller boundaries, and that's where you teach her whether or not she'll respect the larger ones. Action is everything. Once the boundaries are set, any further discussion about them will have zero effect.

She only understands removal of attention... nothing else. You can use a million words to explain yourself, and she will not understand an iota of what you're saying because her emotions eclipse EVERYTHING and are her only reality.

In other words, a woman needs a man who will set strong boundaries and enforce them without seeking her assent or understanding. This is critically important. You NEVER want to convey that you are discussing what is ok with her or not. However it is equally important to tell her WHY you have set these boundaries. This is fair and respectful to her and to you.

It's your kingdom. You're the man, you make the rules. If you're an authentic man and a leader, you make rules that are beneficial for you, for her, and for the relationship. We take care of those whom we lead. Discussing boundaries is an exercise in futility. You state them, and then you silently and ruthlessly enforce them.

Ruthless enforcement entails a matter-of-fact, dispassionate removal of attention or other action that demonstrates your absolute non-acceptance of a woman's behavior. No sign of hesitation or second-guessing.

Sun Tzu teaches us how to set and enforce boundaries...

 

[Soolaimon]

I think it's important to note they they should be expressed BOTH verbally and then by follow up action.

For example, let's say one of your boundaries is no texting while on dates.

The first time you see her texting, you need to specifically say:

"Excuse me, but I don't date girls that text while on a date."

THEN it's up to you to adhere STRICTLY to your stated boundaries.

If you never said anything, and simply got up and left when she started texting (in this particular example) then she'll have no idea WTF just happened.

I think it's also important to note that boundaries are PURELY SUBJECTIVE.

One man's red flags might be fine with other guys.

Arguing over HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES is a completely different discussion than the boundaries themselves.

If you make the mistake of assuming that all boundaries are society wide and therefore self-evident, you're just giving her rope to hang you with later on.

ALWAYS KNOW YOUR BOUNDARIES. Ever last one.

ALWAYS EXPRESS YOUR BOUNDARIES. As they are crossed the FIRST time.

ALWAYS ENFORCE YOUR BOUNDARIES. Without hesitation.

Do this and you'll have ZERO problems with ladies.

If you're shopping for a relationship, it's up to you to make sure ALL OF YOUR BOUNDARIES are explained and understood before you commit.

Otherwise you're asking for trouble.

Your words all sound nice but it's not the case in the real world.

Too many men are trying to put boundaries on women who don't want to follow them.

The woman has to respect you and want to follow your boundaries in order for it to work.

Otherwise she isn't going to take you seriously and you will be terribly disrespected.

When the woman doesn't respect you or does what she want to do anyway she will not follow your boundaries.

For example, let's say one of your boundaries is no texting while on dates.

The first time you see her texting, you need to specifically say:

"Excuse me, but I don't date girls that text while on a date."

After you say that the woman comes back with this.

Her: "It's my friend Mary and I want to text her something important. I can do that if I want."
or
Her: "It's my mom and I need to text her something back. I can do that if I want."




So you explained your boundary to her that she doesn't care to follow.


What are you going to do then taiyuu after she says that?


A). Are you going to argue with her for breaking your boundary?

B). Sit there and take it as she breaks your boundary disrespecting you?

C). Dump her on the spot, get up and leave the restaurant table, walk out on her for breaking your boundary of no texting on a date?


What's your course of action here?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

What are you going to do then taiyuu after she says that?


A). Are you going to argue with her for breaking your boundary?

B). Sit there and take it as she breaks your boundary disrespecting you?

C). Dump her on the spot, get up and leave the restaurant table, walk out on her for breaking your boundary of no texting on a date?


What's your course of action here?[/B]

The whole purpose of setting boundaries is NOT to "change" her or force her.

It's to let her know your boundaries. The ONLY thing you can do if she REFUSES to respect your boundaries is to LEAVE.

So yes, (C) is the correct answer.

Not what you like?

Too bad. Many girls will simply NOT follow your boundaries.

Your job, as a man, is to find the girls who will.

If you can't, then you'd better increase your value.

If you don't value yourself, your boundaries, your life, your world, NOBODY will.

 

[Soolaimon]

Too bad.Many girls will simply NOT follow your boundaries.

Your job, as a man, is to find the girls who will.

If you can't, then you'd better increase your value.

If you don't value yourself, your boundaries, your life, your world, NOBODY will.

You just contradicted yourself taiyuu and the boundary theory.

When many girls will simply NOT follow your boundary that means your boundary is useless.

When many girls will simply NOT follow your boundary that means you have no value.

When many girls will simply NOT follow your boundary that means they aren't taking you seriously as a man.

When many girls will simply NOT follow your boundary that means you have no power.



This woman should follow your boundaries if you had ANY value in the first place.

She wouldn't disrespect your boundaries that you set.

You just admitted that you have no value cause she disrespected your boundary.

How do you expect other women to follow any of your boundaries when you have no value with this current woman when she disrespected you for something simple as texting on a date?

If you HAVE high value these women would have no problem following any of your boundaries right?

Why would you have to find other women who will?

You are saying many women won't follow your boundaries.

That means you have NO value for the women to follow them.

That means YOU need to increase your value cause many women will simply NOT follow your boundary.

This woman should follow your boundary if you had any value. You shouldn't have to find other women like you say. Why should you have to find other women if you already have value?

Finding other women won't work out too well when previous women broke your boundaries with ease. If those other women won't follow your boundaries no woman will unless you are scraping bottom of the barrel women who will do anything to have a man.

That means you have low value trying to get women to agree to "your terms" in which she refuses to do.

Thanks for proving me right again!

The whole purpose of setting boundaries is NOT to "change" her or force her.

It's to let her know your boundaries. The ONLY thing you can do if she REFUSES to respect your boundaries is to LEAVE.

So yes, (C) is the correct answer.

Not what you like?

Too bad. Many girls will simply NOT follow your boundaries.

Your job, as a man, is to find the girls who will.

If you can't, then you'd better increase your value.

If you don't value yourself, your boundaries, your life, your world, NOBODY will.

And too many men will not enforce their boundaries which is why they are useless.

You don't even need to set verbal boundaries to execute what what values you hold. You just do it.

Men in this forum ARE trying to change their behavior with their boundaries.

The woman disrespects him with her behavior. They set a boundary trying to change that bad behavior. All these threads show that.

The whole purpose of setting boundaries is NOT to "change" her or force her.

This is not true.

A woman that has disrespected men her whole life is a disrespectful woman.

You guys can't see with your own eyes that she is a disrespectful woman until you put boundaries on her.

You putting boundaries on her IS trying to change her cause you are wanting her to respect you and your boundaries.

That is changing her from a disrespectful woman to a respectful woman with your boundary.

You are trying to change her behavior from how she normally behaves which is disrespectful.

Then you act surprised that she doesn't follow "your terms" of your boundary.

What the hell do you expect with a disrespectful woman when you have no value?

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

The whole purpose of setting boundaries is NOT to "change" her or force her.

It's to let her know your boundaries. The ONLY thing you can do if she REFUSES to respect your boundaries is to LEAVE.

So yes, (C) is the correct answer.

Not what you like?

Too bad. Many girls will simply NOT follow your boundaries.

Your job, as a man, is to find the girls who will.

If you can't, then you'd better increase your value.

If you don't value yourself, your boundaries, your life, your world, NOBODY will.

The problem I see here is that the only way this would work is if you're dating a robot that doesn't have any of the inherent characteristics of a woman ----->emotions------>$hit tests.

Women $hit test. They're like children, they need test their parent's boundaries. Women WILL do this. OVERTLY stating your boundaries is not good enough. Women will see how far they can push these boundaries. If you overtly state your boundaries you're not giving yourself an out. You've put yourself in a lose/lose situation----> she $hit tests----->your only choice is C) dump her on the spot.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

The problem I see here is that the only way this would work is if you're dating a robot that doesn't have any of the inherent characteristics of a woman ----->emotions------>$hit tests.

Perhaps we disagree on a definition of "boundaries."

These would be the "red flags" that are subjective and a guy decides BEFOREHAND that a woman can't behave this way and still be "relationship material."

For example, these could be considered "boundaries" (in my opinion):

Showing up more than 15 min late for a predetermined time and place

Showing up unannounced at your house

Taking calls or texting while on a date (that you are paying for)

These could be considered "shyte tests" (in my opinion)

Comparing your income to some guy she knows

openly admiring somebody else's bling that's out of your income level

talking about how hard her ex made her come

Here's the thing:

The more options you have, the EASIER it is to disqualify girls.

If you have't gotten laid in a year, or if you rarely get laid, or if you can ONLY get laid with low quality women, then even mentioning any kind of boundaries sounds crazy.

But I guarantee if you had list of ten girls you could booty call, then a girl showing up thirty minutes late or texting when you ask her not to is NOT going to trigger any kind of "oh no, is this a boundary, or a shyte test, I should give her some slack, right?" hamster spinning.

Kind of like the Soup Nazi. He had so many customers, if any customer gave him any kind of grief, then "no soup for you."

He wasn't overly worried about some useless "customer is always right" philosophy, since he had dudes lined up out the door hoping to get some.

BOTTOM LINE

If a girl doesn't respect your boundaries that you clearly define, through word and deed, she ain't into you that much.

 

[SeeThruIt]

It can be argued forever that if a boundary is going to work there needs to be enough attraction and respect.

But if a woman doesn't know what you will or won't accept she's not going to respect you the way you'd like. That's that.

Set a boundary or don't but defining them out seems like a better way of getting the woman to behave to your standards, granted she cares to.

There's no one way on the subject that's going to get her to be into you more or comply

 

[Rainman4707]

The boundary crew tell the woman his boundaries on the first meet I assume? Well of the top of my head i wouldn't tell a girl on the first date that i don't want her seeing other guys.

Ok, I am in a relationship with a woman, have been for a few weeks. I was dating her for four & a half months before we became exclusive.
She goes to the cinema with her ex (according to her, he was in a relationship with her for six month & never attempted to kiss her) once a week/fortnight. I told her on new years eve that "how would she feel if i went to the pictures with my ex girls"

How would boundary & anti boundary guys handle this?

Look, i wasn't bothered about her seeing him when i was dating her, but now she's mine :nono:

 

[Rainman4707]

Thanks for the response Danger. I have read a couple of the threads about boundaries. If I had reread this thread I wouldn't have asked about setting boundaries on first meet...my bad

Whilst we were dating I knew she saw him once a week/fortnight. She wanted to be exclusive. It wasn't a text she was at my house when I told her to think about how she would feel if I met up with my ex's. She responded saying she was a little confused & that she will discuss it with her mother & auntie (this was the first time I had seen her since we decided to become exclusive.

I left it for 10 days then she mentioned him. I said "so your still seeing him?" she babbled on & said she'll have to discuss it with her mother. She asked me a few questions to which responded again telling her I don't like her seeing him.

Ok that was last week. I saw her last night. I had sex with her & whilst lying in bed brought it up.

Rainman :- So are you still seeing him? (I dont think she has actually saw him since I first mentioned the situation)

She asked a few things over the discussion including why does it bother you? Are you jealous? She mainly wanted to know if I trusted her? she was wondering if it was an issue from my past? She was trying to make it look not a big deal although she wasn't happy.

I'm not sure what to do about this situation yet. Last night I thought I'd mention it again just to tell her I don't like it I don't like her hanging about with him & told her I wouldn't mind if there was another girl present when she hung out with him. All I told her last night was that I didn't like her knocking about with him..just the two of them she asked questions including the above mentioned & told me i'll have to say more or have a think about it & come back to her. I agreed.
She was a little upset saying im the only person she has ever loved & was worrying about what this will do to us, but she said she sees a wonderful future for us.

I just reiterated that I don't like it she was saying he's a dork who is no threat at all. She wants me not him. She said she was going to bring him into the flat to play computer games, but didn't ( I imagine she didn't because she knew I wouldn't like it) she has said a few times she hasn't got many friends.

She is a good woman.