Bodybuilding vs Powerlifting

[JDiddy]

I go to the gym to get strong, and i eat to get big

Im definitly more of a PLer then a BBer, and my goals are more like a PLer (300kg raw deadlift yeahhh buddy!) but I definitly love the physical side affects (also the mental too) of training and probably wouldnt do it if I was to remain a 140lb skinny rake!

 

[user43770]

I appreciate everyone's comments. This is exactly the kind of reinforcement I need. As I said, I've hit a mental wall and I've been struggling to justify the torment I put myself through in the squat rack. I recently started a variant of the Texas Method and it's kicking my ass.

 

[Kerpal]

I think it's a little early for the Texas Method at this point. I'd keep milking the easy gains from the basic program until you're totally stuck.

What version of Texas Method are you using? If you have Practical Programming by Rippetoe, he talks about replacing the max day with a volume day for people who want to emphasize size gains. This might be a good compromise between strength and size training.

 

[Amazing]

So far nobody posted any programs.

I have been doing compounds for 5 years now, may be more. I am telling you it gets you BIGGER but it doesnt mean you look amazing, you will look good but some iso stuff is needed

 

[CarlitosWay]

I find the idea of training purely for aesthetics and neglecting strength very bizarre, but that's a whole different debate that we've done 100x already. That said, the method of training you guys are endorsing doesn't make sense to me, even from a purely "bodybuilding" standpoint.

****ty reading comprehension eh? WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT NEGLECTING STRENGTH?!?!?!? I literally told the guy in my first posts in this thread to either increase reps or weight in his WORKING SETS (especially for complex movements) any time he can. Food and getting stronger in a higher rep range is what's going to get him the SIZE/muscle density he wants.

You just train for strength woopdeeedoooo you're a "BADASS" WE GET IT already ...

Guess what us bodybuilders aim to do? Place our muscles under longer tension using moderate to heavy weights and working to increase reps or weight like I mentioned.

Say you want to train with higher reps for "the pump" or whatever. And your max squat is 250. So you'll be doing reps with about 185- 200 lbs. Doesn't it make more sense to get your max higher, and THEN do reps with heavier weight? If you got your max squat to 400, you could do reps with 300+ lbs instead of 200. Wouldn't doing reps with much more weight be better for getting bigger?

Going back to my first post here.....longer time under tension is needed. He can very easily get his 185-200 lbs for 6-10 reps to 350+ for 6-10 reps after a long while of training. he'll have some huge legs when he's reppin' 350+ for reps like it's no ones business. Again you're assuming most us bber's don't care at all about strength. Alongside nutrition and proper training/exercises, getting stronger is all a part of the equation. It all interconnects.

Plus, if you're a beginner, you can grow very quickly with sets of 5. In fact, for a pure beginner, I doubt higher reps will make you grow any faster than sets of 5, since at that level almost anything will make you grow and studies show that beginner do best with sets of around 5 reps. And sets of 5 are the best way for a beginner to get strong as quickly as possible. So for a beginner, it seems like you get the best of both worlds by simply doing a basic low rep strength program. I define "beginner" as anyone who hasn't exhausted their limits on a simple linear progression program. Obviously when you're no longer a beginner you have to use more complicated programming depending on your goals.

I know of many people who didn't have a "simple linear program" at the start and they just learned from all the serious lifters/bodybuilders in their gym and went at their own pace. Guess what?? they all made great gains regardless. Also link references to these "studies". I call bull****.

A beginner could be mentored by a bodybuilder from the beginning and another one could get mentored by a powerlifter. Both are going to put on size. Yet who's going to put on the most and have it done proportionately? ? ?

Example: I can squat a little over 400 and deadlift around 500 at a bodyweight of about 200, and I STILL haven't exhausted linear progression. I'm still making progress (although at a very slow rate now) with the basic Starting Strength program, I've gained ~50 lbs on this program, most of it has been muscle (if not all of it; it's possible my bodyfat % may actually be lower than when I started) and I have below average genetics. So now, if I wanted to train purely for size, I could squat 300+ and deadlift 400+ for reps. Wouldn't this make me much bigger than if I had started (and stalled out quickly) with an overly complicated, high rep, light weight program in the first place?

@ "overly complicated"...This is your biased opinion. Still waiting on pics!!!!

My buddies who train like bodybuilders and also for strength and who are squatting 400 lbs+, deadlifting 500 lbs all have great physiques.

It just makes more sense to me to build up a strength base before you try high rep stuff, even if your goal is just looking good at the beach or whatever it is you guys are trying to accomplish.

Why though? You can get stronger in ANY rep range. you'll get size gains in the 3-5 rep range. Yet if the guy worked up to that same weight in a rep range where he has his muscles under more tension he's going to get more SIZE gains. I don't understand why that's so hard to comprehend.

For some reason when a lot of people think about bodybuilding and higher reps, they think of a huge ass guy lifting up 15 lb dumbbells with a pinky twist. It's just ****in stupid.

Powerbuilding sounds better, get stronger in some main exercises that work for you and do some isolation work alongside to build up any weak/lagging parts so in the end you ultimately have a proportionate/aesthetic physique..

 

[CarlitosWay]

So far nobody posted any programs.

I have been doing compounds for 5 years now, may be more. I am telling you it gets you BIGGER but it doesnt mean you look amazing, you will look good but some iso stuff is needed

chest/tris/bis
legs
off
shoulders/back
off
repeat

With compound movements that work for you thrown in and 1-2 isolation exercises for the smaller muscles.

or chest/tris
bis/legs
off
shoulders/back
off

or

yates split

chest/bis
legs
off
shoulders/tris
rear delts/back
off

 

[Amazing]

Why though? You can get stronger in ANY rep range. you'll get size gains in the 3-5 rep range. Yet if the guy worked up to that same weight in a rep range where he has his muscles under more tension he's going to get more SIZE gains. I don't understand why that's so hard to comprehend.

For some reason when a lot of people think about bodybuilding and higher reps, they think of a huge ass guy lifting up 15 lb dumbbells with a pinky twist. It's just ****in stupid.

Powerbuilding sounds better, get stronger in some main exercises that work for you and do some isolation work alongside to build up any weak/lagging parts so in the end you ultimately have a proportionate/aesthetic physique..

you meant strength in the third sentence. so 8-12 is the way to go? I am interested like I said I did 4-8 reps all my life, sometimes 4-6.. I think I missed out

 

[Fuglydude]

Current program for me:

I definitely do both compound and isolation. Mostly focus on compound stuff though.

Squat day:

- Warm up (stretches, powerclean or dumbell snatch)
- Back squat
* warm up sets,
* 1 set jump squats
* max work singles (work upto a 1RM)
* 2 work sets.
* 1 x 20 rep set.
- Weighted Pulls (for spinal decompression, do em after squat sets)
* 3-5 work sets (varied resistance 90-115 lbs + BW)
- Seated bicep curls:
* 2-3 sets
- 2 of these 4:
* 2 sets hamstring curls
* 2 sets leg ext.
* 2 sets donkey calve raises.
* 2 sets weighted pistols.

Deadlift Day:

- Warm up (stretches, powerclean or dumbell snatch)

- Deadlift:

* Warm up singles (work to 1 RM)
* 2-3 work sets (6-10 reps depending on weight)

Weighted Dips:

* One set for spinal decompression after each deadlift set as I see fit
(usually 4-5 sets. Weights vary from 90-145 lbs + BW).
* Also do core work, 3-4 sets of tricep isolation work.

Push/Pull day:

Warm up (stretches, olympic lifts)

* 3-4 sets incline dumbell press
* 3-4 sets Dumbell rows (kroc row style)
- superset these w/ shoulder raises (lat, ant, post. raises)
* 2 sets reverse grip bench
* 2 wide grip chin ups/sternum chin ups
* 2 sets dumbell shoulder press
* 2 sets seated row

That's my current basic routine.

Have some older pics up on this album:

http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m91/Treydesmon/

 

[Jitterbug]

This is getting funny. The OP isn't missing out on any golden routine that everyone else is using to get results, but isn't telling him.

You TRAIN at the gym to trigger your body for changes.

You EAT to give your body fuel for changes.

You SLEEP to give your body the chance to apply the changes.

You're not gonna miss out on anything by doing a few extra or less reps. If you're already doing compound lifts, you got the routine part covered. If your body isn't changing, it's a combination of three things:

1: You're not training hard enough.
2: You're not eating the right things / right amount.
3: You're not sleeping enough.

Training is actually very easy compared to the other two. That is why every guy asks about training, because that's what they can follow the best. Few have the consistent discipline and the priority set straight enough to follow up that hard work at training with good diet and sleep.

 

[CarlitosWay]

This is getting funny. The OP isn't missing out on any golden routine that everyone else is using to get results, but isn't telling him.

There's never going to be a golden routine for training in powerlifting nor bodybuilding. Yet is there going to be an optimal routines for what the person has in mind to achieve as an end result? Yes. If a freakin' newbie wants to ultimately look like a bodybuilder you don't throw him on starting strength, it's just ****in' stupid. You help him make up a routine that has him in the gym at least 4-5 days a week with money compound movements (that work for his bodytype) +isolation work and tell him to train with bodybuilders/knowledgeable lifters and to not eat like a pigeon everyday and rest up.

You TRAIN at the gym to trigger your body for changes.

You EAT to give your body fuel for changes.

You SLEEP to give your body the chance to apply the changes.

You're not gonna miss out on anything by doing a few extra or less reps. If you're already doing compound lifts, you got the routine part covered. If your body isn't changing, it's a combination of three things:

1: You're not training hard enough.
2: You're not eating the right things / right amount.
3: You're not sleeping enough.

*pounds head against his keyboard*
Anyone who has been training seriously longer than 1-2 years KNOWS this.

Where talking about why bodybuilders train higher reps/more exercise selection/variation....MUSCLES PUT UNDER MORE TENSION = MORE MUSCLE TRAUMA WHICH EQUALS MORE MUSCLE BUILT as long as food intake and sleep are adequate enough.

Training is actually very easy compared to the other two. That is why every guy asks about training, because that's what they can follow the best. Few have the consistent discipline and the priority set straight enough to follow up that hard work at training with good diet and sleep.

zzzz....

 

[CarlitosWay]

you meant strength in the third sentence. so 8-12 is the way to go? I am interested like I said I did 4-8 reps all my life, sometimes 4-6.. I think I missed out

Yeah you can get stronger in any rep range but like I've said a gazillion times over, you want more time under tension. Some people might respond better in the 4-8 rep range, others in the 12-15. I'm a fan of mixing it up.

4-8 reps are fine..Everyone is different. Kevin Levrone and Dorian Yates trained a lot around the 6 rep range also. I imagine if you kept doing your heavy work followed by 1-2 working sets of 12-15 reps. You would get some real nice gains as your body is not used to that high of reps.

Or just try doing 8-15 reps for a bit, give your joints a break from the lower heavier reps and than jump back into that heavy training later. Joints/tendons can use a break from time to time as they at heal a lot slower than muscles.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Current program for me:

I definitely do both compound and isolation. Mostly focus on compound stuff though.

Squat day:

- Warm up (stretches, powerclean or dumbell snatch)
- Back squat
* warm up sets,
* 1 set jump squats
* max work singles (work upto a 1RM)
* 2 work sets.
* 1 x 20 rep set.
- Weighted Pulls (for spinal decompression, do em after squat sets)
* 3-5 work sets (varied resistance 90-115 lbs + BW)
- Seated bicep curls:
* 2-3 sets
- 2 of these 4:
* 2 sets hamstring curls
* 2 sets leg ext.
* 2 sets donkey calve raises.
* 2 sets weighted pistols.

Deadlift Day:

- Warm up (stretches, powerclean or dumbell snatch)

- Deadlift:

* Warm up singles (work to 1 RM)
* 2-3 work sets (6-10 reps depending on weight)

Weighted Dips:

* One set for spinal decompression after each deadlift set as I see fit
(usually 4-5 sets. Weights vary from 90-145 lbs + BW).
* Also do core work, 3-4 sets of tricep isolation work.

Push/Pull day:

Warm up (stretches, olympic lifts)

* 3-4 sets incline dumbell press
* 3-4 sets Dumbell rows (kroc row style)
- superset these w/ shoulder raises (lat, ant, post. raises)
* 2 sets reverse grip bench
* 2 wide grip chin ups/sternum chin ups
* 2 sets dumbell shoulder press
* 2 sets seated row

That's my current basic routine.

Have some older pics up on this album:

http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m91/Treydesmon/

You have a real nice physique. Awesome capped shoulders..Good width on back and nice thickness.

The only thing that I feel you're really lacking is a nice upper chest...I barely see any real upper chest thickness. Could be genetics or what not but you only have one incline movement and no flys ? I'm sure if you started hitting your upper chest two times a week and have one day where all you do is 1-2 low incline pressing movements (25-30 degree angle on bench as to minimize shoulder involvement best)(HS machine + db or barbell) followed by low incline cable/db flys or standing low cable flys like so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lq2bW3OBS0

hell even was reading about Clay Hyght recommending to super set a low incline movement with flys. You'll have a drop in weight used of course @ first. Yet I'm sure after a few months your upper chest will come up big time.

 

[CarlitosWay]

OK, I understand wanting to look good. I don't have anything against it. We think muscular people look good because it's sign that the person is strong. Being strong helps you survive, and we inherently find people who have good survival traits attractive because we're biologically programmed to want to give our offspring the best chance of survival. That's why chicks like muscular guys (although the bodybuilders are taking it way too far to the point where it looks unnatural and most people don't find it attractive at all).

The problem is that many people have found a way to "trick" their bodies into looking strong without actually being strong. Have you ever seen the kids in their ****ty Honda civics with the loud, annoying exhausts, flame stickers, big wings on the trunks, etc? They're trying to give off the appearance of being fast when they aren't actually fast. To me it's the same as training to look strong without actually being strong. I just find it bizarre.

Show me all these people that have "tricked" their bodies into looking strong with out actually being strong in the exercises they chose. I'll wait for a 1-2 real good examples. The only ones I could see you actually using rightfully so are the guys loaded to the gills on Synthol oils.



Why not just get strong? Then you'll look strong and actually be able to back it up. I would rather have a car that looks fast and goes fast than a car that looks fast but isn't. Plus there are lots of benefits to actually being strong and athletic besides how you look. If you're going to bother going to the gym in the first place you may as well reap all the benefits. And anyway, strength training is fun

Also, I like having goals to set and reach, and there aren't many other hobbies that are so quantitative in the way you set goals and measure progress. I'm a very analytical person so that is important to me, just going by the mirror doesn't mean anything to me because it's so subjective; it's not really a precise, quantitative way to measure anything. If I was training for looks and measuring progress with a mirror I think I would have gotten bored and quit by now.

So you like to give advice to people who want to look great in the mirror and be strong ?? When you don't even train for looks?

Worse analogy tho with the cars....lol!!!! Your body doesn't give a **** if it's a machine or barbell/db. If you get a challenging weight on there and rep that **** out. It will only know one of two things depending on food intake. Get that muscle bigger or get it stronger....

That is why most of these beginners would be better off learning from an anatomy and physiology book and + training around people who are knowledgeable in physique/strength goals or that guy who has built an average to below average physique/strength up to something IMPRESSIVE .

All that would be better than reading a lot of misconceptions on the internet or what's found in most articles.

 

[CarlitosWay]

double post

 

[Kerpal]

Show me all these people that have "tricked" their bodies into looking strong with out actually being strong in the exercises they chose. I'll wait for a 1-2 real good examples. The only ones I could see you actually using rightfully so are the guys loaded to the gills on Synthol oils.

Half the guys at my gym. Also, right from the 1st page of this thread, which is what I was responding to with that:

You honesty is refreshing--I'm in the same club: working out is all about vanity. I love the pump...and, I couldn't care less about actual strength or increased bone density. I just want to LOOK strong, lean, and muscular.

I rarely backsquat more than 275 lbs., and I weigh 240lbs.

However--I simply don't care how strong I am. Guys ask me all the time, "How much can you bench?" I tell them I have no clue--I'm more interested in chasing skirt than I am in maximizing my bench.

I have big arms, but I rarely work my biceps more than once a week--6-9 sets at most...curl 45's at the most. And I don't care...whoop te do. My arms look great...I do what it takes to keep my body looking great...so 1-rep maxes are worthless to me.

As long as my muscles look good, I don't care how much I can lift...increasing strength has never meant anything to me, and it doesn't mean anything to me now--other than being the vehicle to making me look good. If I can curl only 45's and yet somehow still have big, ripped arms, why should I care about lifting more weight?

I don't get the point of looking like a 240 lb strong guy when you're not actually strong. To me, it's no different than putting a big wing, flame stickers and a loud exhaust on a Honda civic. Wouldn't you rather have a car that looks fast and actually GOES fast?

 

[Kerpal]

....

 

[Kerpal]

=CarlitosWay]****ty reading comprehension eh? WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT NEGLECTING STRENGTH?!?!?!?

See above.

Going back to my first post here.....longer time under tension is needed. He can very easily get his 185-200 lbs for 6-10 reps to 350+ for 6-10 reps after a long while of training. he'll have some huge legs when he's reppin' 350+ for reps like it's no ones business.

So you’re saying that sets of 6-10 reps are better than sets of 5 reps for gaining strength?

I know of many people who didn't have a "simple linear program" at the start and they just learned from all the serious lifters/bodybuilders in their gym and went at their own pace. Guess what?? they all made great gains regardless.

Anecdotal. Go to any gym, there are way more guys that have looked the same for year after year of doing their high rep curls + bench program.

Also link references to these "studies". I call bull****.

Starting Strength, Basic Barbell Training and Practical Programming.

@ "overly complicated"...This is your biased opinion. Still waiting on pics!!!!

Another red herring. This thread isn’t about what I look like.

 

[Kerpal]

Your body doesn't give a **** if it's a machine or barbell/db. If you get a challenging weight on there and rep that **** out. It will only know one of two things depending on food intake. Get that muscle bigger or get it stronger....

So you're saying that machines are just as good as free weights for strength gains?

 

[Kerpal]

This post illustrates perfectly the guys I see at my gym year in and year out on overly complicated bodybuilding programs:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173444

 

[CarlitosWay]

This post illustrates perfectly the guys I see at my gym year in and year out on overly complicated bodybuilding programs:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173444

That's not an overly complicated bodybuilding program. It's a poorly designed bodybuilding program. Huge difference there buddy. I'll fix it up and he'll be well on his way to getting that dense muscle powerlifters have and that aesthetic/proportional look nattie bodybuilders have.