bible question

[backbreaker]

BackBreaker, perhaps you should ask the right question to begin with. Matthew 5 vs 3 says "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." the key word here is "in spirit". Do you know now see how the whole question has taken a new turn in meaning and a deeper one at that? I get that a lot of you here want to bash the bible and religion but if you must at least pick the correct quote, along with your source to begin with.
Anyway, from my Christian background I'ill attempt to answer the right question you should've been asking. I think that people who are poor in spirit are more focused on spiritual matters and get blessed in the process, since their state of mind isn't all about stuff. So, due to their focus they are more than likely to live the life to get them to heaven.
To the anti-religious folks none of what I've said should make sense to you. It's to be expected. So, let's leave it at that eh?

again i'm not a bible hater nor am i the one you can try to pull what you are trying to pull on, I know the bible quite well.

there are 2 sets of beatitudes in the bible. the one you references and another in st luke chapter 6 versus 20 through 28, and chapter 6 verse 20 says verbaium what i said, blessed ye that are poor for they should inherit the kingdom of god.

which brings up another problem with the issue is that you have 2 very different explanations for soomething extremely important. blessed are the poor and spirit and blessed are the poor are two, very very very very different things.

so no, i know damn well the question i was asking in the first place.

That is a very advanced and mature viewpoint. All of us could learn something from any religion by taking that approach.

that's pretty much the approach i take thoughi don't consider myself a true athieist. more of a diest. just like there are people who cannot wait to take pot shots at the bible, everyone who thinks that someone asks questions about the bible is bible thumping. I mean come on the bible has issues you know it as well as i do. doesn't mean i don't still find it interesting because i don't believe it.

For what it's worth, the same sentiments were introduced into the general public when Tokugawa became shogun of Japan in the early 1600's (e.g. the merchants were placed as the lowest class of society, and the samurai's were considered too "noble" to earn filthy, evil, money.)

ah you have hit a fav topic of mine. Tokugawa ieyasu IMHO is the most badass man to ever walk the face of the earth and IMHO was a better general than any of the famed roman generals that get all the talk about in western soceity.

 

[Rubato]

Biblebelt, I don't want to hijack this thread and stir up a debate about the canonization of the Christian scriptures, but how are the gnostic writings relevant here?

The biggest point I want to make here though is this:

Christianity (and any other religious practice, including atheism) is a faith. If it was something that was provable through quantitative means, there would be no opinions, only facts. Since there is no definitive quantitative proof one way or another, the only thing we are left with is the qualitative. Religion is something that ought to be experienced rather than analyzed. Backbreaker, I think may be making a mistake trying to approach your spiritually minded question from the position of logic (which is a quantitative tool) rather than experience.

You say you are a Deist, and so you at least believe in some sort of divine being. Is the being you believe in the sort of being that *you* would have the capacity to fully comprehend and understand? I think it requires a great deal of unabashed arrogance to assume that if we have decided to believe in God (or a god), that we also have the intellectual capacity to fully understand God and His nature/writings. That would place your belief in a God that you are on the same intellectual level with (or at least a comparable one), which would either mean you are a god or the "god" you believe in is not actually a God.

I think there is a good analogy to be made between attraction and spirituality. There is no intellectual calculus or philosophy that will help you in either. Philosophies may get you somewhere, but they are not the ultimate answer. As Jesus said in the Gospels, you have to have "faith like a child" for this to work - that reminds me a lot of what Pook said, "Charm is treating women like little girls". I don't think a person who is actually spiritually enlightened is going to try and intellectualize it. They will try their best to understand it, but they will also realize that since we are not gods, there will always be an element of spirituality we cannot understand/prove.

 

[backbreaker]

You say you are a Deist, and so you at least believe in some sort of divine being. Is the being you believe in the sort of being that *you* would have the capacity to fully comprehend and understand? I think it requires a great deal of unabashed arrogance to assume that if we have decided to believe in God (or a god), that we also have the intellectual capacity to fully understand God and His nature/writings. That would place your belief in a God that you are on the same intellectual level with (or at least a comparable one), which would either mean you are a god or the "god" you believe in is not actually a God.

I fully believe in some sort of type of higher power. Rather that is a person, an alien, a force of nature, I don't know what that is. I think it's quite arrogant actually to suggest that we do know, but I believe something is there. I just do not believe in the Christan/Abrahamic god that is described in the bible.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Some of the responses here remind me of many women who bellow out, "Guns are bad". With raised eyebrows we ask, "And why do you say that?" to their simplistic proclamation, and they say, "They just are".

"Oh? But why is that?" "Because they kill people". And we marvel at that childish naivete.

God, in the Bible tells us the following:

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14

God Himself informs us that His own words are regarded as foolish and cannot be comprehended by the unspiritual, because they refuse to hear Him on a spiritual level. Instead, they simply proclaim with arrogance, "Christianity only exists to control people".

When I want to learn about physics, I do not go to a botanist. I go to someone who has made a life study of physics and who has experience in proving/disproving physical laws. Likewise, when I want to learn about firearms I don't go to a florist. No, I go to a man who is trained in the use of firearms, who can dismantle and clean and reassemble any of his firearms blindfolded.

Likewise, it is quite ridiculous to base one's faith or lack thereof in God by consulting with people who have in no way studied scripture but who loudly shout out their uninformed guesses based on their feelings.

We should remember that nearly everyone who has come to faith in Christ was once a mocker of Christianity. That was certainly the case for me and most of my friends (many of whom are pastors). Those who are believers have lived on BOTH sides of the tracks, not just one. We forget that believers once hated God, once shouted out from the rooftops how "silly" Christianity is, and how the bible was "just written by men and uninspired", perhaps to control the masses.

That begs the question: What changed them? What is it about the scriptures that cause a staunch enemy of God to do a complete 180 and submit to him through Christ? What is it that made Paul, a voracious devourer of Christians, to turn completely around and become the chief evangelist to the gentiles? What is it that caused the apostles to suffer horrible deaths instead of simply recanting their faith? What made thousands of martyrs face torture and death rather than recant their faith? Remember, these are all people who were "CERTAIN" that Christianity was a farce.

The bible says that "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". Faith doesn't come from movies, music, magazine articles, personal opinion, TV shows, plays, intellectual arguments or anything else. A certainty of God comes through exposure to the word of God, and by no other way. Many, many Christians came to faith in Christ by reading the bible in order to disprove it. To their surprise, the bible ended up disproving them.

What keeps people away from God is the desire to be their own gods, to avoid answering to a higher authority. That thought is repulsive to the average man, and was at one time repulsive who all Christians did the same 180 that Paul did.

Regarding the poor being blessed, Jesus had a true affinity with the poor. The bible says that although He was rich, He became poor for our sakes. He told His followers that "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head".

It also says:
“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

It's much more difficult for people who are wealthy, intellectual, and have other worldy resources to be able to submit to God spiritually. Those people perceive that they can rely on themselves and their own resourcefulness and they relegate God to myth, or even worse they define Him as something/someone who is inert and not a threat to their world paradigm. This is idolotry, because they are making up an impotent, imaginary god who answers to them.

The poor are regarded as blessed because they recognize that they have none of these wordly, temporary things to rely on and to distract them from the saving grace of God.

In closing, ponder this:

"Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

"And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops."

"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I'll say to myself, "I have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." '

"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?'

"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."

 

[backbreaker]

man i'm not trying to get in a god does or does not debate. i'm really not. I was just curious about the question i had. no more no less. 2 pages, not one answer.

 

[Atom Smasher]

You don't see a direct answer to your direct question in my response?

Did you not ask why the poor and sick are blessed?

 

[YAboi]

None of u have to believe for it to be true. If u believe in ghosts then why not God. I personally have been visited by evil spirits and had my neck choked by one but I was saved by an angel. Most people seem too lazy to investigate Christianity but they practice other occultic stuff at ease.

 

[ArcBound]

None of u have to believe for it to be true. If u believe in ghosts then why not God. I personally have been visited by evil spirits and had my neck choked by one but I was saved by an angel. Most people seem too lazy to investigate Christianity but they practice other occultic stuff at ease.

What you basically said in this post was, since people believe in stupider things it is OK to believe in this. Which is one of the worst arguments I've heard on this board.

 

[Bible_Belt]

(I realize I'm talking to no one, but I'm fascinated with this idea at the moment)

The Gnostics were always supposed to have been guarding some great secret about Christianity. Maybe the secret was not that Jesus wasn't supernatural. Instead, it was that as a child especially, he was supernatural in some ways that were not very nice at all. That would explain why the New Testament lacks anything about Jesus as a child. That's the part that they cut out, because it doesn't sell the story.

Backbreaker posted on here about his toddler son getting mad over being disallowed more ice cream and throwing his phone in the toilet in retaliation. The Gospel of Thomas stories about the child Jesus made me think of that. He wields supernatural power with just about as much maturity as you would expect of a small child.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm
This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone....

But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'

 

[Alle_Gory]

None of u have to believe for it to be true. If u believe in ghosts then why not God. I personally have been visited by evil spirits and had my neck choked by one but I was saved by an angel. Most people seem too lazy to investigate Christianity but they practice other occultic stuff at ease.

I remember that thread and people were telling you to see a doctor because it sounded very much like a medical condition. If it doesn't go away with drugs and a healthy lifestyle, then you can claim it was indeed the supernatural.

What you experienced was the same thing the rest of us experience on drugs like LSD or mushrooms. Supernatural or warping of the mind to see what it wants to see?

When I want to learn about physics, I do not go to a botanist. I go to someone who has made a life study of physics and who has experience in proving/disproving physical laws. Likewise, when I want to learn about firearms I don't go to a florist. No, I go to a man who is trained in the use of firearms, who can dismantle and clean and reassemble any of his firearms blindfolded.

Likewise, it is quite ridiculous to base one's faith or lack thereof in God by consulting with people who have in no way studied scripture but who loudly shout out their uninformed guesses based on their feelings.

You're right. But what if anthropologists and language experts doubt the accuracy of even the writing itself? Surely their work is enough to show that they have indeed studied and understood the bible and rejected it's contents as innacurate and loosely put together hundreds of years after said events. People back then believed in dragons, come on. You really want to live your life based on hundreds of years old campfire stories, which THEN were finally written down? I don't even trust word of mouth in today's society and people can read and write... so that's a measure of intelligence I suppose.

Even if the events were true, things have gotten lost in translation and parts were added and edited to suit certain purposes and certain people.

 

[backbreaker]

(I realize I'm talking to no one, but I'm fascinated with this idea at the moment)

The Gnostics were always supposed to have been guarding some great secret about Christianity. Maybe the secret was not that Jesus wasn't supernatural. Instead, it was that as a child especially, he was supernatural in some ways that were not very nice at all. That would explain why the New Testament lacks anything about Jesus as a child. That's the part that they cut out, because it doesn't sell the story.

Backbreaker posted on here about his toddler son getting mad over being disallowed more ice cream and throwing his phone in the toilet in retaliation. The Gospel of Thomas stories about the child Jesus made me think of that. He wields supernatural power with just about as much maturity as you would expect of a small child.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm
This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone....

But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...500-year-old-bible-from-turkey_n_1296672.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

 

[backbreaker]

I remember that thread and people were telling you to see a doctor because it sounded very much like a medical condition. If it doesn't go away with drugs and a healthy lifestyle, then you can claim it was indeed the supernatural.

What you experienced was the same thing the rest of us experience on drugs like LSD or mushrooms. Supernatural or warping of the mind to see what it wants to see?



You're right. But what if anthropologists and language experts doubt the accuracy of even the writing itself? Surely their work is enough to show that they have indeed studied and understood the bible and rejected it's contents as innacurate and loosely put together hundreds of years after said events. People back then believed in dragons, come on. You really want to live your life based on hundreds of years old campfire stories, which THEN were finally written down? I don't even trust word of mouth in today's society and people can read and write... so that's a measure of intelligence I suppose.

Even if the events were true, things have gotten lost in translation and parts were added and edited to suit certain purposes and certain people.

one of the biggest myths are that atheists don't know what's in the bible. To the contrary from my atheist come from 2 schools.. 1. people who were raised atheist and 2. people who have converted from a belief to atheism. number 2 people, generally know enough ab out the bible to know they don't believe it. otherwise they would keep on with the tradition of going to church/believing in god.

Likewise, it is quite ridiculous to base one's faith or lack thereof in God by consulting with people who have in no way studied scripture but who loudly shout out their uninformed guesses based on their feelings.

you are basically outlining the difference between Catholics and Protestants

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/95_Theses

the way i was raised in church was that you had to read the bible yourself and determine what the word of god meant to you, and that your relationship wtih god, not a preise is the only thing that matters at the end of the day, classic Protestant. no man, rather it be a priest or a barber should interprate the word of god for YOU.

Even if the events were true, things have gotten lost in translation and parts were added and edited to suit certain purposes and certain people.

also to ad that some of the events if not most are 100% fabricated. at least in my own opinion.

Moses has the same "story".. born, was hidden to exacaped from being killed by the king at the time to live with a woman who nourished him and he grew up to be a mighty leader of men, as Cryus the great and even Zeus to a lesser extent in the bible. There is not, one shred of actual evident that Abraham ever existed. not one. and this is a debate i have had with a few friends over somne years and trust me when i say there is NONE. i'm not saying he never existed i'm saying besides a few bible scritures, a man as important to have basically the god father of 3 main religions on earth today, there is nothing there. The Noah's ark story isa carbon copy of What is found in the Babylonian Gilgamesh poem.


Here is my theory on the bible, in particular the old testament / Torah

you have to know enough about history to understand what was going on at the time the bible was written and why the bible was originally written in the first place. The first bible was written around the time in the bible of first / 2nd kings. The people had been driven from their land and forced to live in capitivty in Babylon at this time. there were NO ties to the old land and the people had no idenity. You had generations of people growing up who had no clue as to what their god was or said or where they were from as a people or their history as a people and no way to connect with this.

the original bible, as in the first 5 books of the bible or so were written for this purpose. To provide "answers" to speak to the people who were living in a foreign country to know who they are, what they believed in or where supposed to believe in and how we can get back to the land where we are from.

now, with this in mind, there presents a problem. how do you connect with these people that are reading this group of stories? how do you give them a sense of pride, of nationality if you will. The history of the Israelite is almost certainty not as written in the bible, they most likely never actually lived in Egypt as there is not one shred of historical evidence to suggest that they ever lived in Egypt around the time that is stated besides the text in the bible. let me put that in perspective. I think when people look at Genesis and Exodus, Exodus in particular they look at this as some time "thousands and thousands of years ago" but it wasn't THAT long ago.

hypothetically if this were correct, jacob was the first Israelite in egypt according to genesis around 1900ish BC. they exited Eypt with moses around 1400 ish BC. that's off i can tell you but not by alot.

King tut, ruled eypt in the 1300's BC and we have reconstructed this dude's entire face to a T. yet you can't tell me that we don't have one shread of evidence of an entire race / enthieticy of slaves from about that same time period.

anyway I digress. my point being if you are fracturing something from complete scratch.. your history.. if you will. you are going to draw it up from something around you that's just human nature. if i told you to make up a completely fake story about your history the first ing you would do is think about other people's histories and draw from that.

this is what i think the bible is at least most of the old testament. tales of fabricated peoples re worded to provide a sense of self worth and history.

I do not think this applies to the new testament. the problem people look at the bible in black and white and it's really not. I think you have three groups of the bible


1. did not happen whatsoever

pretty much everything up until ..... I will say... david slaying Goliath. believe it or not there is proof that actually happen.

but the thing is, the david and Goliath story happened in the first book of Samuel and that's the 9th book in the bible. so that means you have 8 books of history that had to be accounted for. i would throw the virgin birth in here for obvious reasons.


2. things that probably did happen but were blown out of proportion

The kingdom of david and king Solomon fall into this placatory. some of the jesus stories probably as well in the new testament. king solomon did exist beyond a shadow of a doubt but i doubt he was as bad ass as the bible pants him out to be. King david was much more ruthless than the bible protays him to be. He was a somewhat modern day Attila the Hun in reality. I am pretty confident in saying that a man named Jesus did exist from the city of Galihee who proclaimed to be a prist and I am petty sure he was killed by the romans but i am not sure he died on the cross. neither are alot of scholars.

3. things that without a doubt did happen


the stories of peter and paul how they spread Christianity, defiantly happened beyond a reasonable doubt. pretty much everyting after St John is dead accurate.