Below average chump needs some help!

[Albatross953]

Ok so I will keep this as brief as I can.

I am 39, recently separated and its been a LONG time since I even tried to hit on a girl. The goal here for me is to not be a dumb ass when trying to make a move. I have no interest in being with every girl around. Call it whatever.

There is a woman at work, 41 also recently separated. For a couple of months, I have been using a program from a major marriage site to win her over. Its working. I am here so I can hopefully stay out of the friend zone.
I have known this girl for ten years. She introduced me to my wife!

Every day we go for lunch or a walk, talk for half an hour or do other stuff. Mostly at work but we have seen each other outside of work. I know this is painfully slow for you guys - remember its been a long time. Also the two of us together would be a scandal at work. Oh and another thing you are going to need to know, she was with one guy for twenty five years...and hasn't dated yet.

Been on this site for about a week read a LOT. Some really good stuff - I actually asked a girl once if I could kiss her - dumbass!

Question I have for you, a week ago she starts ignoring my texts and says at work - have a great weekend. Which was odd cause we usually talk weekends. I send a text Thurs no response. Friday another no response. So I try something from the site and black her out for three days. Send nothing.

Get to work today and she seems angry. Apologizes for not responding and we take a walk. But something has really changed. Her attitude is well hurt.

Is this good? Did I get the point across? I know I am a complete moron with women but I was married eleven years and never so much as looked at another woman. So cut me some slack..

What do I do with this one?

 

[Jeffst1980]

You are likely already in friendzone, and the fact that you are trying to subtly "game" her is making her uncomfortable.

When you spend THAT much time with a girl without making a move, you make it nearly impossible for her to view you in a sexual light.

My advice: study the material on this site- it will teach you how to attract NEW women that have yet to form an opinion of you. You will be surprised how much easier it is to game younger, hotter women, compared to gaming this longtime friend.

 

[Albatross953]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if I had triggered something like that or it was simply that she literally has not been with anyone new - maybe never. Some of the stuff she says really points to a relationship interest on her part. The other site I use points all these out as markers and we hit them like clockwork. According to them the next step is to run off to bed. Thats why I was chewing on just making a move this week until this happened. Like I said its been a LONG time for both of us!

Really like this girl and we'll be good friends anyway.

Any comments on getting out of "friendzone"?

 

[Albatross953]

Actually one other thing, why would me not texting her set her off if we are in the friend zone? I know - don't read them they don't work like that..

Now I am off to read the MB thread again cause I was crying I was laughing so hard the first time.

 

[supremacy]

she starts ignoring my texts

What makes you think she is ignoring your texts? You cannot assume this....she might just be busy. Either way however; she is too busy for you.

Thurs no response. Friday another no response

Take a hint.
She might be too nice and not able to tell you she is not interested. You need to learn when a woman is interested and when she isn't.....the signs are pretty clear dude.

If on the small side that she is interested than she has demonstrated emotional issues on her side and some red flag behaviour.....which is never a good thing to get yourself into.

These of course are just points I make from the little you have shared with us.

 

[mahoney]

I send a text Thurs no response. Friday another no response. So I try something from the site and black her out for three days. Send nothing.

Get to work today and she seems angry. Apologizes for not responding and we take a walk. But something has really changed. Her attitude is well hurt.

wait, who apologized for not responding? her for the thurs/fri non-responses, or you for the 3 day black out non-response?

either way dont get too hung up on texts, its a bad pattern to get into

now im going to throw in something about if you have gone non-contact for a little while, or off-the-radar, , or pulled back your contact a lot

if you do this - and she notices and asks about it - you must deny you have done this! "whaaaat? don't be silly!". if she has noticed, then that is great - but it appear to be something thats in her mind not something you have actually done

 

[Albatross953]

She apologized for not responding, I am not that much of a chump! OK maybe close.

The site I was using (relationships) talks about how to build up over time, not about gaming or anything so thats what I have been doing. Meeting emotional needs and the like.

So far its working but we are at a critical juncture. I think you are right I am trapped in the friend zome. I am still on plan but your comments were helpful.

Tomorrow I arranged coffee with my instructor for night classes. Shes about my age, single and somewhat aggressive. Any suggestions on how to handle her? I have done a lot of reading but anything you'd tell a newbie as the top five things to not fu*k up?

 

[Diaforetikos]

My advice is to put the first girl on the backburner for 3-4 weeks. Cut down your lunches. Text a hell of a lot less as well. When she doesn't think about you anymore, then you re-game her like before.

That other site your dealing with sounds like it's good once you have just entered a relationship. Don't use it for picking up women. Their emothional needs aren't your concern until you've entered a relationship. Just read some stuff from the DJ Bible.

Here are some of my ideas for the next girl on your list. Please take these things with a grain of salt. I also recommend having some more knowledge and experience under your belt before you put these tips into practice. Here they are:

First thing is to listen to her. Then give feedback on what she has said. Otherwise you'll think too much and make things worse for yourself. Flirt throughout the night. You have to show her that your sexually interested in her, otherwise she'll assume your looking for a friendship. So that means slowly escalate your physical contact with her. Start small and work your way up. But that means you need to escalate emotionally as well, which is why flirting is important.

Be careful with your instructor, because she is your instructor and my have some personal rules about dating clients and such.

My last bit of advice is to become well experienced in the art of charismatic conversations. Become a charmer. Learn to be witty, funny (not a clown, just good with jokes), and light-hearted. Wit and charm are powerful add ons to your game and are your base for flirting. Learn them.

Good luck mate. Updates, updates.

 

[Albatross953]

You guys were right on the money about girl number one. Asked her for a drink and got the lets be friends thing. Damn!

Back burner - or cut off completely. Let her miss those lunches and long talks. See if her dog can meet her emotional needs lol.

Seriously on to number two. Also started applying some lessons in public. Its actually really easy to get girls to smile at you and say a few things. Who the h*ll knew haha

 

[49au]

Stop reading the numerous "how do I respond to this text" or "she touched my hand, does that mean she wants me?" threads and start reading threads about confidence, inner game, pedestaling women, and your general attitude toward your own life.

A lot of the fears and questions you have right now will be absolutely meaningless to you once you have genuinely incorporated concepts like these into your worldview:

"I am the prize."
"I do not need any certain woman."
"I have plenty of options."
"I gain or lose zero self-respect from the actions of a woman."
"Success is not about women."
"Mastery of my own life is my goal, not mastery of women."


Once you truly believe these things, you will stop behaving the way that you have, which (as you can clearly see) has led nowhere (despite what she says; if her actions and words are incongruent, go with her actions).

 

[49au]

I also get the feeling you are so concerned about "meeting emotional needs" because you think that is what attracts a woman to a man.

Yes, it is true that if a woman is in a relationship with you, you must satisfy both her emotional and sexual needs... but when picking up a woman, it needs to about fun, desire, tension, and sexuality.

When you wake up those instincts in a woman, she will sleep with you, and after she sleeps with you, she will talk herself into wanting to be with you. Being her emotional tampon and BFF is NOT going to accomplish what you think it is.

 

[Albatross953]

I know I have given very little detail about myself, but am and have been working on those things. The two of us spent time together and it was good - even without sex and lets be honest anyone who has been through a marriage breakdown knows about no sex - but if its not a two way street thats fine. Lets move on.

I have zero interest in interpreting texts, her actions don't agree with them or her words. But I don't really care. I had the balls to find out how she felt and she had her chance. If she wants a shot I would think about it.

Not looking to pick up every cutie at the local community college, but I would like to get my bearings cause its been a while and no shi* I was never a don juan even in my twenties!

I will take the advice with instructor..thanks

 

[Albatross953]

Emotional tampon? That doesn't sound like a job anybody wants..

Lets be clear, I think fulfilling emotional needs will build romantic love. In a year on the other site I saw it happen. Almost saved my marriage after a massive crisis.

But thats not why I am here. This site I want to use to talk to girls at the supermarket.

So I do have my goals straight. You get them on the hook, and if they aren't catch and release, I can hang them on the wall with the other stuff I learned.

Thnaks though do appreciate the advice.

 

[49au]

So I do have my goals straight. You get them on the hook, and if they aren't catch and release, I can hang them on the wall with the other stuff I learned.

Just be careful that you don't start trying to "meet emotional needs" too soon. Context is everything.

I could be wrong, but it just seems that you're more interested in "higher level" emotions to win a woman, when in reality your focus needs to be on stimulating her more base/primal emotions (lust, desire, jealousy, etc.).

This is why so many women moan about their "selfish" boyfriends to their desperate male orbiters, who show them all the sympathy and "emotional connection" in the world, then go bang said boyfriends.

Also, the goal of "winning a woman's heart" is actually counter productive. To paraphrase Doc Love (I think it was him), the key is not to show her how interested you are in her; the key is to raise her interest in YOU. It's possible for us to lose focus after we initially attract a woman, and say, "now I am going to prove to her that I am good enough for her and can meet her needs." The outcome of that is never good. She has a billion guys trying to meet her needs. Be the one challenging her to meet YOUR needs and YOUR standards. You will be shocked at the effect.

 

[Albatross953]

OK so how to challenge her to meet my needs? I am all ears...

I have read virtually all the tips on the website in the last week. Some good stuff that I have never done. Some mistakes highlighted I have made.

Had coffee with the instructor, went well we are still talking. It was a lot of fun, she told me a few times I was funny, smart, obvious she likes me. Whats next? It was noon coffee so its not like I would ask her to go back with me to her place.

Also found out she lives with a BF. Not sure why she'd ask me for coffee like that. Her emails have been pretty friendly throwing a vibe.

Can you walk me through how you'd escalate coffee? Whats the goal in the first meet?

 

[49au]

Making a woman feel that she needs to meet YOUR standards, that YOU are the prize, is something you do with a mix of subtlety and directness.

As you gain more confidence in yourself this will happen naturally without you even having to think about it.

One thing that is important is to make her qualify herself to you, especially if she is hot. Here is an example of a guy getting a super hot woman to qualify herself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC0hrqbhx5M Granted this is not "real life" and he tells her what he is doing, but the psychological effect is huge. Remember, 99% of guys try to convince women, "I am good enough for you." They do this in numerous ways. And women are used to this. It bores them. But in the rare case where THEY feel challenged to prove that they are someone worthy of YOUR attention, their ego kicks into high gear.

But this is something that must be done delicately. If it's done condescendingly it will backfire. The example in the video (starting around 3:45, may as well watch it all though) is a little too direct for my taste. But something needs to be done to subtly communicate to her that you are a man of VALUE and STANDARDS who needs to know that she is worthy of your attention. I think opportunities to do this in a non-threatening, non-condescending way will arise naturally within conversation.

It is also important to communicate that you have options. This is not something you come out directly and say, obviously. This is subtle. She needs to see other women respond positively around you, even flirtatiously. Sprinkle your conversation with references to female "friends" (don't make anything up of course). Demonstrate that you are social and capable of talking effectively to other people. If she gets the sense that she is not your "prospect" at the moment, and IF there is attraction there on her part, it will amplify it.

And here's an important one: treat attractive women like your kid sister (teasing, negging, being non-chalant, not reacting to their drama, etc.). This is so powerful. It sends the subconscious message, "I am not afraid of you." Women don't want a man who is dumbstruck by their beauty. They want a man who is stronger than them and can clearly show dominance and remain calm despite their physical allure. I'm sure you've read a little bit about ****y/funny and this is where that comes in. That mindset makes them want to gain your approval. And it also disarms their defense mechanisms - "this guy isn't trying to pick me up, he's teasing me and having fun."

In a nutshell - project yourself as a confident man who is friendly and social, yet has boundaries and self-respect. You are in control of your life. You are not desperate for anyone or anything. You are funny but not a clown; you irreverent but not a prick. You are aloof but not distant; you are sexual but not a creep. You are busy and have a full life.

You project these things by body language, tone, direct statements, indirect statements (casual, passing inferences about female friends, foreign travel, powerful friends, etc.), eye contact, and the confident, natural way you touch her.

I would love to write more about this, but I don't want this to be too long.

As for the instructor having a boyfriend, never ever ever bring him up. Ever. There is some good material on here about "boyfriend destroyers", in case she does bring him up. But I prefer to view the BF this way: Yes, he's in the picture, but she is having coffee with you. So I will be non-chalant about him, not view him as competition, and just focus on being an attractive guy myself and see what happens.

With that said, girls with BFs are a little tricky, unless of course they're just sluts. The reason is that you have to be aggressive enough to let her feel that "things just happened and I couldn't help it," yet you have to be passive enough that you don't trigger her defenses and make her feel guilt/shame for being attracted to you and exploring you as an option while she still has a BF. I'm sure there are some good threads about this lying around as well.


In each meeting I would focus on just having a genuinely good conversation. Casual, fun, flirty conversation. Talk about exciting things you've done, get her to share exciting things she's done. Talk about things that make her laugh and/or feel. Mirror her. Let her do most of the talking. People want to feel heard.

If you can master the art of conversing with a woman without going into the same stupid "interview questions" that 99% of guys do, you are off to a great start. I still have a long way to go, but as an example, there have been numerous times I have met and talked to a girl for half an hour without us ever even mentioning what I do for a living, if/where she goes to school, etc. We have fun conversations, not interviews. For example, with a girl I was out on a double date with a few weeks ago, we randomly started picking people out in the bar and "analyzing" them, making up their life stories and psychological makeup. We also picked out couples and "analyzed" their relationship based on body language. I know this sounds dumb, but we spent a bit doing having fun and just connecting without the whole "this guy is trying to pick me up" vibe.

What this also accomplishes (and it is very important) is that it makes you a mystery to her. You have talked to her all this time, and because you didn't resort to the interview style, she simply doesn't know that much about you. She just knows how you make her feel. So she will become excited about the idea of figuring you out. This amplifies any existing attraction.

Another important thing is to innocently touch her (read kino threads). This has a huge impact.

Depending on her level of attraction to you, you may get signals. If the signals are strong enough, you need to respond in kind and keep physically escalating. If you can tell that she likes you but she is still being somewhat reserved, just play it cool.



btw - sometimes you can lure a woman back to your place on a lunch date. I did it once when I found out during lunch that she likes XBox. I told her about this fun game I had just gotten and casually invited her over to play. She came over, we played a little bit (important to actually follow through), then we made out like crazy. It was the first date so she didn't let me bang her, but I'm just saying that you can sometimes find ways to get them over that don't involve the usual "let's have a drink back at my place."

 

[Albatross953]

OK so an update and then two questions.

Talked to the instructor again via email, continues to move along shes friendly so I put the brakes on for a day - I figured playing cool is better than inviting her again quick - if I take your advice correctly on the bf thing.
Banged the ex this week LOL don't ask.
Couple of woomen I think noticed some changes and threw me a vibe. Trying to put it into practice - mixed results.

The woman at work I have all but gone NC with. Its not possible to entirely be separate, but I figured hi and a smile is OK. I did send one text Friday and she responded.

Couple of questions on her:

Shes gave me all kinds of signals for weeks - body language, touch, talking about sex life, invited me over to see her house (no sex). Everything says she is really into me, and my situation is just still too hot for her with the separation.

I like this girl - how do I deal with the oneitis? I am spinning plates like mad, but I see her every day and its driving me nuts that she said LJBFs. Any tips?

Secondly do you see how I get her? Or is this truly hopeless? Jesus I will have to get a new job! But if I want to try is it a week, two, three of seudo NC and then restart game? How? How do I explain NC as anything other than manipulation?

I know, oneitis, I know. I am halfway through the book of pook.

 

[Albatross953]

BUMP - could really use help on those two questions. Thanks

 

[Albatross953]

Hey 49 still NC with the girl at work, still working on instructor,

any thoughts?

 

[49au]

Banged the ex this week LOL don't ask.
Couple of woomen I think noticed some changes and threw me a vibe.

When you get laid, it makes you less desperate (subconsciously) for action and women can sense that. Banging your ex could be helpful to you as long as you can compartmentalize your emotions, and as long as she isn't psycho (I maintained a FB relationship with a psycho ex once, that did NOT have good consequences once I started seeing other women).

Shes gave me all kinds of signals for weeks - body language, touch, talking about sex life, invited me over to see her house (no sex). Everything says she is really into me, and my situation is just still too hot for her with the separation.

She was sending you some strong signals, obviously. What happened at her house? I could be wrong, but I think she wanted you to make a move on her and get past all this 'talking' stuff and you didn't. If that is the case, you may never get another shot with her. This is a very real possibility.

The other possibility is that she really likes you but just isn't ready, as you said. Or she could have just wanted attention and validation, and not been serious at all about getting involved with anyone in any capacity right now.

The thing is though... if any of these scenarios are true, you have to just let her go. She either isn't ready, or she WAS ready and you didn't pull the trigger. So just be friendly but maintain your distance. I actually would initiate zero contact with her at all, unless it was clearly work related. And be polite but indifferent when she contacts you.

But I think your best bet over all is to focus on talking to and finding more women, and eventually you will find one without the baggage that you find just as if not more attractive, who you can have a more proper start with.

The reason her LJBF is driving you nuts is just ego. When you get those feelings, just accept them for what they are, experience them for a few moments, then let them pass. You are not "supposed" to be with her or anyone else. Just know that she is someone you may be able to experience later in life, but not right now. You may find that the moment you honestly let go of wanting her, is the moment she suddenly comes around again.

How do I explain NC as anything other than manipulation?

It isn't manipulation. If you are doing it for manipulation, it's for the wrong reasons.

No contact is so YOU can keep her out of your emotional space long enough to lose the feelings that are blocking your rational thinking about her, and let you focus on your life and on other women without your head being cloudy.

Sometimes women come back as a result of NC. Sometimes they don't.

If she asks you about it, there are plenty of things you can say. You felt she needed some space. You started seeing someone else. You've just been especially busy the last few weeks (if this seems plausible to her).

But whatever... you're not accountable to her anyway.

Your ONLY shot at ever getting her interest where it needs to be is to let HER get the idea that she misses you (you can't force this), move on with your life, see other women, let HER notice the changes in you, and if she does start showing interest again, make her work for your attention. Do NOT give it fully or immediately.