Article: Shouldn't Men have a choice too?

Jvesti

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http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/LA_Daily_Journal_Shouldnt_Men_Have_a_Choice_too_18FEB02.htm

Shouldn't Men Have a Choice, Too?
The Los Angeles Daily Journal and the San Francisco Daily Journal, U.S., by Glenn Sacks, February 18, 2002,

Jennifer was crushed when she was told that a baby was on the way. She wants to have children, but the right way--after she has found the right person and is married. But in Jennifer's country, she has no choice. "Jenn" cannot give the child up for adoption, and she cannot terminate the pregnancy. It is her burden to bear, for the next two decades, like it or not.

What country is it which compels a person to have a child they don't want? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia?

No, it's the United States--not for Jenn, but for Ken.

Ken Johnson, a 10 year veteran of the Seattle Fire Department, wanted to be a father, but with the right woman, and at the right time. Three years ago he and his wife separated after six years of marriage, and each began to date. During this time, according to court documents filed in Snohomish County, Washington, Ken had a brief affair with "Cathy," which resulted in a pregnancy. Ken's legal complaint alleges that he begged Cathy to put the child up for adoption or to terminate the pregnancy, but Cathy refused. Now Ken and his wife, who reconciled two and a half years ago, can't start a family of their own because almost half of Ken's net income from the Seattle Fire Department goes to support the child he didn't want to have. He says:

"People tell me that Cathy should have the choice whether to keep the child or not because it's her body so it's her choice. I agree. But what about my body? I make my living rushing into burning buildings. I put my life and my safety on the line every time I go to work, and now I'm on the hook for 18 years. With the child support demands on me, there's no way I'll ever be able to quit. What about my choice?"

Johnson is part of a growing movement of men who bristle at being "coerced fathers," and who have enlisted in a "Choice for Men" movement whose goals are every bit as legitimate as the goals of the women's reproductive rights movement. They note that one million American women legally walk away from motherhood every year by either adoption, abortion, or abandonment, and demand that men, like women, be given reproductive options. They point out that, unlike women, men have no reliable contraception available to them, since the failure rate of condoms is substantial, and vasectomies are generally only worthwhile for older men who have already married and had children. And they emphasize that, with long backlogs of stable, two-parent families looking for babies to adopt, there is no reason for any child born out of wedlock to a "coerced father" to be without a good home.

The Choice for Men movement seeks to give "coerced fathers" the right to relinquish their parental rights and responsibilities within a month of learning of a pregnancy, just as mothers do when they choose to give their children up for adoption. These men would be obligated to provide legitimate financial compensation to cover natal medical expenses, the mother's loss of income during pregnancy, etc. The right would only apply to pregnancies which occurred outside of marriage.

Some of those who fought for women's reproductive choices agree with choice for men. Karen DeCrow, former president of the National Organization for Women, writes:

"If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring a pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support ... autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice."

To date, courts have refused to consider fathers' reproductive rights even in the most extreme cases, including: when child support is demanded from men who were as young as 12 when they were statutorily raped by older women; when women have taken the semen from a used condom and inserted it in themselves, including from condoms used only in oral sex; and when women concealed the pregnancy from the man (denying him the right to be a father) and then sued for back and current child support eight or ten years later.

"It doesn't make sense to me," Ken's wife Patti says. "The courts force my husband and I to support a child he never agreed to, but make it financially impossible for him to have a child with the woman he loves and married."
I thought this was a great article on the double standard in society right now. Women totally control reproduction and their childrens destiny. Men dont have any rights in it even though we are financially obligated. whether the child goes up for adoption or is aborted. The man has no say and will be paying out the ass half his income for a baby he might not have even wanted. What can we do about things like these.

I propose 2 things:

1. Do not obligate the father legally to support a child
2. Do not have the gov't intervene in supporting a child

It'll clear a lot of this crap up right away. It will create responsibility and accountability for ones actions.

Discuss
 

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Yep its disgusting the way things are at the moment regarding men and their "rights" or lack of rights on this topic.

But without sounding too cynical I cant see things changing for quite awhile or at least until all men start saying enough is enough, too many are reliant on the cash cow (men), not just women but institutions like the legal system and I cant see them giving it up without a fight any time soon.

I want a choice just like she does, for now its just denying everything and that I even know her but fvck theres got to be an easier way.
 

Don Pablo

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Another question. If she wanted to put the kid up for adoption, and you wanted to keep it, could you do so?
 

Double

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i only believe in science giving us a solution, no hope at all for the government changing things in the next decades, the situation has first to reach rock bottom before people will fully realize it.
 

Don Pablo

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A male birth control pill in conjunction with a condom could prevent alot of headaches, I think.
 

Jvesti

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I read a statistic a British magazine quoted from doing a study which stated that 50-60% of women have no problem being deceptional when trying to or trying not to have a child.
 

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Originally posted by Jvesti
I read a statistic a British magazine quoted from doing a study which stated that 50-60% of women have no problem being deceptional when trying to or trying not to have a child.
Add 40 % for the chicks who lied. Seriously though I wouldnt be holding too much stock in any surveys that involve women saying what they would do.

Hell the other 40 % who said they wouldnt be deceptional might have even meant it THE DAY THEY SAID IT, When your a creature lead by emotions and feelings TOMORROW is a whole other day.
 

diplomatic_lies

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They've invented the male birth control pill now, although its still in testing phase.
 

A-Unit

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Re

Nice article, Jim.


That alone should encourage every guy here to wrap, re-wrap it, keep it wrapped, pull out, and burn the condom.


This is reality, boys, and while she's a beauty across the club floor, she's a tiger in bed, and a snake in the court room. She will do what she can protect herself and gain the upper gain, thinking only of herself.



A-Unit
 

Rollo Tomassi

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There's actually a story of a reverse case of this I read somewhere on the net where this religious guy got a girl pregnant and he wanted her to have the child, but she aborted the pregnancy. It was her body and she made the decision.

A-UNIT is right, it's called birth controll because you 'control' the birth. There are presently 41 different types of contraception available for women, for men there are only 2 - vasectomy or a condom. Your only line of defense against this 'choice'. The only thing separating a man from a lifetime (not just 18 years) of interacting with the decider of altering the course of your life is a thin layer of latex.

NEVER allow a woman to be in control of the birth. Always have protection. I've had far too many guys hit me with the argument that they trust their girlfriends to be on the pill or whatever and that she "doesn't want kids" only to be an unprepared Daddy 9 month later after an 'accident'. The only accident they had was not being in control of the birth themselves. In fact I'd argue that men need to use extra caution when in an LTR since the ease of getting too relaxed with her is present.

Accidental pregnancy is practically a cottage industry now. For a woman without education (or even with) and without means, an 'inplanned' pregnancy may be a pretty good prospect, especially when every law and social expectation weighs in her favor. These are professional mommies. When I counseld in Reno I knew a guy who married this woman who had 3 children from 2 Fathers who he himself had impregnated with her 4th. She was a professional Mother.
 

italostud

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My god, excellent article. Sums up my thoughts exactly. The way things are now, do not make any sense. I'm sad to hear that this is from a male's rights advocate's website. That means that the article will probably not be taken too seriously. Shame.
 

SAYNO

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I knew a Guy..

Once who's wife got pregnant after claiming that she was taking her birth control pills. Only problem is that she was also a lush-head and would get drunk and then breast feed the baby.

They eventually broke up, but luckily for him he was able to prove that the lady wasn't a good mother and he got full custody. But, this is a very wealthy guy, too many other guys have thier lives ruined by unplanned pregnacies and lying decitful women.




Sayno'
 

Nighthawk

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I'm not saying the present laws are fair but...

If it were men who got pregnant, and an accident happened (as they sometimes do) and you got knocked up with a child by a woman you didn't want to share parenthood with, or you just plain didn't want to be a father, w and the lawe said that she had the right to force you to keep the child, would you think that was just?

Or imagine you did want your child - should a woman be able to force you to abort it or give it up for adoption? I think most men here would feel that as they were the one who was going to carry it and deliver it, they should have slightly more say in the decision than the woman.

It's not ideal that a man should have to pay for a child he never wanted but if you accept that it's the bearers right to choose (and you may not), then if a child is born you're a pretty lousy human being if you let your child know that you don't want to support it because you wished it had never been born.
 
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Wyldfire

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"Ken" did have a choice...it's called abstinence or a condom.

Men have the choice of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy by either not having sex or wearing a condom. This is common sense and every man knows the risks when he has sex. They also know that IF the woman gets pregnant he will have NO control over what she chooses to do about it.

It's not like men don't KNOW the risks. If you don't want to risk paying child support for 18 years then either don't have sex or wear a damn condom.

Complaining about this is like someone complaining about being thrown from a car in an accident when they chose not to wear their seatbelt.

Be responsible in protecting yourself against things you don't want to happen. If you don't protect yourself from an unwanted pregnancy by wearing a condom it is YOUR OWN FAULT if you find yourself paying child support for 18 years. You KNEW the risk was there and made the choice to be irresponsible.

Just because the driver of the car you are in says they are a good driver doesn't mean you shouldn't wear your seat belt...JUST IN CASE.
 

italostud

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Originally posted by Nighthawk
I'm not saying the present laws are fair but...

If it were men who got pregnant, and an accident happened (as they sometimes do) and you got knocked up with a child by a woman you didn't want to share parenthood with, or you just plain didn't want to be a father, would and she had the right to force you to keep the child, would you think that was just?

Or imagine you did want your child - should a woman be able to force you to abort it or give it up for adoption? I think most men here would feel that as they were the one who was going to carry it and deliver it, they should have slightly more say in the decision than the woman.

It's not ideal that a man should have to pay for a child he never wanted but if you accept that it's the bearers right to choose (and you may not), then if a child is born you're a pretty lousy human being if you let your child know that you don't want to support it because you wished it had never been born.
I don't think that they could ever write a law that would allow for the man to force the woman to get an abortion or give it up for adoption. But maybe, not forcing the man to pay child support?

That's what I think would be fair. If the woman wants to have the child, fine, let her have it, but don't make the father pay child support if he doesn't want it.
 

italostud

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Originally posted by Wyldfire
"Ken" did have a choice...it's called abstinence or a condom.

Men have the choice of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy by either not having sex or wearing a condom. This is common sense and every man knows the risks when he has sex. They also know that IF the woman gets pregnant he will have NO control over what she chooses to do about it.

It's not like men don't KNOW the risks. If you don't want to risk paying child support for 18 years then either don't have sex or wear a damn condom.

Complaining about this is like someone complaining about being thrown from a car in an accident when they chose not to wear their seatbelt.

Be responsible in protecting yourself against things you don't want to happen. If you don't protect yourself from an unwanted pregnancy by wearing a condom it is YOUR OWN FAULT if you find yourself paying child support for 18 years. You KNEW the risk was there and made the choice to be irresponsible.

Just because the driver of the car you are in says they are a good driver doesn't mean you shouldn't wear your seat belt...JUST IN CASE.

Firstly, the suggestion that it's as easy as saying "I'll just be celibate" is ridiculous.

A condom, is obviously a very good choice for one night stands and short term relationships. But what about when you're with a girl for a couple of years? How many couples do you know that still use condoms after a year of sex? The woman will inevitably go on birth control, and the condoms stop.


Also, saying that it's the man's fault if she gets preggo because the risk was there...then you must also agree that it's just as much the woman's fault for having sex with him without a condom?
 

Wyldfire

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Originally posted by italostud
Firstly, the suggestion that it's as easy as saying "I'll just be celibate" is ridiculous.

A condom, is obviously a very good choice for one night stands and short term relationships. But what about when you're with a girl for a couple of years? How many couples do you know that still use condoms after a year of sex? The woman will inevitably go on birth control, and the condoms stop.


Also, saying that it's the man's fault if she gets preggo because the risk was there...then you must also agree that it's just as much the woman's fault for having sex with him without a condom?
Yes, it's the woman's fault too...but men all KNOW that the woman will be the one who makes the decision about what to do about the pregnancy. Men KNOW this...and as a result they have to continue to protect themselves even in a realtionship if they want to be sure they don't end up becoming a father against their wishes.

Placing blame on the woman and complaining about it after the fact doesn't change the fact that the guy is a father against his wishes. If you don't want a kid then avoid it by protecting youself ALL THE TIME. Period.
 
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