Are you the nice guy or the good guy?

[BeExcellent]

Apparently I missed this thread over the holidays. Here's my $0.02 from the ladies' locker room:

First I strongly agree with @Serenity on this topic.

The "Nice Guy" is inauthentic in some way shape or form.

The bad boy, player/playboy, and good man/solid man are honest and authentic about who they are & what they want.

The "Nice Guy" is too afraid to own his desires so he tries covertly, to win a woman's affection by giving. But his giving always has strings attached vis a vis his expectations. He thinks giving will get him the result he wants and is quite disappointed and feels used when it doesn't work. But he sets himself up for failure.

It's not that men should be an ass hole. A generous nature (giving) is a good thing and is part of any healthy relationship. But you give to give. Without expectation.

You do not give to get. That is the difference.

Women, especially beautiful women, can smell "give to get" men a mile away. Let me illustrate. For example, a number of times, when I have been out on business over the years, I'll be at dinner somewhere nice, alone, and some man will pick up my tab unbeknownst to me. Then when I go to pay my tab the staff tells me that the man over there bought my meal, etc.

Without exception such men expect a Thank You, an acknowledgement, a conversation. At times they expect MUCH more, as though they have somehow purchased my time by buying dinner/drinks for a woman they do not know.

Without exception these men do not approach first to introduce themselves, they lead with their resources in presumptively paying my tab & expecting some sort of interaction after. Its quite arrogant in a way, and this is not how young men without means operate (they can't afford to), but in younger men it manifests more in trying to be her bestie & get close to her through being 'friends' since buying her stuff is not in the cards.

Both with the men randomly buying me dinner and in the men trying to be 'friends' with women they fancy there is an alterior motive and it is indirect. Then these men get angry or but hurt when the girl they fancy gets with a man who is NOT a "Nice Guy" and they think she somehow owes them something.

You see at his core the "Nice Guy" is disingenous and there is nothing Nice at all about that.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Acting like an entitled doormat is basically the foundation of Nice Guy.

As to Nice Guy or Good Guy, I'm neither. One of my kittens calls me the 'dark gentleman', which I think might be the most accurate description.

Unless your kitten is colorblind and thinks that you’re black

 

[BillyPilgrim]

My best guess:

The “nice guy” is a guy that loses points for being too passive around women, but he is also not good looking enough to get away with being direct. He’s pretty much screwed but not in a good way.

All that aside, I think our female posters would be best to answer this. Even after 20 years, I can’t say I can fully wrap my head around why the nice guy is so repulsive.

A nice guy has a limited upside. If the daring/risk taking guy doesn't work out, she can still replace him. If a guy tries to start a million dollar business and goes bankrupt, she still has a fallback plan. If the nice guy doesn't work out, she also has a fallback plan but why get with him to begin with?

This has to do with the disposability of the male gender.

 

[BadBoy89]

Apparently I missed this thread over the holidays. Here's my $0.02 from the ladies' locker room:

First I strongly agree with @Serenity on this topic.

The "Nice Guy" is inauthentic in some way shape or form.

The bad boy, player/playboy, and good man/solid man are honest and authentic about who they are & what they want.

The "Nice Guy" is too afraid to own his desires so he tries covertly, to win a woman's affection by giving. But his giving always has strings attached vis a vis his expectations. He thinks giving will get him the result he wants and is quite disappointed and feels used when it doesn't work. But he sets himself up for failure.

It's not that men should be an ass hole. A generous nature (giving) is a good thing and is part of any healthy relationship. But you give to give. Without expectation.

You do not give to get. That is the difference.

Women, especially beautiful women, can smell "give to get" men a mile away. Let me illustrate. For example, a number of times, when I have been out on business over the years, I'll be at dinner somewhere nice, alone, and some man will pick up my tab unbeknownst to me. Then when I go to pay my tab the staff tells me that the man over there bought my meal, etc.

Without exception such men expect a Thank You, an acknowledgement, a conversation. At times they expect MUCH more, as though they have somehow purchased my time by buying dinner/drinks for a woman they do not know.

Without exception these men do not approach first to introduce themselves, they lead with their resources in presumptively paying my tab & expecting some sort of interaction after. Its quite arrogant in a way, and this is not how young men without means operate (they can't afford to), but in younger men it manifests more in trying to be her bestie & get close to her through being 'friends' since buying her stuff is not in the cards.

Both with the men randomly buying me dinner and in the men trying to be 'friends' with women they fancy there is an alterior motive and it is indirect. Then these men get angry or but hurt when the girl they fancy gets with a man who is NOT a "Nice Guy" and they think she somehow owes them something.

You see at his core the "Nice Guy" is disingenous and there is nothing Nice at all about that.

These are good points. The problem is, the nice guy has to do it to get what he wants. When he is. not genetically blessed, he has to use the cards available to him.

Now people are going to say ”you just don’t understand how attraction works, it’s about a man’s personality, his clothes, his character, his overall demeanour, his sense of humour, him not being a pushover.”

We are talking 2024, not 1954. In 2024, a girl takes one look at a man’s height and hair, and, all other things about him being normal, will 90% decide about sex based on those 2.

 

[Serenity]

The bad boy, player/playboy, and good man/solid man are honest and authentic about who they are & what they want.

One of these is not like the other two in my opinion. The bad boy and the good man are honest and authentic, the player not so much.

The bad boy is honest and authentic in that he does what he wants, you can go along with it or basically fvck off. He doesn't compromise, he doesn't care if you want something else and he doesn't apologize for his ways. There's no games played here.

The good guy is honest and authentic in that he will tell you exactly where he stands and what he wants, but unlike the bad boy he is in fact willing to compromise within his boundaries. There's more cooperation than "my way or the highway". There no games played here either.

The player is exactly that, a player of the game. They have more awareness of what in fact works and doesn't work compared to a typical "nice guy". They're not authentic because the types of compromise they're willing to make is weighted more towards making the woman behave as they like than centered around their own personal values. In other words they care more about their short term goal than their character, they'll easily break their integrity if it achieves their goal. There's a lot of games played here, the difference from a nice guy is that they're a lot more skilled in fooling women.

The only argument for a player being perceived as honest and authentic is that they either plays the game really well or really poorly. So well that women don't easily see it or so poorly that women know right away what he is, but accepts the deal anyways.

In the case of playing the game poorly it's still a step up from the nice guy who just insists on their misguided deception. Their intentions are at least very clear, I can see how this has some appeal with some women.

In the case of playing the game really well the woman is in fact fooled for a while, but it's not sustainable because the truth will come forth eventually. It's just a matter of time before the woman realizes it. Some women are more experienced than others, so how long it takes also depends on the woman.

My point is, players are never really clean in terms of honesty and certainly not authenticity.

The rest of your post is about nice guys, I have no disagreements about those points.

Also, you didn't miss this over the recent holidays, this thread is over a year old.

 

[CornbreadFed]

If a girl calls you a nice guy then it is over.

 

[BeExcellent]

One of these is not like the other two in my opinion. The bad boy and the good man are honest and authentic, the player not so much.

The bad boy is honest and authentic in that he does what he wants, you can go along with it or basically fvck off. He doesn't compromise, he doesn't care if you want something else and he doesn't apologize for his ways. There's no games played here.

The good guy is honest and authentic in that he will tell you exactly where he stands and what he wants, but unlike the bad boy he is in fact willing to compromise within his boundaries. There's more cooperation than "my way or the highway". There no games played here either.

The player is exactly that, a player of the game. They have more awareness of what in fact works and doesn't work compared to a typical "nice guy". They're not authentic because the types of compromise they're willing to make is weighted more towards making the woman behave as they like than centered around their own personal values. In other words they care more about their short term goal than their character, they'll easily break their integrity if it achieves their goal. There's a lot of games played here, the difference from a nice guy is that they're a lot more skilled in fooling women.

The only argument for a player being perceived as honest and authentic is that they either plays the game really well or really poorly. So well that women don't easily see it or so poorly that women know right away what he is, but accepts the deal anyways.

In the case of playing the game poorly it's still a step up from the nice guy who just insists on their misguided deception. Their intentions are at least very clear, I can see how this has some appeal with some women.

In the case of playing the game really well the woman is in fact fooled for a while, but it's not sustainable because the truth will come forth eventually. It's just a matter of time before the woman realizes it. Some women are more experienced than others, so how long it takes also depends on the woman.

My point is, players are never really clean in terms of honesty and certainly not authenticity.

The rest of your post is about nice guys, I have no disagreements about those points.

Also, you didn't miss this over the recent holidays, this thread is over a year old.

Fair points, all. Wow. I did miss it altogether a year or so ago. No idea why, lol.

 

[Machine10033]

Nice guy is somewhat of a misnomer. The nice guy that repulses women is actually anything but nice but rather manipulative and underhanded... they have almost no redeeming qualities and play nice to manipulate females into giving them time and attention. They are usually cowards too very afraid of conflict.

A true nice guy isn’t something bad. He’s a good person who is morally sound and lives his life respecting all humans that deserve his respect. He does not play nice with the hopes of gaining anything and can maintain relationships while standing his ground.
...

 

[Manure Spherian]

The bad boy is honest and authentic in that he does what he wants, you can go along with it or basically fvck off. He doesn't compromise, he doesn't care if you want something else and he doesn't apologize for his ways. There's no games played here.

I’ve heard this explanation and, while a “bad boy” might have some of these qualities, they are not why women like actual bad guys. There are some, maybe even many, women who like bad guys because they are bad, and no amount “not giving a fvck” and “exuding confidence” can have ordinary men measuring up in the view of such women. Women who desire such men can spot the baddest and meanest man in a room--the actual bad boy, not just some confident, straightforward guy .

Being a violent criminal, though I certainly don't condone it, inspires lust in some women like nothing else.

Have you ever met or known a drug dealer or gang member without a woman? I haven’t.

Is there a mafiosi with not only a wife, but one mistress after another? Maybe..

I grew up with a violent psychopath in my town. He served some time for felony assault for smashing a bottle over a Marine’s head. He has never been without female company since his early teens and is now married with three children.

Another psycho I grew up with was a 6'2", large-framed gang member good with his hands, so to speak, and had a violent temper. I heard he once intimidated a former friend of his into kneeling before him and to repeat his words (likely something humiliating) in front of a Manhattan bar. I believe this because I saw him in action in another situation and his reputation. He was never without a woman and is now married with two children.

My brother and I are similar looking. However, he had terrible health habits and even yo-yoed in weight into overweight and obesity. Yet, because he was an actual bad boy (he went "away" for some time), he had no issue attracting women, greatly outdoing me in his attractiveness. Even after cleaning his life up, he managed to get into a line of work that has a thrilling edge to it, which attracted women: liquor distribution to establishments in Las Vegas, including strip clubs, clubs, and expensive restaurants. Women even get a buzz out of him being a reformed bad boy.

I believe this is deeper than simply DGAF, but I get your point.

 

[Serenity]

@Manure Spherian I get your point as well. I wasn't really going into what else is so magnetic about bad boys to some women, just that they're generally authentic and don't play stupid games in order to win women over. My point is that a man being real is fundamentally important to women. I would never argue it's the only important factor in attraction, but it is pretty damn important.

Nobody likes inauthentic people, regardless of what social layer they're in.

 

[Foe]

Ive been both. If I give a ****, I tend to be nice guy which inevitably fails and when I could care less, I guess I come across as the bad boy and it never seems to fail.

Im with a 7+ at the moment who I could care less about and she is all over me like you would not believe. Even asked me the other day if Im red pilled, lol.

 

[Foe]

So you care about her?
Or do you mean you couldn't care less?
Also what is the attraction if you don't care about her?

I dont care, if she were to break up with me in some ways its a relief. However, she gives me a good reason not to go back to my ex who would give me a rinse repeat cycle I don't think I'd be strong enough as a single person to avoid if not for this girl.

Shes such low maintenance, easy going and all-round decent partner where one day rolls into the next so I guess I'm just going with the flow. I've done 15y+, 5y+, 6-month relationships, I don't have anything to prove in that sense anymore. I'd be happy to be single, hit the bar scene and do pick up for the next 5 years no problem.

For now this just makes more sense.

 

[jhonny9546]

If I act unconsciously, I'm a beta.
If I take active action, I'm a beta trying to put the redpill into practice.

The problem is that I can't really act differently than I do, without feeling "dissatisfied"