Are AFC's ruining it for everyone?

[STR8UP]

Reading backbreakers recent thread that has gotten a little off track, I started wondering.

Do AFC's really "ruin it" for DJ's?

I can see the logic in thinking that way, but on the other hand, I still believe that real women always have and always will want REAL men.

When a woman dates a chump do you think she is really happy? Of course not. She's SETTLING. And what inevitably happens when she settles? She gets restless and get's OUT or she cheats.

I suppose AFC's do drive up the market value of women in a way.

If hot chick "X" receives constant validation from a stream of men, even if they are low quality men that she isn't necessarily into, she still knows she has options. Her worst case is that she ends up with the backup. Men don't always have a constant stream of women following them around waiting for the opportunity to jump in the sack with them like women do. I suppose if you are rich, famous, or VERY attractive, things might be different, but as a general rule a man can't just stand around and smile and have women flock to him.

So it would stand to reason that a female could easily be "deluded" into thinking that her value is higher than it actually is, due to the fact that she always has orbiters. She might not be particularly interested in them, but that doesn't matter; she might not even realize that these chumps who bow to her beauty will never be able to "fulfill" her. She might only find that out AFTER the fact that she has settled for second best.

A part of me really wants to say that the "better" man always comes out on top, but maybe there is a grain of truth to this theory that AFC's make it harder for DJ's. Maybe this is a big part of the reason why everything is so fukked up, why women never seem to be satisfied these days.

I have been a victim of this myself. I got the walking papers from a chick awhile back who, according to her best friend, would never have gone off and married this other guy if I had expressed that I wanted more from her. Since I didn't "put myself out there" she grabbed the next guy who was willing to go with the program and married him a few months later.

It's pretty eye opening to hear that coming from a chick's best friend. Basically, if I (the presumably better catch) would have "stepped up to the plate", I would be the one who was married right now.

What do you think?

 

[DarkShade]

I agree with just about everything, and can understand where you are coming from, except for this part:

why women never seem to be satisfied these days.

I think the problem is that the women are TOO satisfied. When was the last time any somewhat decently cute girl was *forced* to go home alone when she wanted a ONS or even just an AFC to drool over her? I can't imagine too many. Women have become complacent in this regard and they may not understand that they are 'settling' for the puppy dog AFC. God knows they don't want to work for any play, they'll go for the easiest target, or allow themselves to be targetted and get to pick and choose who the successful chump is.

I've silently denied any play from a mutual female friend because she gets so much d1ck whenever she wants that I don't want to allow her any quality goods, I want her to work for them (not that I'd give it, bipolar disorder with two babies)

 

[MrLuvr]

.

Do AFC's really "ruin it" for DJ's?

The problem seems to be that AFC behaviour is becoming the status quo. So, yes, they do ruin it for DJs and men who do not want to toe the womens' line.

As I had mentioned in another thread, you just have to look at all the other "relationship advice" forums out there. The men posting on those forums are total AFCs. They have been figuratively neutered and if it weren't for their usernames, you would think that these were women. It is because when these "men" talk, it is as though they are parroting what the women in their lifes have taught them.

But, the troubling part is that such behaviour has become the mainstream behaviour that is considered to be acceptable by society. If you deviate from being an AFC, you are considered a chauvinist and shunned by women and AFC men.

 

[STR8UP]

I agree with just about everything, and can understand where you are coming from, except for this part:..............I think the problem is that the women are TOO satisfied.

Maybe satisfied is the wrong word.

How about "fulfilled"?

Sure, in the short term they can get whatever they want. But my point was that they might be placated by AFC's on a short term basis, but that doesn't mean they are happy in the long term.

You used a ONS as an example. Of course a woman can get sex whenever she wants it. But is that what she really wants? Sometimes, yes. Most of the time, no.

You are substituting what might keep a man happy for what keeps a woman happy.

Basically, a woman can get whatever she wants, but not necessarily from WHO she wants, and she might not even realize this until she is well into the relationship after she has been duped into settling for second best.

I don't mean to imply that women are stupid or that they don't seek out what is in their best interest, but all one has to do is look around at all of the single mothers out there today and you can see just how well things "worked out" for them.

Another thing that doesn't help the "real man" is the socialist government policies that benefit women and punish men. Sure, go ahead, MARRY the AFC, then take him to the cleaners whenever you feel like cashing in that lottery ticket. Or have a baby no one wants to support.

Here's your check, see you next month!

 

[Jeffst1980]

Good thread. I don't think that they're ruining it for everyone, though--if anything, they're providing a sharp contrast from the kind of man that women ARE attracted to.

A caveat: The one type of AFC that can DIRECTLY ruin it for a man is an orbiter AFC. Nowadays, a woman having straight male platonic friends is readily accepted, even when she's in an LTR. The problem is that 9 times out of 10, these guys aren't in it for the "friendship." They are hell bent on doing everything in their power to passive aggressively remove this woman's boyfriend from her life. The woman may deny that they have ulterior motives, but deep down she's very much aware of the nature of their "friendship." While she's usually not attracted to them, she will relish the attention and often turn to them in times of relationship turmoil as a substitute boyfriend. This is a dangerous precedent and makes the boyfriend the target of a steady stream of negative propaganda by jealous AFCs that believe they're "next in line."

There's no real way to effectively counteract this, as I see it. The best way to avoid it is to make sure your girl knows that it's disrespectful to you to hang out with a guy that clearly wants her. If she can't give up being chased by AFC orbiters, NEXT her.

Of course, there's no hard and fast rules here, and some AFCs are so miniscule a threat theyre not worth the trouble; if a girl has been friends with a guy since childhood, or even before you two got together, doing this will only make you seem controlling. Go with your gut instinct.

 

[Warrior74]

ruining it...not ruining it. It is what it is. stop speculating on reality and live in it. Deal with the matter or get out the game. those are your choices. no bytching and moaning about afcs...they ain't going no where. when the game changes do you complain or step your game up?

 

[window]

So it would stand to reason that a female could easily be "deluded" into thinking that her value is higher than it actually is, due to the fact that she always has orbiters.

Beyond any shadow of a doubt. All woman overestimate their real value and this is a major advantage to the DJ.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

I have been a victim of this myself. I got the walking papers from a chick awhile back who, according to her best friend, would never have gone off and married this other guy if I had expressed that I wanted more from her. Since I didn't "put myself out there" she grabbed the next guy who was willing to go with the program and married him a few months later.

It's pretty eye opening to hear that coming from a chick's best friend. Basically, if I (the presumably better catch) would have "stepped up to the plate", I would be the one who was married right now.

What do you think?

How exactly did your inaction make you a victim?

If you are walking down the street and somebody bashes you in the head with an empty bottle of Chivas, then yea, you're a victim.

But a relationship between two consenting adults where one voluntarily decides to leave to get their unmet needs fulfilled elsewhere, that makes you a victim?

 

[reset]

AFC's may be setting expectations. And you can't blame women for reacting to what they think reality is. They really think men are spineless wimps who will do whatever the woman wants because they see it all the time. That's how it "works" so a woman is usually a little shocked when it "doesn't work" and she's not sure what she's dealing with. A DJ.

What seems to be left out of this is desire. If she is into you, that's it. They are like dogs in heat around you. They CAN'T HELP themselves but be all over you, for the simple fact that you AREN'T this AFC type they are used to. You are pushing their buttons and the LAST thing they are doing is thinking or even comparing you to AFCs they've known.

There is you and nothing else. It's a woman with oneitis. That's the good kind.

If you are truly turning these girls on, there ARE no other guys. They may act that way. They may make it seem like they have their act together or that they may be interested in someone else, but it's like that phrase of the duck looking calm and peaceful on the lake, when under the surface its paddling like crazy. They don't want you to know how much you've affected them. You're supposed to chase THEM, right? Why aren't you? I love you! I hate you! <--chick in heat.

AFCs haven't ruined anything because human nature has not changed. Behavior can change, but the things that make a woman go insane are the same now as they've always been and they are never going to change.

Women rely on how they feel. They don't intellectualize like we do.

 

[DevanE]

A lot of it comes down to CONTROL nowadays with women and it's ridiculously rampant in my university let me elaborate... You would think that a good looking, in shape, intelligent etc etc student like myself shouldn't have any problem what so ever making friends, having social networks etc etc but the main factor that hinders a lot of my process is that I'm not a bia** nor do I supplicate to anyone or anything thus, I don't get controlled, manipulated nor influenced by women easily. I don't disrespect anyone mind you but I'm "weird" as girls say it.

Even though I try to make friends with the guys first the reality is that the girls in the groups are actually running the show. If I DON'T supplicate or act like the typical AFC in the group who is fawning over the girls I get shunned out and it's VERY obvious because my friend that I'm "training" has even noticed that. It's like a dominance thing and the fact of the matter is that I need to "cater" to a girls BS in order for me to be accepted so in a sense it IS ruining it for guys like me due AFC's boosting these chicks head up unnecessarily.

I feel the main problem and I used to have this too is that us guys aren't used to getting a lot of attention from women so when we do get attention we become over excited or feel that it's the only way we are going to get a woman to notice us. (I don't know if that makes sense) So we become reliant on that "fix" and hence, the supplicating/fawning behavior.

Here's another example.

A woman I know in my classes, very attractive, sense of style, humor etc etc...but is married. I would have never thought that in a million years nor did she bring it up because of the way she acts. Now I noticed that she only seems to have guy friends which was weird but soon it started to make sense. She flirts with the guys JUST enough to get them hooked, fawn over her, etc etc and THEN ends up getting them to do her bidding/work/last minute help. Once I picked up on that I realized that she HAD been trying to do the same to me but seemed as if she was frustrated because I wasn't bending the way she expected.

One day we were studying with "her" group and she just flipped out because I started to charm everyone in "her" group and they seemed to be liking me which she couldn't stand because again SHE is running the show. Of course I didn't say anything so it made her look THAT bad but since then I don't acknowledge her anymore. The funny thing is that she gets this OTHER guy to cut me down or make "jokes" as he says but she reinforces her attention on him by laughing at HIS jokes. (Which are lame BTW).

I could give more examples but coming from a student going to a university it's a pain in the ass because AFC's ARE ruining it for guys like me.

 

[Young Juan]

Reading backbreakers recent thread that has gotten a little off track, I started wondering.

Do AFC's really "ruin it" for DJ's?


....It's pretty eye opening to hear that coming from a chick's best friend. Basically, if I (the presumably better catch) would have "stepped up to the plate", I would be the one who was married right now.

What do you think?

I think you should ask yourself 2 questions: 1. If you are ready/wish you were married right now? 2. Did you really want to marry her?

If yes, then you should've stepped up to the plate. If no, albeit subconsciously, you made a great decision not to invite misery into your life.

Now onto the actual topic of this post. No. 50% of AFCs will never make a move because they're waiting on "the moment" rather than making the moment.

Another portion of AFCs are simply ego fluffers for females they may by chance get used by if they're in the right place at the right time, and the woman either can't find any real D around, or has some other alternative Modes Operandi.

About 25% of AFCs max, in my humble opinion, can actually do any thing of negative value to a man that knows his sh!t, knows he knows his sh!t, and isn't caught up with any oneitis.

In my opinion the question is tantamount to asking: Do the Harlem Globetrotters ruin it for the Boston Celtics? Sure, its possible the Celtics may lose some ticket sales to the Globetrotters, but people pay good money to see the Celtics play so their market value is much higher. Sure, I may go see the GT play if they're in town and the tickets are cheap enough, and its convenient for my schedule, but I would probably go out of my way to see the Champs. Sure, the GT are FUNNY and entertaining, but the Celtics are FUN and entertaining. The GT will NEVER beat the modern day Celtics. The Celtics sell out EVERY night, the GT, haven't sold out since the 60s (hyperbole). The only way the Globetrotters beat the Celtics, is if the Celtics beat themselves either by losing thier head, or falling into the "I can win this game effortlessly, so I'm literally not going to put in any effort today" trap.

Damn, if I must say so myself, that's a damn good analogy. Are you a joke or champ? Think about it.

 

[Young Juan]

A lot of it comes down to CONTROL nowadays with women and it's ridiculously rampant in my university let me elaborate... You would think that a good looking, in shape, intelligent etc etc student like myself shouldn't have any problem what so ever making friends, having social networks etc etc but the main factor that hinders a lot of my process is that I'm not a bia** nor do I supplicate to anyone or anything thus, I don't get controlled, manipulated nor influenced by women easily. I don't disrespect anyone mind you but I'm "weird" as girls say it.

Even though I try to make friends with the guys first the reality is that the girls in the groups are actually running the show. If I DON'T supplicate or act like the typical AFC in the group who is fawning over the girls I get shunned out and it's VERY obvious because my friend that I'm "training" has even noticed that. It's like a dominance thing and the fact of the matter is that I need to "cater" to a girls BS in order for me to be accepted so in a sense it IS ruining it for guys like me due AFC's boosting these chicks head up unnecessarily.

I feel the main problem and I used to have this too is that us guys aren't used to getting a lot of attention from women so when we do get attention we become over excited or feel that it's the only way we are going to get a woman to notice us. (I don't know if that makes sense) So we become reliant on that "fix" and hence, the supplicating/fawning behavior.

Here's another example.

A woman I know in my classes, very attractive, sense of style, humor etc etc...but is married. I would have never thought that in a million years nor did she bring it up because of the way she acts. Now I noticed that she only seems to have guy friends which was weird but soon it started to make sense. She flirts with the guys JUST enough to get them hooked, fawn over her, etc etc and THEN ends up getting them to do her bidding/work/last minute help. Once I picked up on that I realized that she HAD been trying to do the same to me but seemed as if she was frustrated because I wasn't bending the way she expected.

One day we were studying with "her" group and she just flipped out because I started to charm everyone in "her" group and they seemed to be liking me which she couldn't stand because again SHE is running the show. Of course I didn't say anything so it made her look THAT bad but since then I don't acknowledge her anymore. The funny thing is that she gets this OTHER guy to cut me down or make "jokes" as he says but she reinforces her attention on him by laughing at HIS jokes. (Which are lame BTW).

I could give more examples but coming from a student going to a university it's a pain in the ass because AFC's ARE ruining it for guys like me.

I remember those days. Those type of folks are usually intellectually repressed and consistently butt-hurt victims of the swift, FUNNY, witty comeback (mainly for the female, ) and the "take comment of out context to make dude appear gay" and state "no homo." e.g You're gonna beat my azz? I'm not into anal, no homo. If he tries to one up you and say your the one with homo thoughts in your head. Go old school and say, "takes one to know one."

If dude isn't really funny, you're sh!t will seem way more funnier and put him in his place as the quickest wit always has the last word when slow wits become embarrassed, stumped, and frustrated. E Z Money

 

[reset]

It's like a dominance thing and the fact of the matter is that I need to "cater" to a girls BS in order for me to be accepted so in a sense it IS ruining it for guys like me

So in other words, you're afraid if you don't act like a chump the girls will not like you.

I'm pretty sure the idea is to make them want to be accepted by YOU.

 

[bigjohnson]

Before the masculinization of western woman and the feminization of western men none of this game horse crap was even needed. Now we have to play games to hold each others interest because we've managed to build a society where we systematically break ourselves.

 

[Duffdog]

Even though I try to make friends with the guys first the reality is that the girls in the groups are actually running the show. If I DON'T supplicate or act like the typical AFC in the group who is fawning over the girls I get shunned out and it's VERY obvious because my friend that I'm "training" has even noticed that. It's like a dominance thing and the fact of the matter is that I need to "cater" to a girls BS in order for me to be accepted so in a sense it IS ruining it for guys like me due AFC's boosting these chicks head up unnecessarily.

Are you a business student? This used to be the standard mode of operation when I would join a group. Yes, you are right, the girls always try to run the show-- the best thing you can do is be the natural leader that I think you are. Don't be afraid to say "that's the stupidest fvcking idea I have ever heard" in the group, because most likely all the other males are thinking it but won't say it. Be the one to stomp on her self esteem till it goes away.

I had to do this for 4 years in college. My saving grace was that I was both good at writing and an excellent public speaker. I would usually offer the girls to do the presentation at first, then watch them fvck it up. Then, of course, the "dominant white male" would have to save the day. Leaving me in the true position of power.

The whole supplication to females thing happened to me once when I was a freshmen. There was one super hot girl in our group who didn't do anything and when it came time for the presentation, she was absent and I had to do it for her! That was the last time I let any female attempt to control anything-- from that day forward I took control of what happened in school. If a hot high self-esteem girl wanted to join our group I would actually say: "no, sorry, this group is for people who work" I can't count the number of times I have seen some girls face visibly turn red in front of me.

 

[MoveYourAss...]

The AFC's simply let you shine out so much more in contrast.

It's no reason to be frustrated, only an excuse.

 

[Tazman]

Actually, on the contrary, I think AFCs have made it "easier". Women's egos aren't boosted by AFC orbiters, because they are just that, "orbiters". Just like it doesn't boost my ego to know that there are many women attracted to me that I myself am not attracted to. You know that feeling you get when you find out a particular chick likes you and you don't share the same feelings?

It makes you want to separate yourself from them, but it depends. If you could see yourself f-cking them you might keep them around as FBs or something else you find "useful". Orbiters are nothing more than tools who are rated based on their utility/usefulness. No one throws away something they deem as valuable, which may change over time, but the principle itself never changes. It's all in relation to your perceived options. The less options you feel you have the more you will "settle" for what's in front of you.

 

[DevanE]

...

Originally posted by :- Young Juan

I remember those days. Those type of folks are usually intellectually repressed and consistently butt-hurt victims of the swift, FUNNY, witty comeback (mainly for the female, ) and the "take comment of out context to make dude appear gay" and state "no homo." e.g You're gonna beat my azz? I'm not into anal, no homo. If he tries to one up you and say your the one with homo thoughts in your head. Go old school and say, "takes one to know one."

If dude isn't really funny, you're sh!t will seem way more funnier and put him in his place as the quickest wit always has the last word when slow wits become embarrassed, stumped, and frustrated. E Z Money

Alright! so you understand where I'm coming from. He isn't funny BTW...he THINK's he's funny when the girl laughs at his "jokes". The thing is that I've already destroyed this guy verbally to the point where he looks like a complete as* anytime he says ANYTHING...I don't even waste my breath anymore so I let him say what he wants and just smile. Even the professor clowns on his as*s. :crazy:

Originally posted by:- reset

So in other words, you're afraid if you don't act like a chump the girls will not like you.

I'm pretty sure the idea is to make them want to be accepted by YOU.

WHOA!!!! hold on let me clarify something and I don't know WHERE you got that from my post but I am NOT afraid of ANYTHING nor ANYONE in addition, I DON'T act like a chump for these girls approval in ANY sense because that is NOT me. I don't "act" anyway for no one I am ME and ONLY me. A true positive masculine male. I don't need to be accepted by ANYONE nor do I give a fuk about anyone's approval/validation. What I posted was a viewpoint of HOW I will be accepted by a group meaning IF again IF I act like a bit**/AFC/chump and cater to the girls then and only then will I be accepted. I DON'T do that because I don't NEED to do that. Do you understand....? My apologies if I wasn't clear with what I was trying to convey so hopefully this provides a better perspective.

Originally posted by:- Duffdog

Are you a business student? This used to be the standard mode of operation when I would join a group. Yes, you are right, the girls always try to run the show-- the best thing you can do is be the natural leader that I think you are. Don't be afraid to say "that's the stupidest fvcking idea I have ever heard" in the group, because most likely all the other males are thinking it but won't say it. Be the one to stomp on her self esteem till it goes away.

I had to do this for 4 years in college. My saving grace was that I was both good at writing and an excellent public speaker. I would usually offer the girls to do the presentation at first, then watch them fvck it up. Then, of course, the "dominant white male" would have to save the day. Leaving me in the true position of power.

The whole supplication to females thing happened to me once when I was a freshmen. There was one super hot girl in our group who didn't do anything and when it came time for the presentation, she was absent and I had to do it for her! That was the last time I let any female attempt to control anything-- from that day forward I took control of what happened in school. If a hot high self-esteem girl wanted to join our group I would actually say: "no, sorry, this group is for people who work" I can't count the number of times I have seen some girls face visibly turn red in front of me.

Duffdog, I'm a Science major...sad how it's happening everywhere huh...? BTW I would like to point out AGAIN that I DON'T supplicate I DON'T act like a chump and matter of fact I DO speak up and question people's ideas especially their beliefs which girls also seem to hate because they know EVERYTHING. I don't even DO group things anymore because I'm tired of that crap since it's this constant battle of ego and power that I have no time for so I usually end up doing my own thing. If anyone wants to join me I'm cool if not they can go to hell...lol

I was merely stating HOW Afc's ARE ruining it for guys like me who actually have a pair of balls and guts enough to stand up for ourselves. The messed up thing is that ANYTIME a girl feels like she can't control you they automatically assume that something is wrong with YOU instead of embracing the fact that you as a man can think on your own and are a rarity among the many idiots they meet in their daily lives. I think a lot of it has to do with people getting hurt and feel that in order to NOT get hurt again they need to be in control of the situation or in control all the time...kind of like a defense mechanism. Bleh...!!!

 

[Interceptor]

I dont think AFCs are ruining it all for men who are self driven, ambitious, dont take sh*t from anyone, know what they want, are secure, self assured, and arent bothered by low class behavior..they just dont partake in it and dont expose themselves to it if they can.

And for the notion that some woman will choose another man over us...
well, this may be actually good, IF you are a secure man, with self respect, who doesnt sacrifice his self respect and DIGNITY for anyone.
I think it is very important to really LOOK at the character of any woman who chooses another man over us.
That is, only IF we can trust our own judgement and KNOW truly in our hearts how good men we are, and that we truly do make excellent partners.
However, if we are not, as in we are not in touch with our masculine instincts, perhaps a little too negative, pessimistic, entitlement mentality, being a whiner, etc...
then, maybe we should take a look at our behavior and see what it is that we're doing that would drive a woman away from us...

Introspection, and being brutally honest with ourselves, and actually making changes to maturity, growth, self empowerment, and high character are no small matter, and no joke either.
I dont see how any man can , in this day and age, truly think he can get away for long without making marked improvements to himself and strive to be a better man, and have a better life.

Bascially, if you truly know your worth, your gifts, and your talents, and the kind of high character you demonstrate, then whatever woman walks away from you is a woman you should never be with
When you start complaining about a woman that walked away from you, then you need to be really honest with yourself and realize it's her validation you are wanting. That is dangerous territory. If you're a grown man, and you're still looking for female validation, you have a problem.

Simply put , if you have high self esteem, you will NOT worry about nor even be concerned with any woman who doesnt choose you.
Something to really think about....

 

[reset]

WHOA!!!! hold on let me clarify something and I don't know WHERE you got that from my post....

Sheesh! Relax man. I wasn't suggesting anything about your character. You being a little too defensive. You don't have to prove anything to ME... whatever I set off in you, get that worked on. I'm just a guy online. I shouldn't be able to ruffle your feathers like that.

Anyway, the way you wrote your sentence was a red flag to me so I pointed it out.

You said you had to accept their BS or not be accepted. This sounded like you did not like this, and probably didn't do this, and were frustrated that you thought you'd have to go against who you really "are" to get these chicks to dig you.

My point is you're under a false assumption. You DON'T have to accept their BS to accept you. In fact, not accepting their BS is exactly what's going to set you apart from the pack.