Anyone pull off LTR without marriage??

[Tenacity]

Live Free,

Same question to you that I proposed to Colossus, can a man and a woman have a loving-fulfilling relationship outside of a marriage contract? Or MUST a marriage contract be involved?

Secondly, you say opting out of marriage and creating children is destroying society? Fair enough, however, society is already being destroyed, just go through all of the various economic indicators. By 2050 the US won't be the world's Superpower, this country will most likely be damn near socialist. In a number of ways, opting out of creating children most likely is saving them from torture down the line through a fvcked up US economy and country.

Thirdly, you want me to grab a foreign woman and bring her BACK to America? How then would she not eventually become poisoned by the same shyt that poisoned American women? Every feminist in America isn't a natural born one.....

 

[LiveFreeX]

There isn't really any evidence that she becomes poisoned by other women... you might be the very thing that poisons her. I know a lot of old school immigrant families here who still abide by their own rules and follow the values set out for them in the old country. If you take Married Burried's relationship as an example, he forgets to mention that he was doing drugs and has a bad drinking problem which was probably the ACTUAL cause of the relationship breakup.

Secondly, you say opting out of marriage and creating children is destroying society? Fair enough, however, society is already being destroyed, just go through all of the various economic indicators. By 2050 the US won't be the world's Superpower, this country will most likely be damn near socialist. In a number of ways, opting out of creating children most likely is saving them from torture down the line through a fvcked up US economy and country.

The USA is broken... by 2020 the US won't be the world's superpower. Does that mean YOU as an individual are going to go down with the ship? Nobody is locked into staying. When other countries break down, smart people get up and leave. Start working on an escape plan. There are PLENTY of countries that could use a smart American like yourself. You should always have a PLAN B.

If someone yells "The sky is falling" the next logical step is to get out of the way. If its the end of the world, you can either end right along with everyone else or build a spaceship and go out and look for another... I think that's the plot line of the new movie: Interstellar.

BUT BUT BUT LIVE FREE, not everyone can do that cause XYZ!!! XYZ XYZ XYZ!!!!!

Then everyone who can't can go down with the ship, just make sure you are the one with a life jacket.

 

[pumpkin-head]

I totally disagree. Let's call a spade a spade here, the only reason marriage was popular back in the day was due to three main reasons:

- The patriarchal society that we lived in
- There not being massive inflation
- Little to no advanced technology

People married back then because they HAD TO based on how society was structured. The patriarchal society meant that women couldn't legally do hardly anything other than assist the man with personal duties within the household. In some ways, the woman was apart of his "property". Seeing as though there wasn't massive inflation at that time, ONE PERSON could be the breadwinner for their family. So the man could work while the woman remained at home.

Speaking of being at home, there wasn't all of the advanced technology back then that we have today. Women had to cook from scratch, do REAL cleaning on their hands and knees as there wasn't much of any advanced home appliances/cleaning technology. So women had REAL duties to do in the house that needed to be done and actually took time, energy and effort to get done. The men would come home looking for a meal, and it wasn't as easy to just cook something up in 30 minutes like it is today, it most likely took hours to prepare a meal back then.

So the house was actually something that needed to be managed, THUS, the women managed the house while the man bought in the bacon.

On top of this, women were extremely loyal to men despite whatever flaws the men had, because her DIRECT survival depended on his labor and protection. So there were no "attitudes," "nagging," "shyt tests," and all this bullshyt we have today.

Today, however, all of this has changed.

- We live in a center-left society that embraces a matriarchal framework

- There's been massive inflation

- There's been serious advancements in technology

Society today has kept the best of patriarchy while trying to mix it with a promotion of a matriarchal framework. It still promotes men to work hard, die for their country, die for their women, die for their children, cater to their woman, provide for/protect their woman....all the WHILE not being able to LEAD their woman.

The women can make just as much or more money than a man can, there's been massive inflation so to support a family of four you NEED two adults working unless one adult is bringing in $100,000 solo which unless you are in the top 5% of income earners, you can forget about it.

Then there's been serious advancements in technology where "staying home" isn't required because it takes 30 minutes to cook a meal and 30-60 minutes to clean the ENTIRE house with all of the tools, machines, etc. that we have today.

There's no reason, other than religious programming, for a person to get married today. Neither partner truly NEEDS the other, as they did back in the day. This is why marriages end over stupid things, like "financial arguments," "he or she cheated on me," "I want more out of life," "We don't bond anymore," etc., etc. While all of these are legit issues within a relationship, NOBODY was getting divorced back in the day over these childish issues because there was more to LOSE. Your survival depended on the other person....today, marriage is nothing but a LTR with a more painful and expensive breakup period.

At the end of the day, marriage today is nothing but Entertainment and not genetic survival like it used to be. That's why nobody takes the shyt serious.

The majority of people in any culture will want to get married raising a family to continue the tradition of a new generation to follow the next. It will be that way until the end of time. The idea of raising bastard children or living unmarried doesn't set well in conservative regions in the world. A select group will choose to remain unmarried for the reason of their own choice. The vast amount folks will want to get married at some point in their life. Some men are afraid to get married using excuses to dodge the real issue at hand. Your points are well taken, marriage will always be the top priority of the vast amount of people until the end of time. It will never change no matter how different the world becomes in future years.

 

[Tenacity]

LiveFreeX

There isn't really any evidence that she becomes poisoned by other women... you might be the very thing that poisons her. I know a lot of old school immigrant families here who still abide by their own rules and follow the values set out for them in the old country. If you take Married Burried's relationship as an example, he forgets to mention that he was doing drugs and has a bad drinking problem which was probably the ACTUAL cause of the relationship breakup.

I'm not saying that relationships don't go bad, actually that's what I've BEEN saying this entire time. Human nature is one that isn't as consistent as we would like, as our desires, wants, needs, and circumstances change, all of these things affect our resulting personality, mood swings, and ambitions in life at the PRESENT moment.

I might not have had a drinking problem at the start of the relationship, but maybe losing my job through downsizing and not being able to MATCH the level of income I was bringing in before (despite my "degrees and experience") is causing major depression. That depression is affecting my personality and making me into an angry, bitter, moody, person.

Maybe she didn't have a mental disorder at the start of the relationship, but maybe her mother dies in a plane crash and she never gets over the trauma of it, and just goes batshyt crazy going forward.

In terms of hard evidence of foreign women becoming poisoned by the American society, again, you can't have HARD DATA on everything. On some things you have to utilize deductive reasonsing and common sense to draw conclusions. You and Colossus require more HARD DATA from me during these discussions, than Prosecutors require to be present during a rape accusation. Go figure.

The USA is broken... by 2020 the US won't be the world's superpower. Does that mean YOU as an individual are going to go down with the ship? Nobody is locked into staying. When other countries break down, smart people get up and leave. Start working on an escape plan. There are PLENTY of countries that could use a smart American like yourself. You should always have a PLAN B.

If someone yells "The sky is falling" the next logical step is to get out of the way. If its the end of the world, you can either end right along with everyone else or build a spaceship and go out and look for another... I think that's the plot line of the new movie: Interstellar.

If the US fails, then capitalism fails. The system of the US has been the ONLY free market based system on a large scale that has worked this well for such a long period of time. Please tell me what other countries should I be looking to run to if the US goes down, with the same level of quality of life in certain circumstances? Canada? If the US goes down, Canada won't be that far from it. Seeing as though we are in a GLOBAL connected economy now, if the US is on the decline that will affect other major countries whether they like it or not....especially since they hold a lot of our DEBT.

Also seeing as though, as you agree, the US is most likely on a decline, wouldn't it be EASIER for just Tenacity to take his liquid assets (I'm not investing in real estate) and RUN to another exotic country or island somewhere? Versus having to do this with a freaking screaming, nagging, bytching WOMAN behind me along with a bunch of entitled kids who are blaming the world's problems on ME?

 

[zekko]

Your points are well taken, marriage will always be the top priority of the vast amount of people until the end of time. It will never change no matter how different the world becomes in future years.

We've already seen that marriage as a priority has taken a severe decline in recent decades. Right now, my guess is that this decline will continue before it gets better.

Also, remember the stats that state only about 40% of men have reproduced. For the remaining 60%, was marriage the top priority for all of them? I'm sure a lot of them had more pressing concerns, like survival. Maybe marriage was a priority for some of them, but they were cut out of the loop anyway - maybe through wars, rejection, or an early death.

 

[LiveFreeX]

Versus having to do this with a freaking screaming, nagging, bytching WOMAN behind me along with a bunch of entitled kids who are blaming the world's problems on ME

Take some responsibility for your life. Give that nagging b1tch a slap and tell those kids to go out and get jobs or stfu. You can't always throw your hands up in the air dude... eventually you are going to have to put your foot down and take the lead. If you married a b1tch and have screaming brats, that's cause you failed to establish proper boundaries and rules in your household, you also failed to select the proper mate. My wife and I run a tight fckin ship. Kids don't back talk us but once and they are running laps till they puke. I don't have repeat offenders in my classroom. Wife doesn't act up, she knows her place. If you move to another country, the easiest way to integrate is to pick a local woman. China will be around long after the US has tanked.

It's high time men stop making excuses for women and themselves and take control of their lives.

 

[Zarky]

Give or take, for the discussion of Common Law Marriage to come up, you have to have lived together for a certain period of time which isn't defined, and you have to "put out to society" that you are married in some capacity. That DOES NOT have to include filing joint tax returns, hell, you could just get on Facebook and list your status as "married," walk around with rings on, etc. It's really UP for interpretation at that point by the Judge.

While technically that's true, the court will look at the totality of evidence to determine whether or not a couple intended to be married, it's getting harder and harder to prove that a spouse intended to marry when no marriage took place in pretty much all states.

It's so rare for a court to "trap" a guy into marriage when he didn't want to be that it's pretty much a non-issue. Now, child support payments are an entirely different situation...

In co-habitating with a woman, being forced into a "common law marriage" should be the last thing on a guy's mind.

Far more troubling, at least in California, is the law which states that if you assault anybody you've ever lived with in a romantic relationship, it's considered domestic violence.

So, for example, you move in with your girlfriend for 3 months, then you split up and move out. If you get into a scuffle with her at any point in the future, even 20 years down the line... you're looking at a possible domestic violence charge which in CA can be quite serious.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

Real world divorce (mine):

30 year marriage, me 55, her 52. She sued for divorce, she committed adultery, she physically assaulted me.

Divorce took 3 years because she intentionally drug it out, made false allegations against me that I had to defend myself from (all the while, my attorney is racking up billable hours).

Wound up in court in front of a judge for 1 1/2 days. Judges decision:

I got all marital debt , approximately $200,000
5 years durational alimony at 1,000 a month.
Combined total of temporary alimony I paid during 3 years prior to divorce plus 5 years durational alimony: approximately $100,000 dollars.
Cost for my attorney: $60,000

And: I WON. It could have been much worse. I could have gotten PERMANENT alimony...

She drives a brand new Nissan Altima
I drive a 1999 Toyota Camry with 280,000 miles and a rebuilt engine
She and her boyfriend live in a 3 bedroom house that my $1000 a month pays for.
I live in a 600 sq foot , 1 bedroom apt.
By the time I get everything paid off, I'll be approximately 63 years old.

So: marriage: sign right up boys! Any takers?

-Augustus-

 

[Tenacity]

Augustus_McCrae,

Yep, that's what happens. And I bet in 1984 when you guys got married, I BET you thought she was the one right? I BET she said she would never leave you or forsake you right?

Now 30 years later, you get screwed. Damn near $400,000 lost on that divorce. Your lifestyle is gone, while hers is pretty much SET and yeah.....she has some thug living with her that you (her Simp) are taking care of with your monthly checks.

Stories like these are abound, and guys STILL fvcking get married. I mean they see guys getting screwed left and right, and they will sit up here and not just defend Marriage...but SHAME you for not signing up for it.

I mean you have to be fvcking stupid to sign up for this shyt, but you know what? Women know that men are stupid. After all, men GAVE women the liberty to organize feminism, take over the Courts with new laws, take over the media, and push feminist agendas all throughout the education, corporate and political system. The women didn't fight any wars and TAKE power, it was given to them by men. The very same men, that are being FVCKED over by those very same women. I seriously don't get this shyt.....

 

[zekko]

30 year marriage, me 55, her 52. She sued for divorce, she committed adultery, she physically assaulted me.

<snip>

She drives a brand new Nissan Altima
I drive a 1999 Toyota Camry with 280,000 miles and a rebuilt engine
She and her boyfriend live in a 3 bedroom house that my $1000 a month pays for.
I live in a 600 sq foot , 1 bedroom apt.
By the time I get everything paid off, I'll be approximately 63 years old.

This is the kind of thing I've seen repeatedly from divorced men - the women gets to live high on the hog while they are left basically living in squalor. It's not supposed to happen that way, but I've known guys who could barely afford to pay for a one room apartment.

Thing is, we're talking 30 years here. 30 years! That is a ton of a long time. Guys here talk about relationships, but they don't realize sometimes how long that relationship can last. I've certainly never had a relationship last that long. But over the course of 30 years, you can count on one thing: People change. And they WILL change. And they will start to want other things. So it's no surprise this woman in her late 40s cheated, even though according to PUA theory she was way, way past the wall.

Some people would think that by the time you get to 30 years, they would be in for life. But divorce can happen at any time, I've heard of couples divorcing who were married for 50 years. You can screen as hard as you want, but you can't account for what someone is going to be like 30 years from now.

 

[Kailex]

Here is my problem:

I would love to engage in an LTR without marriage, but the possibility of participating in one is slim. The one thing I noticed here in the US is that the bait-and-switch is alive and well. I was with a woman (not from the US) who wanted to eff my brains out every week. I was in other relationships just like that too, albeit much shorter.


I came here and the story is completely different. Most of the time, it doesn't matter if I have a "baller status". By month 6 they are pushing to get comfortable... I mean, LTR. By year 2, they are pushing to be even more comfortable... I mean, marriage or just even moving in.

I don't want to get married.
I don't want kids.

So what does that leave with me?

Most will push hard, but a lot will just disengage with me and seek to connect with someone else. Men are so available and at the ready, that it doesn't matter. My value is "diminished" essentially, because they could find someone else willing to give them what they want, even if I am the "better" choice.

So I get to engage in STRs endlessly. Each relationship has a countdown timer for me and it's a terrible way to live sometimes, because I know it's coming. It doesn't matter how adamant I am about it, they have their own timer as well and their timer is counting down to the minute they can fix me or decide I won't be fixed. I read countless stories of men whose sex lives dipped considerably after moving in or after getting married. I am witness to one of those types of dead bedrooms. Why would I want that again?

I can come and go as I please. If I don't feel like spending a night over, I don't have to... I can just go hit up a bar. If she doesn't feel like having sex, I can leave and go find someone else to hit up.

Why would I ever give up the leverage I have now? For what? So I can live 3 more years with a woman who spends her time on social media, watching reality TV, or having emotional affairs over the internet?

I'd rather live less of a life that has much more quality if it means getting to do what I want. This weekend, I can actually travel all over the Eastern seaboard if I wanted to. You can't do that when there are finances to consider, a relationship to consider, etc, etc, etc... and that's without even counting kids. So why would I give up what is an ideal situation for me with very little risk, for a situation that throws ALL of the risk upon my shoulders?

That's emotional and financial suicide.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

I posted the reality of my divorce so hopefully some of the guys here get an understanding of the tremendous gamble you are taking when you get married in this country.

No fault divorce literally gives women the right steal.

Don't think it can't happen to you. It can and does happen to men every single day. It's impossible to truly relate the gut wrenching feeling I experienced when I realized that a judge could rule that I was legally required to pay my ex money every month for THE REST OF MY LIFE.

I'm convinced that there were 2 reasons I got 5 years durational instead of 15 years to life (yes, read that like a prison sentence because that's what it feels like). I had an excellent lawyer that I paid dearly for (I send him a check every month for $500 dollars and I will be sending him that much every month for years). I lucked out and got a fair female judge who saw through all of my ex's lies and BS and delivered an incredibly fair decision given the alimony laws in the state. It's almost unheard of to get only 5 years alimony from a 30 year marriage.

And no, my ex bears almost no resemblance to the sweet pretty young girl I met who had just turned 18. Pretty face replaced with a bitter haggard scowl. At least 70 more pounds packed on the once athletic toned body she had when we met. A once positive uplifting personality replaced by constant negativity, worry, and stress.

So, again, who wants to roll the marriage dice and take the bet that they will be one of the fortunate men who A: Is actually happen in a long term marriage, and B: does not wind up being divorce raped.

-Augustus-

 

[pumpkin-head]

Most women want to get married and have kids, I don't see anything wrong with that when you choose the right woman.

 

[Tenacity]

pumpkin-head

Most women want to get married and have kids, I don't see anything wrong with that when you choose the right woman.

There's no "right woman".

The "right woman," "the one," and "the soulmate" are fictional characters, marketing ploys designed to bring revenue to particular industries. Marriage and Divorce are to Judges, Attorneys, Churches and Hallmark.....like Santa Claus/Christmas and the Easter Bunny/Easter are to Retail Stores.

 

[Knight's Cross]

LiveFreeX,
You make some valid points regarding continuity of the species. If everyone opts out that's not a good thing. I can also agree that too often, myself included folks on here rant about the feminist brainwashed society we live in.
I guess the kicker for me is what then do we do? Sure I can be as Alpha as I want, however if the society at large is a pile of garbage, I'm still tied to it. I can go to some other country and find a woman, she may even be old school, if I bring her here she's likely to be infected by the western mindset.
I also agree with you that it's a roll of the dice. If I go down the monogamy path, there's just inherent risk. The best course I see is to do a LTR without marriage. To put up as many levels of "protect my assets" as possible. To always be ready to walk away. Sure I can care about someone else, have a family, etc. However if that person turns into something less than they started out, (thru action on their part). Then I have to have the stones to walk away.
It's almost that analogy I've heard before about choosing a woman for a LTR. Ask yourself ," Is she someone you'd go into business with"?

KC

 

[Kailex]

Most women want to get married and have kids, I don't see anything wrong with that when you choose the right woman.

Yep, you're absolutely right about the first half...

They want to "get" married. They don't want to "be" married.
They definitely want to have kids and then they want the child support and their husband's testicles along with the check.

 

[tripod23]

had a 12 yr ltr without marriage......didn't even live together but saw her all the time......she wanted commitment......and I was commited but I didn't want to get married as I knew what the outcome could possibly do to me......so i always resisted......she wanted to buy a place together.....but again I resisted.....mainly because I felt is was a sure way of her gaining control..........maybe wrong to think this way but I know loads of guys whos exes have their balls in the palm of their hands......and are paying dearly for being trusting.......I guy I spoke to recently told me he went home after work one day only to be told by his good lady she wanted him out of the house..........and he invested over £30k into the place.......this was after being with her for 9 yrs..........he still hasn't got his money back......now she is shacked up with another sucker............most women nowadays want to get married so they don't feel left out from their girlfriends who are married.........its human nature I suppose........I wouldn't imagine I could pull off a 12 yr LTR again without some sort of ring on her finger............trust is the biggest thing.....and good communication ......

 

[LiveFreeX]

Its too bad you guys aren't more marriage minded, I have in my possession (friendzone) an Asian, virgin girl, who is horny as hell for the right guy. I can see how you've all been burnt by American women but to assume they represent all women, its quite a shame.

My friend is an Architect, never married, never had a boyfriend and fairly well off. She's also in good shape, unfortunately she is 34 which is 9 years past the Chinese expiration date and has no hope of ever meeting a guy. In Guangzhou, the ratio is 9 to 1, women to men. 0 debt and will have a dowry of a few apartments and all the wealth in her parents bank account. Any guy who marries will automatically gain the right to stay in China (on a marriage visa), quite the valuable thing considering they are the next super power.

Unfortunately for the forum, in China, women are much more marriage minded and are looking at you as a potential mate from day 1. As opposed to the US, where you have to run a dog and pony show [game] just to keep her around for a second date.

PM for her contact if interested. She is looking for either Caucasian or Latino.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear All,
Yes marriage is a desirable shelter,a nest in which to raise Children...No other value...Last week on three consecutive Days I banged three different Women,one was only thirty nine...I have Svex six Days a Week...as I get Older it gets easier...I look at my friends and old colleagues who are married,I feel so sorry for them...most at my aqe have forgotten what Svex is about...When I go dancing with a lovely Woman I see some of them eye me enviously,they yearn to break out but can't!

 

[zekko]

Most women want to get married and have kids, I don't see anything wrong with that when you choose the right woman.

Some families stay together, but there's no way going into it that you can know for sure that you have the right woman. When I got married, I was CERTAIN that I had the right girl. I had screened well, I had waited until my 30s to get married, there was no divorce in her family, we shared the same values (or so it seemed). I liked my odds of succeeding. Five years later she flipped out or something, and started acting bizarre.

Look at Augustus' case. Can you look 30 years into the future and know what that woman will be like, what she will want out of life then? It's impossible. Any way you look at it, marriage is a roll of the dice.