Any night owls here?

[FlexpertHamilton]

I've been reading up on delayed sleep phase disorder and chronotypes and this is more prevelant than I realized. And from an evolutionary perspective, this makes perfect sense. Tribes that had variations in sleep-wake preferences had a huge advantage - having a rotation of people who were awake would make the tribe less vulnerable to predation and more productive (foraging, hunting, cleaning, maintaining shelters, etc).

I've been aware that I had this most of my life but people minimize it and say you're just "lazy", or simply assert that waking up early is superior: "waking up early is beneficial for me, therefore it must be beneficial for everyone". The claims around waking up early make no sense - #1 you still have the same number of hours in a day regardless of when you wake up or go to sleep and #2) in a modern day global economy, the "early bird gets the worm" notion is irrelevant in pretty much every industry.

I've always tried to get myself to comform to early wake times and it's a never ending struggle that my body never adapts to, or worse, maladapts. As of late I've let myself sleep on my own preferred schedule and my sleep has been fantastic. I consistently fall asleep quickly and wake up quickly at the same time every day (2am - 10:30am), don't feel groggy in the morning, more clarity, more energy. If anyone else resonates with this, it would be worth quitting your job and finding something that is more in line with your natural circadian rhythms. Don't listen to the morning larks who tell you otherwise, listen to your body and do what feels best.

Also, from what I know, men are much likely to be night owls than women, because men have considerably more variability than women in general, who are basically all NPCs. This has always made sleepovers hard, but I'm officially done with them now.

 

[DROPTOP_GTA]

Graveyard shifts have an association with reduced life expectancy. If feeling like a vampire works for you, go for it.
i prefer to rise with the sun, morning birds, morning wood etc.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Graveyard shifts have an association with reduced life expectancy. If feeling like a vampire works for you, go for it.
i prefer to rise with the sun, morning birds, morning wood etc.

I never said to work graveyard shifts. I prefer working 11 to 8. I don't think a 2-4 hour difference from the average qualifies as a "vampire". You still couldn't help yourself from shaming and espousing why you're better could you?

Also there are a myriad of reasons why graveyard shifts may be associated with increased mortality.

 

[DROPTOP_GTA]

I never said to work graveyard shifts. I prefer working 11 to 8. I don't think a 2-4 hour difference from the average qualifies as a "vampire". You still couldn't help yourself from shaming and espousing why you're better could you?

infer your own inferiority buddy.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

infer your own inferiority buddy.

You just said that working overnight can kill you and/or makes you a vampire, then went on to say you wake up with nature like a normal person should. Not much to infer there, that was obviously a disparaging remark.

 

[Ricky]

I might be one if my job allowed for it.

Some of what you wrote reminds me of the book When by Daniel Pink

 

[Deranged]

I like this post Flexpert. I too am a night owl by nature. In the past, I thought I was doing the right thing by conforming. I was forced to conform for my paycheque before I became self-employed. Even now people guilt me when they find out I'm not in the office until 9:30am(I see it as crab bucket theory now). How could I be successful if I don't do what successful people do, right? Have to be up at 4:30am before anyone else because Jocko and Rock said so, and they are objectively successful, right? Well it turns out, as with many aspects of life, if I listen to my body and stop trying to force myself into this "box that works for everyone" I thrive. It's almost like what I need to do is build in! I just needed to stop ignoring it and listen.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

I rarely go to sleep before 01.00 and mostly get up around 07.00, but I don't have much problems with sleep deprivation.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

I like this post Flexpert. I too am a night owl by nature. In the past, I thought I was doing the right thing by conforming. I was forced to conform for my paycheque before I became self-employed. Even now people guilt me when they find out I'm not in the office until 9:30am(I see it as crab bucket theory now). How could I be successful if I don't do what successful people do, right? Have to be up at 4:30am before anyone else because Jocko and Rock said so, and they are objectively successful, right? Well it turns out, as with many aspects of life, if I listen to my body and stop trying to force myself into this "box that works for everyone" I thrive. It's almost like what I need to do is build in! I just needed to stop ignoring it and listen.

For anyone who claims that waking up ludicrously early is better, I know a perfect response.

"I'm better than you, I wake up at 4:30am and you should too"
"Why stop there? Why not wake up at 2am? I even know someone who wakes up at 11pm! He's already being productive before the next day even starts!!!"

Watch their head spin. If you amplify their own logic back at them you realize how absurd this is.

 

[Redwood]

Yep. I work nights.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

You just said that working overnight can kill you and/or makes you a vampire, then went on to say you wake up with nature like a normal person should. Not much to infer there, that was obviously a disparaging remark.

Location: Toronto

 

[Deranged]

For anyone who claims that waking up ludicrously early is better, I know a perfect response.

"I'm better than you, I wake up at 4:30am and you should too"
"Why stop there? Why not wake up at 2am? I even know someone who wakes up at 11pm! He's already being productive before the next day even starts!!!"

Watch their head spin. If you amplify their own logic back at them you realize how absurd this is.

Yes, If a gave enough fks about what they thought, that is a great way to amplify.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Used to be...my whole life honestly...never have really needed a ton of sleep and could function at a really high level even when tired and going on 3-4 hours of sleep for weeks.

Have gone out and partied at night multiple times in my younger years and not slept then went to work the next day and worked 10+ hours in a high paced restaurant environment. Never any drugs involved either...or caffeine. Been a long long time since I done that tho.

Lately have been prioritizing sleep and going to bed by 10:30-11pm most nights and waking up early and my body feels so much better.

IMO, if you are gaining weight or having issues losing weight, fixing your sleep is one of the first things you need to do. It's disastrous for the body from a stress and hormonal perspective and produces all the wrong hormones that cause you to overeat and also become insulin resistant.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Its funny when people want to something they always add the line of our ancestors. If you wanna have the full experience, go to the caves, sleep in one under rocks, get only clothes around your waist, get spears to hunt, don't brush your teeth, wash yourself in the river, eat raw meat sometimes. We don't live in the caves anymore, people adapt.

Melatonin gets released in the body whenever the sun starts to lower, and that's and "evolutionary" signal that you need to start getting rest, its commonly known that sleeping way late night has consequences like aging faster, muscles not recovering fully, metabolism getting slow, fat increase, lower testosterone.

There is not better sleeping schedule than at 8pm-4am and 9pm - 5am waking up fresh to make some serous gainz in the gym.

I am not saying we should do this because our ancestors did. Missing my point. My point was, from an evolutionary lens it makes sense why we have these genetic propensities for sleep chronotypes in the first place. None of our evolved traits have gone away, they're still here whether we like them or not. So this is not something modern society can just "do away with", these are inheritable traits.

Melatonin and adenosine levels as well as other circadian functions can be completely shifted for 3+ hours for some people hence the term "delayed sleep phase", it means our biology is doing the same thing as everyone else except on a different schedule.

its commonly known that sleeping way late night has consequences like aging faster, muscles not recovering fully, metabolism getting slow, fat increase, lower testosterone.

I would need to see that data I'm not convinced. Could be a correlative thing like red meat being associated with cancer when in fact it's mostly explained by red meat eaters being less likely to care about their health in general, for instance being more likely to smoke cigarretes.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Its funny when people want to something they always add the line of our ancestors. If you wanna have the full experience, go to the caves, sleep in one under rocks, get only clothes around your waist, get spears to hunt, don't brush your teeth, wash yourself in the river, eat raw meat sometimes. We don't live in the caves anymore, people adapt.

Melatonin gets released in the body whenever the sun starts to lower, and that's and "evolutionary" signal that you need to start getting rest, its commonly known that sleeping way late night has consequences like aging faster, muscles not recovering fully, metabolism getting slow, fat increase, lower testosterone.

There is not better sleeping schedule than at 8pm-4am and 9pm - 5am waking up fresh to make some serous gainz in the gym.

Ya but as the OP indicated those night-watchers genes are still in the pool, we didn't just die out after the caveman times.

Massive invalidation going on for having saved the species from predators. These earlybirds are like ungrateful kids. We saved the species, and now we get our sleep messed with as thanks lol

FFS, how is the ambulance driver going to save anyone's ass at 3am if he has to get up at 5am?

If that melatonin release time didn't genetically waver, none of us would be here today.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Not trying to convince you, my exp I tried both, never felt better until I started to go to bed early from around 8,9-4,5.

Yeah and that's fine, everyone has their own preference. I've tried on numerous occassions to force myself to wake up early for months and I never adjusted and was chronically sleep deprived and had numerous health issues. I can go back to my preferred schedule in one day and I feel fantastic for the entire duration that I stick on it. So it seriously bothers me when people try to basically gaslight me into thinking that I'm doing something wrong and I'm just lazy, and I'm sure many others relate.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Maybe your hormones are out of wack, have you checked them? I was somewhat like you, until I started trt, then everything changed for the better.

I've had them checked a few times this year and last year. Total test has stayed around 1200/dL. Free and bioavailable T were average. Only things that were off was SHBG, prolactin, sometimes albumin. Thyroid levels were good too as was everything else. I'm still not convinced my hormones are optimal though despite what they told me, so I'd be curious if TRT changed anything.

 

[DarwinTaurus]

I've suffered from insomnia for most of my adult life, which is more than likely self-inflicted, due to the life-choice of working shift-work.

I work 12 hour shifts (each shift is 7:30 to 7:30): 2 days, 2 nights, then for days off.

I've tried everything over the years: Restavit, Phenergan, Melatonin, Valerian Root, etc.

The big difference I've made to my lifestyle recently, is quitting caffeine. As of today, it has been 28 days. And I used to love it. Went through a vicious cycle of energy drinks, etc. No more coffee, coke, ice-coffee, etc. Sleep has gradually been getting better. Next step is to quit alcohol.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

I've suffered from insomnia for most of my adult life, which is more than likely self-inflicted, due to the life-choice of working shift-work.

I work 12 hour shifts (each shift is 7:30 to 7:30): 2 days, 2 nights, then for days off.

I've tried everything over the years: Restavit, Phenergan, Melatonin, Valerian Root, etc.

The big difference I've made to my lifestyle recently, is quitting caffeine. As of today, it has been 28 days. And I used to love it. Went through a vicious cycle of energy drinks, etc. No more coffee, coke, ice-coffee, etc. Sleep has gradually been getting better. Next step is to quit alcohol.

That's nuts, they should segregate the day and night shifts. It's insane to make people shift back and forth. While you made the choice to take this job, you also have to look at the company offering it. People need to work so they know the job will be taken.

In the U.S. they commonly make nurses do this in hospital settings when they're making life-altering decisions, imo this should be outlawed.

 

[DarwinTaurus]

That's nuts, they should segregate the day and night shifts. It's insane to make people shift back and forth. While you made the choice to take this job, you also have to look at the company offering it. People need to work so they know the job will be taken.

In the U.S. they commonly make nurses do this in hospital settings when they're making life-altering decisions, imo this should be outlawed.

The 4 on, 4 off roster is a lot better than the one I used to work... which was based on 28 days. I love getting 4 days off every 4 days. I take 4 shifts off, and I get 12 days off.

But the real reason, I put myself through it, it is damn good money.