Always Kiss-Close on the First Date

[Harry Wilmington]

Hey fellas:

Welp, it's been a while since I dropped some new knowledge on you guys, so I figured I'd drop a fancy jewel for y'all to read!

Back in my AFC days, I would go on first dates with girls and have a hard time reading her interest level. Sure, she agreed to the date, and sure, she may have touched my arm one or two times, but I needed a better way of gauging their interest to see if they weren't just going out with me for the free food.

In time, I learned that the quickest way to do this was the easiest, yet at the same time hardest, thing to do: give the girl a kiss at the end of the first date.

Initially, I held off from doing this for a few reasons. One, I was still in the "don't-want-girls-to-think-I'm-just-in-this-for-the-sex" phase of my life, and thought waiting til' the 3rd or 4th date to make a move would prove this point. (It didn't.) Two, I had a HUGE fear of rejection, and felt I'd be mortified if I went in for her lips and she turned her cheek or backed away from me. (At best, it just created awkwardness for a couple of seconds). And three, going for the kiss was, for me, as big of a step as it would have been asking her for sex. (Nowadays it's not.)

And so, my "first date kiss" thing back in the day was very sporadic and, more often than not, not happening. I'd take girls out and want to kiss them on that first date, but wait a few dates before trying it... only to have the rejected, and never see them again.

BUT... and here's where the change started to take place...

What I ALSO noticed is that the girls whom I DID try kissing on first dates were, more often than not, likely to (a) kiss me back, and (b) go out with me for a longer period of time (and were also more likely to have sex with me by the 2nd or 3rd date).

This started to get my brain thinking: why is it that the girls I took out 2 or 3 times before trying to kiss them were more likely not to, whereas the girls I tried kissing at the end of (or, sometimes, during) the first date were more likely to keep seeing me? And that's when something clicked in my head:

The reason the girls I kissed on the first date were more likely to keep seeing me... is because they already liked me!

You see, it wasn't necessarily the fact that I waited 2 or 3 dates to kiss these other girls that turned them off. It was the fact that the girls I kissed on the first dates already had a high interest in me, and the kiss was the thing that allowed me to confirm it.

Of course, I had to test this theory, so I did some dating experiments. At this point in my life I'm a pro at online dating, so a couple years ago I got me sum profiles on POF and OKCupid and went to town experimenting. I'd take some girls out and wait to kiss them on the 2nd or 3rd date, while others I'd take out and be kissing by the end of the first date. (Note: Hopefully this isn't making me sound like a male slvt of some kind; this experiment was over the span of a few months, not days or weeks, lol.)

So, what were the results? Well:

*All the girls I kissed on the first date, I ended up having sex with by the 2nd or 3rd date
*The majority of the girls I waited to kiss on the 3rd date ended up giving me the cheek, or kissing me reluctantly
*There were a couple of girls that I took out 2 or 3 times before I kissed them, and we had other dates afterwards... and they also lead to sex

Now, what should you gather from these results? Ultimately, it doesn't technically matter when you kiss a girl. Why? BECAUSE IF SHE LIKES YOU, SHE'S GOING TO BE FEELING THAT WAY ABOUT YOU FROM DAY ONE.

And that should be a relief to you. All these things you've heard girls say that's akin to "Oh, I have to get to know a guy before I kiss him or do anything physical" are LIES. A girl knows from day one if she's ready to jump you or not; therefore, if she goes on a date with you and finds you physically attractive, makes a connection with you and/or likes your company, she's ready to kiss you.

Unfortunately, there ARE some girls who will continue dating you after the first date even if they're not feeling you. They may just like the fact that you're footing the bill for stuff, or being able to tell her girlfriends that some chump is taking you out. Girls are very good at faking like they like a guy just to get free stuff or boost her ego.

BUT...

The one thing she has a very, VERY hard time faking is physical intimacy. And no, I'm not talking about faking an orgasm. I'm talking about being able to fake being excited about kissing a guy she's not into. It's a jerk reaction: if she's not feeling you and you go in for the kiss, her immediate response is to either turn her cheek or move her head back as if to physically say "Hey, what are you doing? I don't like you like that!"

And THAT, my friends, is why you need to always go for the kiss on the first date: to see if it's worth your time continuing to spend money on someone that, deep down, may not have those feelings for you. A girl that genuinely likes you for you will be more than happy when you press your lips against hers; a girl that's just iffy on you or isn't feeling you at all will not kiss you. It's really that simple.

Now, I'm sure someone's gonna read this and say: "But Harry, what about girls who say they're really shy, or who don't really like moving that fast and want to take it slow?" Again, don't believe the lies. A shy girl wants to be kissed just as much as a fast and loose girl... but ONLY IF SHE LIKES THE GUY. I've dated my fair share of shy girls, outgoing girls, girls with attitudes, religious girls, etc. And all of them had one thing in common: when I kissed them on the first date, if they liked me they reciprocated, and if the didn't it didn't matter what numbered date I kissed them on, they were going to reject me. Far better for that rejection to come on the first date so I can stop spending my cash, then getting rejected on the 10th date when I'm out of hundreds of dollars I spent on a girl that didn't really want to ever get physical with me in the first place.

Hope this helps!

- Harry Wilmington

 

[nismo-4]

When a woman likes you, she'll let your game work on her. She'll deem everything you say and do as attractive. Otherwise, Briffault's law will come into play.

Great post Harry!

 

[RickR13]

I'll take it one step further and say go for the kiss mid- first date. From my experience it not only shows you have the balls to do it, it breaks any tension and you end up spending the 2nd half of the first date in a better frame.

 

[Plutoman]

My gut says this should be common sense, but I know it's not and I have failed at my fair portion of it myself in the past.

Now it feels easy. I just go for it, similar to the feeling when you go for an approach, and if it doesn't work, on to the next girl. Good post, and hope people remember this. Many guys are going to screw up first dates by not going for a kiss confidently.

 

[CloudSurfer]

I'll take it one step further and say go for the kiss mid- first date. From my experience it not only shows you have the balls to do it, it breaks any tension and you end up spending the 2nd half of the first date in a better frame.

Yes exactly as the thread title says "always kiss close on
the first date". I also prefer the kiss mid-date or even after half
an hour. Often you can go from the kiss to isolation
and sex.

But kissing, as you state is a very good and proof indicator
if the girl is interested in you, if she gives you the check
or even draws back, this is a good sign to not waste any more
time on this girl.

But as it is noted in "Brads secrect guide ...", I always go for a
second try (within in the first date of course) before I skip it.

 

[RickR13]

Just to clarify, do you consider a first date and the first meet-up one in the same? Ive had girls give me a line that the meet up isn't a date, but that hasn't stopped me from kissing them.

 

[Harry Wilmington]

Just to clarify, do you consider a first date and the first meet-up one in the same? Ive had girls give me a line that the meet up isn't a date, but that hasn't stopped me from kissing them.

Ooooh, good question! I had to take some time to think about my answer for this one... and now that I have, here's what I've come up with:

Ultimately, it breaks down to a few things:

1. How you met them initially
2. How much prep work was done
3. The vibe you feel from them during the date
4. Where the first date takes place

Let's break it down, shall we?

1. HOW YOU MET THEM INITIALLY:

I have found that the girls most likely to kiss me on the first date have been girls I've either (a) met via online dating, or (b) as a result of meeting them through another friend. To point (a), most girls dating online are busy women who often don't have time to find a guy they like in the real world. Then, they go online and get messages from loser after loser, the majority of who are talking about sex stuff. Then, she goes on dates with some of these guys and the guys are either too ****y or too wanting of her approval - i.e. a turn off. BUT, if you play your cards right and she seems to be vibing with you, the chances of a successful kiss happening are sky high.

It's even better when it's through another friend. Assuming, of course, your friend has nothing but nice things to say about you - if so, she already has a positive image of you in her mind, so that first meet up is really just a technicality that has to occur for you to get the kiss.

2. HOW MUCH PREP WORK WAS DONE:

The best way to have a girl feel comfortable enough to kiss you back on that first meet-up is to do prep work. What do I mean? You need to make her feel as though she already has an intimate connection with you, BEFORE you meet up.

Now me, I meet most of the girls I date via online dating and have not only perfected how to make them go on a date with me, but also how to make her feel like she has a connection with me prior to us actually meeting. The secret I've found is to do the following - and, yes, this has worked COUNTLESS amounts of times for me, and it works so well I should be charging for it (and will be soon, lol):

STEP 1: Message her for a bit online (like 2 or 3 messages - it really, REALLY doesn't take a lot).
STEP 2: Ask her out for a day that's a minimum of 4 days out. If you ask her out on Thursday, set it up for a Monday.
STEP 3: Once she's said "Yes" to the date, ask her to play a rousing game of 20 questions. Simple rules: you ask her a question, she answers, then she asks you a question. No repeat questions, each person gets 20 of them. The idea is to finish the game before you meet up for the date.

I'm going to write an actual guide to this later this month, but in a nutshell: you want to ask her questions ranging from the personal (nothing too serious, though), to the random, to the funny, to the sexual. As she answers these questions, she'll be revealing stuff about herself - and, as we all know, girls bond with others when they're telling you things about themselves. As a result, when you go on that first meet up, she already feels she knows you, and is more likely not to reject your kiss advance later because of it.

3. THE VIBE YOU FEEL FROM THEM DURING THE DATE

Okay, so you didn't get much prep work in - there's still a chance to have a successful kiss during that first meet-up. Just make sure the vibe you get from the date is one that's in an "upward" state, not a "downward" state.

What's the difference, you ask?

*UPWARD STATE: Girl is constantly talking to you; possibly initiating kino or saying things indicating she'd like you to touch her (ex.: "wow, it sure is cold out here" = put your arm around me, stupid); she's always attentive; she's not looking at her phone; she gives the occasional compliment; she's already talking future-speak ("oh, we should check that band out sometime"); she doesn't initiate the end of the date

*DOWNWARD STATE: Girl isn't asking you a lot of questions; leaning away from you and/or not touching you or giving you comments indicating she'd like to be touched; looking around a lot while talking/listening to you; checking her phone; not saying anything complimentary; doesn't say anything indicating a desire for a future meet up; indicates she needs to leave soon

If you're getting more signals indicating an "upward" state, the odds are in your favor that she won't mind a kiss from you. If you're getting more "downward" state signals... do the kiss anyway. At the very least you'll be able to confirm her disinterest and move on!

4. WHERE THE FIRST DATE TAKES PLACE

This last part was a more recent "a-ha" discovery for me, but one worth noting. What I have found is that you have better odds of kissing a girl on a first date if you take her to a restaurant as the first meet up place.

Now me, I've been a big advocate of meeting up at coffee shops for first dates. Why? Simple - you want to see if the girl is using you for your money or going out with you to know YOU. If you propose dinner right off the bat, you're not able to test this; however, if you propose a coffee shop and she scoffs at you or starts laughing, DROP HER - she ain't worth it.

With that said, I have now found a way to do the coffee shop test while, at the same time, being able to take her to a restaurant once she's passed said test. Simply find a restaurant you want to go to, then look up a Starbucks or Coffee Bean that's nearest to it. You meet up at the coffee shop, then say "y'know what? I'm kinda hungry, are you? Let's go to so-and-so place."

Anyway... so, the reason dinner works well? Chances are, she's going to order a wine or a ****tail of some kind. It may only be a glass or two, but it's just enough to lower her inhibitions a bit so that you can, at the very least, get a kiss out of the ordeal before the date is over with.

Plus, during dinner, you'll be conversing with each other, thus allowing her to vibe with you and reveal stuff about herself. By the end of the date she'll FEEL like you know her, and that feeling - combined with the aforementioned alcohol - should help you land the kiss.

---

So, to answer the question directly: yes, a first meet-up is a first date - heck, I count any time I go out with a girl as a "date" - but doing the things I mentioned can help her to feel like it's more of a date (which she's more likely to kiss you on) than just a meet-up (which she's more likely to give you a B.S. excuse on).

Hope this helps!

 

[RickR13]

Thanks Harry, great commentary as usual. I'm interested in hearing more about this 20 questions game. My first impressions are how do you initiate it? Isn't 20 questions too many? ( texting kills relationships) Won't this reveal too much about the person, things you would normally talk/find out about on the first date?

 

[Zarky]

Even Doc Love, the most conservative "men's relationship advice" guy, suggests at the very least that men kiss women on the first date.

C'mon guys, that's so 1970 high school. Wow, kiss her on the first date. Yeah, you should be kissing her and f*cking her on the first date.

Is this really advice? That's like somebody coming out and saying "I've got some really good hygiene advice. You should brush your teeth at least once a week."

Uh, yeah, you should be doing a whole lot more than that too.

At this point in my life I'm a pro at online dating, so a couple years ago I got me sum profiles on POF and OKCupid and went to town experimenting. I'd take some girls out and wait to kiss them on the 2nd or 3rd date, while others I'd take out and be kissing by the end of the first date. (Note: Hopefully this isn't making me sound like a male slvt of some kind; this experiment was over the span of a few months, not days or weeks, lol.)

Are you f*cking kidding me? Any online dating "pro" is going to say what I've been saying for the past 10 years: screen heavily for the ones who are DTF and then F them when you go out.

 

[Harry Wilmington]

Even Doc Love, the most conservative "men's relationship advice" guy, suggests at the very least that men kiss women on the first date.

C'mon guys, that's so 1970 high school. Wow, kiss her on the first date. Yeah, you should be kissing her and f*cking her on the first date.

Is this really advice? That's like somebody coming out and saying "I've got some really good hygiene advice. You should brush your teeth at least once a week."

Uh, yeah, you should be doing a whole lot more than that too.

This is true. However, for some of the younger (read: 25 and under) guys on here, despite how many times they may hear it, they still aren't doing it. This article is to give them a push as to WHY it's okay to do it, and the logic behind making the move in the first place.

Are you f*cking kidding me? Any online dating "pro" is going to say what I've been saying for the past 10 years: screen heavily for the ones who are DTF and then F them when you go out.

Again, this is also something guys should do... if they're solely looking to just f--k any girl they can. I tend to be more in the category of screening girls for potential relationship purposes, so there's more stuff I add to my advice other than things that will just guarantee a good snogging (yeah, I'm on my U.K. ish now!).

I'm interested in hearing more about this 20 questions game. My first impressions are how do you initiate it? Isn't 20 questions too many? (texting kills relationships) Won't this reveal too much about the person, things you would normally talk/find out about on the first date?

LoL - I figured at some point someone would try and call me on this. My given mantra of "texting kills relationships" still stands. However, the 20 questions game is not a texting game; it's a game I use strictly on dating sites prior to taking a girl out to make sure I actually want to take her out.

It's almost like giving a pre-SAT exam. Yes, the SAT will have similar questions, but it's good to be somewhat prepared for what you're dealing with. The 20 questions game allows you to (a) feel out her personality a bit (in reference to how she answers the questions, whether they're one-worded answers or full sentences); (b) see if there's things about her that may clash with what you're looking for in a potential long-term partner (i.e. if you ask her how many kids she wants and she says 4 when you only want 1); and (c) helps you to build up the sexual tension, albeit in a way that's not so direct yet will still get you results.

I actually played this game with a recent date I had this past Monday. Here are the actual first 10 questions I asked her:

Question #1: What's your favorite movie of all time?
Question #2: What's the worst piece of dating advice someone ever gave you?
Question #3: What's the craziest, possibly embarrassing thing you've done out in public despite other people watching you?
Question #4: Do you currently live by yourself, with roommates or with family?

Now, up to this point my questions were fairly innocent, nothing sexual. They are examples of base questions you ask so that she feels like you're wanting to know HER, and not just bone her. Then we get to question 5:

Question #5: What would you say are 3 things that really turn you on?

This isn't an outright sexual question, but it's a tester to see where her head's at... then, it's back to "normal" questions:

Question #6: favorite season of the year and why?
Question #7: What's something you're really talented at (like a skill of some kind)?

And then, back to something sort-of-sexual:

Question #8: What is your kissing style - are you a closed-lipped kisser, open-mouth, french, sloppy, or a combination of any of the aforementioned?

Why ask this question? Because now, aside from having to explain to me what it is, she also has to imagine kissing me in the way she described it. So, without even kissing her, I've implanted the idea into her mind... then, it's back to "normal" (this, by the way, is the whole "tug and push" thing, where you get sexual for a bit then pull away, then go back to it):

Question #9: Are there any topics of conversation that are sensitive areas for you?
Question #10: You've just come home from a long day at work, and are looking to relax. What is something your partner could do for you to help with the relaxation process?

Now, this question is an alley-oop question. It's a question that isn't necessarily sexual, but can get a sexual answer depending on what she's thinking about you at this moment. At this question, the answer I got from this particular chick was:

"Well if it's all about me, draw me a bath, give me a rub down and then a couple of rounds of sex, of course!"

BOOM. 10 questions in, and I already have HER bringing up the topic of sex. Also, it was around this time that she started asking ME sexual questions, like what turns me on and my favorite sex position. At this point, I already knew I'd be getting a kiss out of her on the date - and sure enough, when the end of the night hit, she was damn near eating my face off.

Of course, there were more questions after that, but it was pretty much the same strategy - ask a couple "normal" questions, then sex questions that didn't sound perverted but made her think about me and her together in a sexual way, not just in a "friendship" way.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: Someone's gonna read this and say, "so, why didn't u go for sex??" Honestly, at this point I can do it, but I'm really looking for long-term stuff so I tend to make THEM wait until at least the 3rd date so I can make sure they're not some whack job that's going to hunt me down if we hook up and it doesn't work out. Remember guys: sex is great until they bring a knife into the bedroom and try to cut your stuff off!!

 

[DragonBlood]

I can probably vouch for Harrys advice on getting at least one drink down a woman to lower her inhibition from my own thread on struggling to find the vibe for a kiss close.

http://sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=202277

 

[asa_don]

I agree with Zarky

Anybody who doesn't know this has their head in the sand or someplace else.

A kiss doesn't mean anything if you are not getting laid