Alpha-ness and Politeness

[drak_ool]

After a general overview of the PUA world (forums, blogs, books, etc…), it seems to me that being polite with women is viewed as a beta trait. Holding the door for a woman, saying please when asking her for the ketchup, or thanks after she hands it to you automatically make you a pushover.

I disagree with that view. You can be polite and alpha at the same type. It’s just a matter of not going overboard with it. Being Alpha means to lead. You can lead women in a polite manner; you don’t have to be rude about it. Being polite is different than supplicating. While I would say “can you please pass me the salt?”, I don’t say “can you please have sex with me?”. If I am in an elevator with a woman (date or just a random stranger) I will let her exit before me; but I will not hold the car door open for my date.

The problem is that too many guys associate polite traits with their AFC days, in which they were hoping to supplicate their ways into girls’ panties. Once they realize that supplicating doesn’t mean, that you have to take charge instead, they discard everything they did in the past and try to transform themselves into an utopical Bad Boy. Yet, changing your inner frame to let your inner Alpha shine is very hard. So instead they make superficial changes, like turning rude.

They don’t make the difference between form (being polite or rude) and substance (being alpha or beta). You can be a rude beta or a polite alpha, they are not exclusive.

I wann hear from everybody else's experiences. Have you made the two co-exist in your own experience or do you find them mutually exclusive?

 

[boomerick]

I use polite gestures ie holding doors, ordering for her, seating her, to show that I'm leading. Also every polite gesture is an oportunity for 'guiding' kino to re-inforce she is going where and doing what I want. (Holding a door while my hand goes to her back to gently push her through etc.) She 'feels' special or like I'm a gentelman while I am maintaining frame and LEADING. Always done naturaly as habit, never obvious or forced. If she ever makes the mistake to call me on it or demand it that's when I go ****y-funny about her being a spoiled little girl and I refuse or make her do whatever she's calling me on. Not for everyone but works for me.

 

[Jules Verne]

**** that PUA view.

These two traits go hand in hand.

 

[horaholic]

I hold the door and say please and thank you to everyone, not just women I like. That is common courtesy. That has nothing to do with supplicating, or being alpha.

The term alpha gets thrown around too much on here. Alpha means 'dominant,' and/or 'pack leader.' Nothing more, nothing less. Being nice, and polite has nothing to do with dominance.

Take the characters from any Italian mafia movie. They are usually extremely polite, generous and courteous. Yet, if you cross them, they will fvcking kill you. Thats dominant behaviour. They do whatever the hell they want, yet they take care of the little people who (have no choice but to) help them out as well. They dont have to, and they sure as hell arent doing it so they will 'like' them. They do it to gain respect, and loyalty, and because their mothers whooped their ass for not being polite when they were young.

The key is knowing where the line between manipulation, and being nice for the sake of it. Everyone is a little manipulative. The mafia manipulates the common people by being generous, but they dont have ulterior motives. They walk into the finest restaraunt in town, and the owner better damn well give them the best table there, immediately, and in return he gets a HUGE tip. The owner respects that.

With women, it should be the same thing. We can treat them good and buy them things in return for their respect and loyalty, and everything that goes along with it. If you are being nice cuz you think she will LIKE you more, then you arent showing your true colors. Also, it doesnt really work like that. You dont want a woman to 'like' you. You want her to respect you, and submit to you. Just like a Father and a daughter. He should be good to her, because she's his girl, but she better respect him or get her ass whipped. And, like a father who spoils his little girl without really acting like a father, he is essentially 'buying' her love, instead of earning (commanding) her respect. Then she grows up to be a gold digging hor, but thats another topic.

Essentially, if you are nice because of YOU, and not HER, you are alright.

Also, its good to have a duality. If a big tough guy helps an old lady across the street, his date will be mindfvcked

 

[Perfect]

Agreed.


If you can't tell the difference between a pushover and a gentleman, you're still a boy.

 

[SBW]

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy politeness. In fact, some of the most alpha people I've ever known have also been the most polite TBH.

It seems to me though that they can use this politeness to convey confidence and independence, whilst commanding a great deal of respect, rather than crossing the line into outright obsequiousness. Which is the downfall of all too many IMO.

 

[drak_ool]

Horaholic, while I agree with you, as you can notice in my thread, other thinkers that I respect a lot, for example Roissy, have stated many times that being polite with a woman is not alpha. That's why I wanted to get others' opinions on this.

EDIT: I'm also all about the idea that being polite can in fact raise your alpha status if done right. I love the mafia example...

 

[I'm in the Mood]

In my opinion, the #1 mistake one can make with common courtesy is mistaking arrogance for politeness.

If you're expecting approval from the other person or you have an "I'm being polite" attitude, than your politeness is not genuine. Sincerity really comes in handy with politeness. In fact, I just realized this from reading this thread. Here's an example:

If you're about to go through a door and notice that there's a woman behind you, then you back up and hold the door for her, saying "ladies first," in an enthusiastic tone, you're actually seeking approval without knowing so. You're almost screaming "Look at me, I'm Mr. Nice Guy holding the door for a woman!"

A sincere man would focus more on the act of holding the door than the fact that he is holding the door, or that she is a woman. A high-status man doesn't need to prove his status, or remind himself of his status because he is a secure and non-needy person.

After realizing this, I am going to work on my sincerity and my voice tone while saying please and thank you and complimenting. I suggest you guys do the same if you think you might have this problem.

 

[Ease]

The truth to this is that there is an actual raw Alphaness that comes in the form of being direct.

There can be a BIG difference in saying, 'can u pass me that please?', and saying 'pass me that' followed by a thanks.

There is a more dominant and masculine aura around it. Of course its a small detail, but its something iv been watching and observing for a while.

There is also an issue of power and dominance when asking someone to do favours for you. You exhert power on someone else when you ask someone to do something for you DIRECTLY. Not asking politely, but more like giving a direct request that they do it. This is very useful and interesting when used between males and females alike. You can show dominance and get people to invest themselves in helping you, all subconsciously. You place your value above theirs. This is 48 Laws of Power type stuff.

Personally i am overly arrogant and make a show of being an ******* on the surface, and i find it suits my personality. It depends on style.

 

[drak_ool]

You can show dominance and get people to invest themselves in helping you, all subconsciously.

Being impolite or arrogant and being dominant are two different concepts.

Strangers simply do not respond well to arrogance. In most situations, if you go about it the arrogant/unpolite way, pple will not help you if they don't have to.

The most important distinction happens when pple have the discretion to help you or not. Say you've missed your flight, but it's unclear if it was your fault or the weather's or the airplane company. The lady at the ticket office could help you if she wanted to, but she is not required to do it. In fact company policy would dictate that she tries to extract more $$$ from you. How do you approach the situation?

1. you're demanding or arrogant. Result: she brushes you off
2. you are polite but firm and persistant in negotiating with her. Result: she helps you out.

I've been in this situation (or observed others who were stuck in it) countless times, and the arrogant guy somehow never wins.

 

[playerone]

Here's how i feel.

If you're alpha, and you know it, you don't have to show you're alpha. Let's just assume you are not a natural alpha male, and you are working your way to be alpha. Most guys tend to try too hard. They will go out of their way to make decisions, for other people, even. Or, they will literally act like they do not give a horse **** about something negative that happened to them.

The thing is, whether or not people around you can see through that, it is irritating. I was once in that stage, where i just wanted to be alpha and dominant in every situation i was in. Until one day, i realised i was being foolish.

Then, i came to a decision. I told myself i would be neutral, but deep inside i knew i would step up if i had to. If i'm going out with my friends, i'll see if they got any plans. If they had any, i'll probably have no problem with that. If they couldn't make up their minds, i will decide on a place. If i'm dating a girl, and she has plans for us, i'm cool with it, unless i genuinely don't like her idea. If she doesn't know where to go, i'll decide.

This way, you're being nice, easy-going, yet alpha at the same time.

 

[zekko]

Look at soldiers, guys who come back from the military. They generally tend to be more polite than the average person, using "ma'am" and such. I think you can definitely be polite while keeping a masculine edge to it, and that's probably how it shoud be.
On the other hand I'm sure you can take it too far and be wimpy about it, too, like apologizing for yourself and such.

 

[synergy1]

on being #1, you either are or you aren't. Being polite is mutually exclusive to this trait. Chumps can be polite, or be complete douche-bags ( have seen this more often than not), likewise players can also be anywhere along that spectrum.

Playerone pretty much hit it, a lot of guys here seem to be trying to fill this number one slot, even at the expense of just being normal. I am sure it shows in real life too. There are instances when I am called to lead, and I take advantage of those times with feverish enthusiasm. Likewise, there are times to just chill and see where the night takes you, and I am down for that too. To the pretenders, its a constant game of playing make believe.

 

[Ease]

Being impolite or arrogant and being dominant are two different concepts.

Strangers simply do not respond well to arrogance. In most situations, if you go about it the arrogant/unpolite way, pple will not help you if they don't have to.

The most important distinction happens when pple have the discretion to help you or not. Say you've missed your flight, but it's unclear if it was your fault or the weather's or the airplane company. The lady at the ticket office could help you if she wanted to, but she is not required to do it. In fact company policy would dictate that she tries to extract more $$$ from you. How do you approach the situation?

1. you're demanding or arrogant. Result: she brushes you off
2. you are polite but firm and persistant in negotiating with her. Result: she helps you out.

I've been in this situation (or observed others who were stuck in it) countless times, and the arrogant guy somehow never wins.

Yes i agree that some politeness is completely unrelated to the issue at hand. Being quiet at a library, saying thanks after receiving your meal, chewing with your mouth closed etc. are all required norms of society. It is expected that everyone has these and a general respect to other people in social interaction.

But there is some aspects of politeness that dont fly well with dominance and natural masculine attitude.

What im stressing is that by being firm and direct, you show strength and power over the other person subconsciously. This i would generally always apply to women for attraction purposes, but we can consider it in the ticket office case also.

A scenerio where you require something that she is not allowed to give you.

Exagerated Politeness: 'Would it be possible for you to check how many seats were free in the last flight, if its not too much trouble' With stupid cute beta grin on face.

Exagerated Directness: 'Ok, do me a favour, check how many free seats were in that last flight', With a serious look on face and a tone that you expect her to comply.

Of course, this is a bad scenario that isnt DJ related, and both of these methods are unlikely to work. But its clear to see which is the more dominant and fitting of a man.

It isnt arrogance that the second approach has, it is simply stripped down of weak beta politeness that we are conditioned to and taught by our mothers. It is more likely to produce a smile and sympathy, but is WEAKER and places your value below hers. It is, what i'd consider, direct, and what other people might consider as 'impolite'.

I dont suggest this at a ticket office, but do this with a new girl at a bar, and you immediately are clint eastwood.