Almost got arrested for DJing

[Luke Skywalker]

And where in the law is it illegal to touch people?

Technically touching people without their express consent is assault. If you touch people in a sexual way it's sexual assault. If your flirting is not welcome it could be sexual harassment. If someone really wants to cause trouble, and the police officer and DA really takes them seriously, then they can.

Next time a police officer ask ya that, call him or her out on it.

They have guns, tasers, hand-cuffs, and can put you in jail at least overnight without any judicial oversight and do anything they want with you during that time. That could be playing with fire. It's best to just remain silent in these situations and let nature take it's course and hope nothing happens. You could make a malicious prosecution lawsuit at the end of the day, but do you really want to risk your physical safety?

But really these officers are grade A idiots. Since when did socializing become a crime. Since when did flirting become a crime. Those people need to stop s*cking d*ck, especially the female one.

The States is messed up. If the police and DA want to come down hard and heavy on someone, especially if they are black in a white neighbourhood, they can cook up all sorts of crap. They can bring up a loitering and tresspassing charge if they were flirting in someone's lawn or appeared to be hanging around the street being idle. I've already listed a number of charges above there. Heck, the police can plant evidence and make false charges if you are really dealing with a rotten apple.

What you need is a hidden camera or someone taking pictures around because that's the best defence you've got against crazy cops, and even that don't work sometimes.

I'd dismiss this as an isolated incident that happened there. These cops ain't going to bother the OP again. Well - that really made a real halloween scare.

 

[ElStud]

Technically touching people without their express consent is assault. If you touch people in a sexual way it's sexual assault. If your flirting is not welcome it could be sexual harassment. If someone really wants to cause trouble, and the police officer and DA really takes them seriously, then they can.



They have guns, tasers, hand-cuffs, and can put you in jail at least overnight without any judicial oversight and do anything they want with you during that time. That could be playing with fire. It's best to just remain silent in these situations and let nature take it's course and hope nothing happens. You could make a malicious prosecution lawsuit at the end of the day, but do you really want to risk your physical safety?



The States is messed up. If the police and DA want to come down hard and heavy on someone, especially if they are black in a white neighbourhood, they can cook up all sorts of crap. They can bring up a loitering and tresspassing charge if they were flirting in someone's lawn or appeared to be hanging around the street being idle. I've already listed a number of charges above there. Heck, the police can plant evidence and make false charges if you are really dealing with a rotten apple.

What you need is a hidden camera or someone taking pictures around because that's the best defence you've got against crazy cops, and even that don't work sometimes.

I'd dismiss this as an isolated incident that happened there. These cops ain't going to bother the OP again. Well - that really made a real halloween scare.

But like dude said, he wasn't even groping him. And he even mentioned giving hugs. Dude, I hug my grandma, I hug my mother, does that mean anything sexual? No. Police here were douchbags. And yes, it's sexual harassment if the flirting is unwelcome, but most likely she'll only tell if she told you no and ya kept going. And being the guy I am, I'm not even worried about that stuff cause I see it all as practicing my game.

Bottom line, someone felt like being a d*ck, told the police about the incident and the police decided to be douches about it.

Funny thing is, is I bet if they saw some broad going around kissing every dude and dude told the police, they'd say "Oh, that's fine". Some f*cked up sh*t.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

But like dude said, he wasn't even groping him. And he even mentioned giving hugs. Dude, I hug my grandma, I hug my mother, does that mean anything sexual? No. Police here were douchbags.

Technically, a hug could be sexual assault if the breasts are D size or higher because they are rubbing against your chest and are deriving sexual energies. If it's your family, then obviously they are not going to charge you. Even if nothing sexual occured you still have an assault charge.

I'm saying, if they want to bring a charge, they certainly can and make life hell for people. If you got charged with sexual assault or harassment, your reputation is down the tubes and your physical safety is left to the mercy of the criminal system.

LIke I said before, a police can charge someone or a group for loitering and tresspassing if they just see a group of people idle and looking like they are having fun and they just don't like them and want to cause trouble for someone. If someone objects to the police, they can just pull out a Taser and zap them and hopefully they don't go into cardio arrest and die. If the group wasn't out just minding their own business going trick-or-treating and sticking to themselves, then you've got that sort of charge.

That's what makes cold approaching dangerous sometimes. Sarging could be construed as loitering if you are wandering aimlessly looking for a woman to talk to. Approaching people with an intended purpose to talk to them could be construed as harassment or sexual harrassment or even solicitation. Touching someone could be assault or sexual assault. Even if the charge doesn't ultimatley stick in court, just being in that system is very dangrous.
Now, the liklihood is, if you don't grope women or touch their breasts and don't get too persistent with a stranger who is showing some resistance, you'll probably be okay, but with all these types of laws, racial profiling, and discretionary powers given by these ambigious or grey area sets of laws, there is always some element of legal risk when talking with women doing purely cold approaches that you don't know from an established social circle.

Do I personally take these laws seriously? Of course not. I talk to strangers all the time to solicit them for business. I hand out my business card. Never got charged for solicitation although it's prohibited in most public shopping places or malls. Stupid laws are meant to be broken. I break advertising laws most of the time too to promote my business. And yeah - lots of people on here probably take plenty of calculated risks in their seductions, but if the seduction really goes bad, they could be in legal hot water.

And yes, it's sexual harassment if the flirting is unwelcome, but most likely she'll only tell if she told you no and ya kept going. And being the guy I am, I'm not even worried about that stuff cause I see it all as practicing my game.

How do you know the 'no' is not a sh1t test. How about the anti-slvt defence or last minute resistance? How many player stuff on this board teaches game that virtually plays with fire?

If people were to follow the letter of the law it seems they wouldn't get laid or get anywhere. They would have to take a contract out, and not only ask a woman permission before kissing her, but would have to ask her to sign an express consent form stating that it's okay to kiss her. I mean everything would have to be in writing, tape-recorded in video and audio, otherwise you are never 100% safe.

Again, this is from a standpoint that people are discouraged from asking for permission to kiss or sex because that kills the mood, or it doesn't work very well in seduction - yet without that permission or ascertaining she is really ready, you are taking a calculated legal risk for a serious charge.

Like I said before, I know there has to be a balance somewhere, because you don't want to live in a straigt-jacket and have an invisible ten foot pole around you because it just a game-killer. But then again, when running game directly puts yourself up to legal risks and mine-fields, then it could start becoming a dangerous game.

I don't know any game involving women that's completely risk free unless you are paying a prostitute because a woman can make up charges at any time. Maybe if you hit on immigrant woman that cant speak English and would be inimidated by the legal system you have less worried or something. I hear people grope Muslim women back in my town since they don't complain to the cops as it's contrary to their religion. But you wouldn't want to get that low to target women who you know won't complain because you just become a low-life when you do that stuff anyway.

So when gaming, deal with women who don't habitually cry to the police - use that as part of your 'prequalifying'.

 

[btownbuck2012]

.....yup

 

[ElStud]

Technically, a hug could be sexual assault if the breasts are D size or higher because they are rubbing against your chest and are deriving sexual energies. If it's your family, then obviously they are not going to charge you. Even if nothing sexual occured you still have an assault charge.

I'm saying, if they want to bring a charge, they certainly can and make life hell for people. If you got charged with sexual assault or harassment, your reputation is down the tubes and your physical safety is left to the mercy of the criminal system.

LIke I said before, a police can charge someone or a group for loitering and tresspassing if they just see a group of people idle and looking like they are having fun and they just don't like them and want to cause trouble for someone. If the group wasn't out just minding their own business going trick-or-treating and sticking to themselves, then you've got that sort of charge.

That's what makes cold approaching dangerous sometimes. Sarging could be construed as loitering if you are wandering aimlessly looking for a woman to talk to. Approaching people with an intended purpose to talk to them could be construed as harassment or sexual harrassment or even solicitation. Touching someone could be assault or sexual assault. Even if the charge doesn't ultimatley stick in court, just being in that system is very dangrous.
Now, the liklihood is, if you don't grope women or touch their breasts and don't get too persistent with a stranger who is showing some resistance, you'll probably be okay, but with all these types of laws, racial profiling, and discretionary powers given by these ambigious or grey area sets of laws, there is always some element of legal risk when talking with women doing purely cold approaches that you don't know from an established social circle.

Do I personally take these laws seriously? Of course not. I talk to strangers all the time to solicit them for business. I hand out my business card. Never got charged for solicitation although it's prohibited in most public shopping places or malls. Stupid laws are meant to be broken.




How do you know the 'no' is not a sh1t test. How about the anti-slvt defence or last minute resistance? How many player stuff on this board teaches game that virtually plays with fire?

If people were to follow the letter of the law it seems they wouldn't get laid or get anywhere. They would have to take a contract out, and not only ask a woman permission before kissing her, but would have to ask her to sign an express consent form stating that it's okay to kiss her. I mean everything would have to be in writing, tape-recorded in video and audio, otherwise you are never 100% safe.

Again, this is from a standpoint that people are discouraged from asking for permission to kiss or sex because that kills the mood, or it doesn't work very well in seduction - yet without that permission or ascertaining she is really ready, you are taking a calculated legal risk for a serious charge.

Like I said before, I know there has to be a balance somewhere, because you don't want to live in a straigt-jacket and have an invisible ten foot pole around you because it just a game-killer. But then again, when running game directly puts yourself up to legal risks and mine-fields, then it could start becoming a dangerous game.

I don't know any game involving women that's completely risk free unless you are paying a prostitute because a woman can make up charges at any time. Maybe if you hit on immigrant woman that cant speak English and would be inimidated by the legal system you have less worried or something. I hear people grope Muslim women back in my town since they don't complain to the cops as it's contrary to their religion. But you wouldn't want to get that low to target women who you know won't complain because you just become a low-life when you do that stuff anyway.

So when gaming, deal with women who don't habitually cry to the police - use that as part of your 'prequalifying'.

Well the way I see it is if she feels you're harassing her, you're giving off bad vibes. First of all if you're touching her to the point where she feels harassed, she's probably not comfortable. And yeah, the "no" can be a sh*t test, but most guys would probably react to it with something like "Why can't I touch you? I thought we had something". After all, harassment isn't if you just touched once and she was uncomfortable, it's if you keep constantly touching and she's uncomfortable.

Still sexual harassment in this society, can be an excuse for a girl to get back at a guy. After all, picture it, beautiful blonde babe with huge boobs who gives most guys a hard on yells "Sexual Harassment!" everyone's gonna believe it, even if it's total BS. This can get a lot of innocent dudes in trouble.

 

[btownbuck2012]

Originally Posted by Nexus Polaris
She wanted me to throw this guy out because he wasn't paying attention to her. She then threatened to key his car in the parking lot if I didn't.

that's fvcked up man. but i 100% believe it.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Well the way I see it is if she feels you're harassing her, you're giving off bad vibes. First of all if you're touching her to the point where she feels harassed, she's probably not comfortable. And yeah, the "no" can be a sh*t test, but most guys would probably react to it with something like "Why can't I touch you? I thought we had something". After all, harassment isn't if you just touched once and she was uncomfortable, it's if you keep constantly touching and she's uncomfortable.

Harassment doesn't involve touching through. If you are touching her then it's a more serious charge than just talking to someone who isn't responding back to you. Saying you could be giving off 'bad vibes' isn't really encouraging to newbies here because they are already shy to approach women to talk to them. Now adding a dimension of a legal risk of an harassment charge -- ?

So, what are you saying Elstud? Most women are " reasonable ".

Of course you have to believe that most normal women will behave in a reasonable manner to you and that's your position. I agree with that. I don't think anyone is going to be successful with women without that belief because you have to have some element of trust when you are dealing with women, and if you don't have that basic trust - then no matter what game you are using, you are going to have a problem. That lack of trust is going to rub off in some way and you get paranoid like everyone's out to get you.
That's another extreme to avoid from hearing stories like this.

 

[btownbuck2012]

Dude Luke, nobody was harassing anybody that night trust me.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

I know nobody was not harassing anyone. But, you did not get a reasonable reaction from what you experienced by the police last night to whatever you did and it is grossly unfair.

 

[Paintballguy]

probably some drama queen *****

 

[ElStud]

All I got to say Luke is, who the f*ck cares if she thinks you're harassing her. You approach girls to get better at YOUR game and if something like this happens once in a while, it's no big deal. Most likely though, if she says you're harassing her you've got to be giving off a very bad vibe, that or the girls just some weirdo who doesn't like to be touched. If you're giving off a good, genuine vibe she's probably not gonna call harassment.

Then again, like a few have stated earlier, there are b*tches who will call "harassment" for stupid reasons.

 

[oakraiderz2]

All I got to say Luke is, who the f*ck cares if she thinks you're harassing her. You approach girls to get better at YOUR game and if something like this happens once in a while, it's no big deal. Most likely though, if she says you're harassing her you've got to be giving off a very bad vibe, that or the girls just some weirdo who doesn't like to be touched. If you're giving off a good, genuine vibe she's probably not gonna call harassment.

Then again, like a few have stated earlier, there are b*tches who will call "harassment" for stupid reasons.

Something like this wouldnt happen if you were giving good vibes and the girls were diggin it. Being charged with harassment isnt worth getting better at gaming girls.

 

[ElStud]

Something like this wouldnt happen if you were giving good vibes and the girls were diggin it. Being charged with harassment isnt worth getting better at gaming girls.

Thing is no matter how creepy you come off it's not likely to even happen. Especially if you're just doing light kino. But if you're like groping her boobs or trying to touch her in a sexual area, when she isn't comfortable with it, that's not even sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is if you're persistantly doing trying to do it.

And don't forget that, just because a girl calls sexual harassment doesn't mean it actually was. Some girls'll just call that sh*t for attention.

But really, you shouldn't be afraid to touch a girl. Touching is a natural part of sexual interaction. Infact, girls WANT you to escalate with them, it's just most guys don't have the balls to do it. Even if a creepy dude actually had the balls to escalate he might get lucky once if he passed the sh*t test.

And in the end, if girls just had the power to say the word "No", they wouldn't need laws for this type of sh*t.

 

[Igetit!]

Most likely though, if she says you're harassing her you've got to be giving off a very bad vibe, that or the girls just some weirdo who doesn't like to be touched. If you're giving off a good, genuine vibe she's probably not gonna call harassment.

Then again, like a few have stated earlier, there are b*tches who will call "harassment" for stupid reasons.

Yeah,I agree with you on this one ElStud. Personally,I don't believe in sexual harrassment. The way I look at it,it just comes down to whether the girl likes you or not.You can have two guys who say the same thing,do the same thing,or touch a woman in exactly the same way. Both guys can do everything exactly the same,but the difference is this: With the guy she likes,it's called flirting,but with the guy she doesn't like,it's called sexual harrassment. So the laws created for sexual harrassment are not defined by what a guy does,they're defined by whether or not the girl likes the sexual advances or not.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Thing is no matter how creepy you come off it's not likely to even happen. Especially if you're just doing light kino. But if you're like groping her boobs or trying to touch her in a sexual area, when she isn't comfortable with it, that's not even sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is if you're persistantly doing trying to do it.

Elstud, I would encourage you to have a chat with a criminal defence lawyer or check it up on the internet to get the facts straight about your legal concepts.

First of all, harassment refers to 'verbal' not touching. Assault refers to touching. At least in the laws up here in Canada. If you just grope someone you could be charged with sexual assault. However, given the minor type of offense, you would probably just be liable to probation, but it would be on your criminal record or go on a sex offence registry and have other professional ranmnifications. So, that touch on a sexual area or boobs could result in a bomb-shell.

In terms of being charged for a verbal offence such as unwanted flirting with some lady, I see that as unlikely to happen since if a woman is unresponsive or is answering choppy, you are not going to want to talk to her anyway no matter how hot she looks. Sure you may try a bit of game to chat her up, but if you are not succeeding you eventually cut bait.

Same thing with groping and fondling a stranger -- you are just not going to do it unless she has already accepted you in some level (i.e. she touches you first or behaves in a manner or way that it she would be okay with it). Nobody is going to want to gross a woman out or freak her out anyway as it's counter-productive to seduction - and why would anyone want to settle for bread-crumbs (groping) when they could end up in jail, rather than a full seduction? So, in both cases, the law doesn't really fix behaviour up since if you don't get a reinforcment (i.e. getting laid at the end of the day), there is no point about it anyway.

 

[oakraiderz2]

Yeah,I agree with you on this one ElStud. Personally,I don't believe in sexual harrassment. The way I look at it,it just comes down to whether the girl likes you or not.You can have two guys who say the same thing,do the same thing,or touch a woman in exactly the same way. Both guys can do everything exactly the same,but the difference is this: With the guy she likes,it's called flirting,but with the guy she doesn't like,it's called sexual harrassment. So the laws created for sexual harrassment are not defined by what a guy does,they're defined by whether or not the girl likes the sexual advances or not.

Yea, that kind of mindset will result in you being a sex offender, so keep it up. You touch a girl who doesnt like it you either get arrested or you get your ass beat. Whats wrong with a girl not wanting to be touched by some guy she doesnt want touching her? You dont see a problem with that? If some guy was all over my girl and touching her when she said to stop i beat some ass. This shouldnt be an issue if you were a decent human being. Same goes for ElChode.

 

[ElStud]

In the end, all comes down to subcommunication. Sure you could say that if you tried to grab a random girl, she call sexual assualt, but if you've never tried it you wouldn't be able to say anything. Infact, really you can do ANYTHING if you want, you might get consequented for it, but you can do anything you want.

Reason most guys ARE afraid to just randomly grab girls off of the street is really because they're afraid of failure. And in the end, she slaps you, she yells at you so what, next set, the outcome of one set shouldn't affect you. In the end just do whatever your style is, but know that if you honestly wanted to, you COULD do whatever you wanted.

But this a deeper issue. Point is, you're verbally harassing a woman, you've got problems. You're sexually assualting a woman, you got problems. But touching is purely natural.

What's do a rapist and someone who's good at seduction have in common? They just don't care. They're not afraid of what will happen if they escalate. The difference? A rapist does it because he's crazy and a guy who's good at seduction does it because he wants sex.

 

[Igetit!]

Yea, that kind of mindset will result in you being a sex offender, so keep it up. You touch a girl who doesnt like it you either get arrested or you get your ass beat. Whats wrong with a girl not wanting to be touched by some guy she doesnt want touching her? You dont see a problem with that? If some guy was all over my girl and touching her when she said to stop i beat some ass. This shouldnt be an issue if you were a decent human being. Same goes for ElChode.

You misunderstood me. If a girl doesn't want to be touched,whether it's light kino or something more overt,then of course you shouldn't touch her. That's just plain common sense.Yes,I do see a problem with a guy touching a girl if she doesn't welcome it. I was just saying that whether it's sexual harrassment or not isn't defined by the actual act itself,it's defined by whether or not she likes it. It's not the act itself,(such as touching her back,breasts,or backside),it's whether SHE LIKES IT OR NOT.
If you touch her and kino her a lot,and she invites you to touch her more,it's flirting.
If you touch her and kino her,and she calls the cops,it's harrassment.

In both examples,the touching and kino were the same,so where's the crime?
The crime is whether or not the girl accepts being touched,not the actual act of touching her.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

In the end, all comes down to subcommunication. Sure you could say that if you tried to grab a random girl, she call sexual assualt, but if you've never tried it you wouldn't be able to say anything. Infact, really you can do ANYTHING if you want, you might get consequented for it, but you can do anything you want.

Did you say 'might' get consequented for it? Are you for REAL?

That's enough to scare people away. Nobody wants trouble.

Do you realize what you are saying? Not only could you get rejected, you 'might' get consequented? You know, if you get charged and convicted with something, even if you get probation and no jail time, your name goes on a record for the rest of your life and you could be denied employment opportunities?

Reason most guys ARE afraid to just randomly grab girls off of the street is really because they're afraid of failure. And in the end, she slaps you, she yells at you so what, next set, the outcome of one set shouldn't affect you.

But this a deeper issue. Point is, you're verbally harassing a woman, you've got problems. You're sexually assualting a woman, you got problems. But touching is purely natural.

Yeah, but if your flirting or touch is not welcome by the woman, then that's verbal harassment and sexual assault, as igtit poitned out, two different guys could do exactly the same thing, but one guy may be flirting, the other guy may be sexual assault/harassment.

What's do a rapist and someone who's good at seduction have in common? They just don't care. They're not afraid of what will happen if they escalate. The difference? A rapist does it because he's crazy and a guy who's good at seduction does it because he wants sex.

Or maybe the rapist is simply uglier than the one who is good at seduction. Igtit makes sence on this one. There is no objecive standard on knowing if you are harassing or assaulting someone. Even if they are nice to you they could turn on you and call the cops at any time.

I don't know if the rapist is crazy, I would think that again it depends on the woman, not the guy.

The real problem is this -- if you practise DJ stuff you risk going to jail if you practise it with the wrong girl. If it is counter-intuitive for a woman to be making sexual advances or encouraging kino and the man has to do all of the escalation, etc... then yeah, that sounds like you are exposing yourself to lots of legal risks, because there is no sure fire way of knowing if it's welcome or not, if it's a sh1t test or not, if it's last minute resistance or not, or whatever.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Analyzing compaints, the reports show stats is low. So it's unlikely to get charged for being a DJ and practising that stuff.

So, this DJ stuff this site teaches, is borderline criminal because you are taking risk with women without having a signed contract of their consent...well, at least the risks of getting a bad apple are low according to the stats.

I don't know, maybe women are not as bad as I think they are, I don't even know what personal experience I have that can corroborate with some of my 'black' type of thinking, since I've never touched a girl where a charge resulted from it. Most of this stuff is in my head.

It's like not driving a car for fear you may get into an accident. Of course there is always a chance something can happen if you make one slip-up, but it would suck if you cant drive because of it.