All-time boxing P4P lists:

[CLOONEY]

Hey guys, I was just wondering what your thoughts are on all-time P4P lists? Who do you think are the greatest fighters ever?

I have not compiled a list (because I beleive picking fighters exactly in order is nearly impossible), but here goes a few names that I definately think belong up the top:

Ray Robinson
Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Harry Greb
Gene Tunney
Sam Langford
Roy Jones Jr
Thomas Hearns
Oscar De La Hoya
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
Joe Gans
Eder Jofre
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Sandy Saddler
Willie Pep
Jimmy Wilde

Honerable mentions: Alexis Arguello, Pernell Whitaker, Aaron Pryor, Rocky Marciano.

Anyone agree or disagree on any of these fighters? Opinions? Especially you Gangster, what are your thoughts on the all-timers?

This is something I am especially interested in, so if you know something about our great sport, please give me your thoughts.....?

 

[SnoopDoggyCow]

honorable mentions, rocky marciano????

are you crazy, you should put the guy on the top tier of that list.


Undefeated as a heavy weight


UNDEFEATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHO HAS EVER DONE THAT

NOBODY.

DONT GIVE ME THIS OVER RATED CRAP, THE GUY GOT UP FROM KNOCK DOWNS AND KEPT GOING, LIKE ARTURO GATTI AND JOE MESI DOES

HE DOESNT LIE DOWN FROM A BODY SHOT LIKE OSCAR

 

[CLOONEY]

Yes, but this body shot was from a great figher, in Oscars 6th weight division. Marciano beat who? Joe Walcott twice (Walcott was not that great, and was beaten by Joey Maxim, who was also outboxed by a former lightweight in Ray Robinson). Who else? Ezzard Charles, who was a former light-heavyweight. He was floored by Archie Moore but ended up winning, Archie was also a light heavyweight. He also beat and OLD and I mean OLD OLD WAYYYY past his prime Joe Louis. This is the best of his opposition. It is not the greatest, but its still good. I could easily add him to that list, it was just a quickly compiled list, as I could add many more to the honerable mentions list, Lopez, Tszyu, Bhop, Holmes, Johnson etc. I dont however think that Marciano belongs anywhere near the top of the all-time P4P list.

Guys like Sam Langford nearly beat Jack Johnson, it was just their times and the racism they were stuck in that stopped them from being as great as a guy like, who knows, Henry Armstrong.

 

[CLOONEY]

And please dont use the names Arturo Gatti and especially Joe Mesi in this thread again.

Thanks for the input though.

 

[CLOONEY]

Just while they cross my mind, a few more:

Jack Dempsey, Billy Conn and Ike Williams deserve and honerable mention.

Added to the list:

Micky Walker
Benny Leonard

 

[SnoopDoggyCow]

The only thing Ill give you is that Joe Louis was way past his prime when Marciano beat him. But Walcott and Ezzard Charles were great fighters, and they were the best opposition Marciano could face. Remember Marciano too was light for a heavy weight, I think if he fought today he might be considered a light heavy if not a cruiser. The majority of the people he beat out weighed him. He is just great. It isn't his fault of who is available in his era.

When you talk about all time greats, you can look at it 2 ways. The whole career, or their prime

In their prime, I feel the following fighters were monsters

Sugar Ray Robinson
Roy Jones Jr.
Cassius Clay
Mike Tyson
Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya

on another note, I hear Joe Mesi is trying to come back. Obviously he is still young and has not gotten into the limelight of his career, but he has the tools to be something special.

 

[CLOONEY]

When I look at all-time perspectives, I look at their primes, their careers (sometimes fighters have some big wins outside their primes) aka, Leonard captured multiple more weight divisions and had some good wins outside his prime. I look at the weight divisions they attained, who they fought, how dominating they were in their big fights, who dominated they once might have been in a big fight. (I.e. BHOP being dominated by Roy, diminishing BHOPs legacy to me, however I give it to him, he was green, but so was Jones). And finally the most important, by viewing them myself and watching their talent. (one man who is definately not given enough credit is Carlos Ortiz).

As for Marciano, he was light, however back then, generally, all men were lighter.

Walcott was a good solid heavyweight, but by no means great IMHO, not to mention he was giving Rocky a big run for his money before the very end. Charles and Moore were good wins, but once again much smaller men. Marciano was far physically stronger than them. Louis was, yes, old. However, like I said, I could easily add Marciano into that list, dont confuse what I am saying. He was a great figher and one of the best, but not up with the likes of a Ray Leonard, who beat Duran, Hearns, Hagler (a shell of Hagler anyways), Benitez and many more good fighters. These guys along with Robinsons comp (Olson, Turpin, Maxim, Graziano, Lamotta, Gavilan etc) are FAR better than that of Marciano. Considering Ray was moving up and fighting with some big disadvantages in weight for some of these fights. He also captured multiple divisions, something that unfortuantely it is impossible to do when being a heavyweight. However, by simply watching guys like Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, I can see that they are far more complete than a guy like Marciano. Much as I think heavies like Joe Louis and Ali are far more complete than Marciano.

 

[CLOONEY]

As for Joe Mesi, he was nearly beaten and KOd by Jirov. This is a man who cant mix it up with the heavies. Other than that, Mesi has absolutely NO good competition on his resume. To me Mesi is simply hype, much like Michael Grant was.

 

[SnoopDoggyCow]

I guess we just disagree on Marciano. I think the fact that he's undefeated means a lot. He fought the best that was available to him, and won. When you are the best of your era, you are great, plain and simple. I'll put him in the same breath as Ali, Louis, Paterson,Dempsey etc....

What do you think of the other list of fighters I mentioned. I'll try and give you an example of what I mean, and want to see your answer.

Who beats Cassius Clay on the night he fought Sonny Liston for the 2nd time?

Who beats Tyson on the night he fought Trevor Berbick?

Who beats Roy the night he fought James Toney?

Who beats Oscar the night he fought Julio C for the first time?

also fyi, that fight BHOP fought against Roy Jones was a lot closer than its made out to be.

Watch it again, listening to the commentators they are all pro Roy becaue he was already famous and BHOP was unregonized. I think if that fight happend the way it did today, it would be a lot closer.

p.s.

Who beats Evander the night he fought Rid**** Bowe for the second time?

 

[CLOONEY]

Originally posted by SnoopDoggyCow
I guess we just disagree on Marciano. I think the fact that he's undefeated means a lot. He fought the best that was available to him, and won. When you are the best of your era, you are great, plain and simple. I'll put him in the same breath as Ali, Louis, Paterson,Dempsey etc....

What do you think of the other list of fighters I mentioned. I'll try and give you an example of what I mean, and want to see your answer.

Who beats Cassius Clay on the night he fought Sonny Liston for the 2nd time?

Who beats Tyson on the night he fought Trevor Berbick?

Who beats Roy the night he fought James Toney?

Who beats Oscar the night he fought Julio C for the first time?

also fyi, that fight BHOP fought against Roy Jones was a lot closer than its made out to be.

Watch it again, listening to the commentators they are all pro Roy becaue he was already famous and BHOP was unregonized. I think if that fight happend the way it did today, it would be a lot closer.

p.s.

Who beats Evander the night he fought Rid**** Bowe for the second time?

Yes, when you are the best of your era, you are great, definately, but there are some fighters, who are just a step above even those who were at the top of their own respective eras.

As far as mentioning Patterson, he doesnt belong with the names you mentioned, who did he beat? He even lost to Johannson.

Ok, here goes, these aer all my honest opinions:

Clay, noone beats him that night, a prime Louis might go close.

Tyson, a prime Clay would beat him. Other than that, I think he might upset Louis and most of the other great heavies.

Roy now has a suspect chin, however, if that holds up, no other super middle in history would beat him that night.

Oscar the night he beat Chavez could be VERY VERY hard to beat, the only other 140 pounder in history who could take him would possibly be Pryor. But then, if you were to put that Oscar against a prime welter Robinson or Leonard, I think he would be beaten.

As for BHOP V Jones, I have watched that fight numerous times, and every single time I have Jones winning 9-3. 8-4 is the best possible outcome I can give to BHOP. And I am by no means biased. Oscar is my favourite all-time figher, but I would not have him even in the top 10 of all-time. He would be very hard pressed to make my top 20.

 

[Takaloo]

Originally posted by SnoopDoggyCow
I guess we just disagree on Marciano. I think the fact that he's undefeated means a lot. He fought the best that was available to him, and won. When you are the best of your era, you are great, plain and simple. I'll put him in the same breath as Ali, Louis, Paterson,Dempsey etc....

What do you think of the other list of fighters I mentioned. I'll try and give you an example of what I mean, and want to see your answer.

Who beats Cassius Clay on the night he fought Sonny Liston for the 2nd time?

Who beats Tyson on the night he fought Trevor Berbick?

Who beats Roy the night he fought James Toney?

Who beats Oscar the night he fought Julio C for the first time?

also fyi, that fight BHOP fought against Roy Jones was a lot closer than its made out to be.

Watch it again, listening to the commentators they are all pro Roy becaue he was already famous and BHOP was unregonized. I think if that fight happend the way it did today, it would be a lot closer.

p.s.

Who beats Evander the night he fought Rid**** Bowe for the second time?

Nobody beats Clay that night.

Clay beats Tyson who beat Berbeck.

Nobody, Roy was the king at that weight.

 

[Takaloo]

Originally posted by SnoopDoggyCow
honorable mentions, rocky marciano????

are you crazy, you should put the guy on the top tier of that list.


Undefeated as a heavy weight


UNDEFEATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHO HAS EVER DONE THAT

NOBODY.

DONT GIVE ME THIS OVER RATED CRAP, THE GUY GOT UP FROM KNOCK DOWNS AND KEPT GOING, LIKE ARTURO GATTI AND JOE MESI DOES

HE DOESNT LIE DOWN FROM A BODY SHOT LIKE OSCAR

Who did Marciano beat in their prime?

Marciano was 180 pounds.

Sure he had great stamina, but he didn't fight guys who were in their prime like Ali, Frazier, Forman, Tyson etc.

Don't ever mention Joe Mesi in the same breath as Marciano you fool.

And you have obviously never been hit right on the button with a body shot.

 

[Takaloo]

Originally posted by CLOONEY
Hey guys, I was just wondering what your thoughts are on all-time P4P lists? Who do you think are the greatest fighters ever?

I have not compiled a list (because I beleive picking fighters exactly in order is nearly impossible), but here goes a few names that I definately think belong up the top:

Ray Robinson
Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Harry Greb
Gene Tunney
Sam Langford
Roy Jones Jr
Thomas Hearns
Oscar De La Hoya
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
Joe Gans
Eder Jofre
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Sandy Saddler
Willie Pep
Jimmy Wilde

Honerable mentions: Alexis Arguello, Pernell Whitaker, Aaron Pryor, Rocky Marciano.

Anyone agree or disagree on any of these fighters? Opinions? Especially you Gangster, what are your thoughts on the all-timers?

This is something I am especially interested in, so if you know something about our great sport, please give me your thoughts.....?

I don't think Tunney should be as high as you have him. Certainly Ali and Loius should be higher. I don't really like debating over lists like these because it's all so subjective.

 

[Takaloo]

on another note, I hear Joe Mesi is trying to come back. Obviously he is still young and has not gotten into the limelight of his career, but he has the tools to be something special. [/B]

What tools? Please.

Mesi is a bum heavyweight.

He has a poor chin and even poorer stamina.

Didn't you watch the Jirov fight???? A few more seconds and he would have been stopped. And then he point blank refuses to give Jirov a rematch.

Mesi won't be going anywhere. Don't buy into this Mesi-media. He is a bum and a joke. The division is quite bad at the moment, but not bad enough for Mesi to emerge as "something special".

 

[affliction]

I don't keep up with boxing enough to say who is truly the best, but my vote goes to Roy Jones. He was my favorite boxer for a long time. I always loved the way he moved. So much finesse.

His last two fights were pretty disappointing.

 

[InsidiousNstinct]

This is gonna sound stereotypical, Heck I don't watch a lot of boxing or know half the guys on your list. But I gotta go with ALI just because of his attitude.

Not saying he's the best, just my favorite.

Just my two cents...



Tootles...

 

[SnoopDoggyCow]

Alright number 1

I am not comparing Marciano to Joe Mesi. I realize Mesi hasn't really accomplished anything great yet. But he is a good heavyweight with potential.

You ask what tools he has? How about power, and resiliancy.

You like to point out how Jirov had him down like its a bad thing. I look at it the other way. Mesi who was ahead the whole fight, got up and finished the fight. Thats shows he has heart. Heart and power hmmm what great heavyweight is known for that???

And yeah I know a body shot in the right spot can knock you out. Oscar is one of my favorite fighters, or at least was. Its just when you see guys like Mayorga and Gatti take punishment and still keep coming, it makes you question someone's heart.


Floyd Paterson is definitely a great heavy weight. Like Marciano, he was the best for his time (before the Sonny Liston fight)

Now as far as the fights I mentioned

I say Oscar beats Pryor thats night.

Tyson could beat Clay that night, I mean Joe Frazier who doesn't hit as hard floored Ali, why couldn't a crazy killer like Tyson do it? You never know, so I wouldn't be so quick to say Clay wins. I think it could go either way.

Nobody, and I mean nobody beats Roy Jones the night he fought Toney.

I say a prime Marciano knocks out a prime Joe Louis in the late rounds, or wins a decision.

True Louis was washed up when Marciano fought him, but he still is a great fighter, and Marciano disgraced him.

 

[SnoopDoggyCow]

By the way, Gatti got up from a Micky Ward body shot that probably would have knocked someone without as much heart out.

Tell me this guys' heart isn't huge????

 

[Bonhomme]

Marciano, Walcott, and Louis

Yeah, Louis was well past his prime when Marciano beat him. This is mixing apples and oranges, but Maciano was like Utah's college football team this last year and Miami Ohio's the prior year: as good a record as anybody, but didn't get a proper test when they were in their groove.

We are talking pound for pound here, and Marciano did go undefeated against bigger guys. He had an iron chin and incredible endurance by all accounts. The only kind of fighter of his weight who might beat him might be a super-skilled and fast fighter like Muhammad Ali in 1967. Of course, a much larger, more powerful fighter like early 70s George Foreman might knock him flat before he could even get in to land a decent shot, but again, we're talking pound for pound.

Speaking of untested fighters, who knows what Teofilo Stevenson of Cuba would have done against the classic fighters of his time (Ali, Frazier, Foreman, etc.)?

Jersey Joe Walcott? My dad (who was a lot closer an observer for obvious reasons) thinks he was the best heavyweight of his era, but didn't get a proper shot until he was past his prime. It is generally agreed he clearly beat Louis when they fought, but at the time judges would very rarely give a decision to a challenger.

Still, hard to imagine anyone beating Ali in his 1967 prime.

 

[SnoopDoggyCow]

Good post Bonhomme

Also the fact that Rocky Marciano's undefeated consecutive record hasn't been broken. Larry Holmes came close I believ,e but the lost the fight to one of the Spinks brothers that would have break his record. He also deserves to be mentioned as a great heavy weight, but gets the same criticism Marciano does as there not being enough competition during his era.