a more serious topic - depression

joekerr31

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hey gents,

i thought i'd toss this out there for consideration. it seems one of the biggest obstacles a lot of mature men face is depression.

when we were young and full of piss and vinegar the future seemed a million miles away.

but when you get in to your 30s you have a pretty good scope on life, both the good stuff and the bad stuff.

a lot of guys get sort of depressed / defeatist in their 30s. thats why a lot of guys settle for the crabby wife i think.

I think a big problem for a lot of AFCs is actually, in part, depression.

surely most of us here have suffered the 'blues' at various times in life.

anyone have any interest perspectives on how they stay positive as life marches on?
 

jophil28

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Yeah, I go out Salsa dancing with hot 25 Year olds.. Good medicine.
 

jophil28

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Oh BTW anyone here have any insight or knowedge about how Russian women think - their expectation of men ? - the sex thing in dating ..etc. Ruskie babes are rare down here.. I know nothing about their ciultural imperatives. Then again hormones and brain chemicals know no borders do they....
 

ER!C L!VE

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Standard dosages of Wellbutrin and Valium for me. To each their own. :cheer:
 

DJsomeday

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There must be something that you enjoy SO much that you forget about time&space for a period of times, including your problems. For me it's acting because i get in other ppl's skins and i think about THEIR problems not mine lol :p. Try finding that thing!, i'd love to give a more insight view but i'm not an expert on the subject.
 

Never try to read a woman's mind. It is a scary place. Ignore her confusing signals and mixed messages. Assume she is interested in you and act accordingly.

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I think that most of the guys on this site that have dealt with depression can look at Erik Erikson's 8 Stages of Development (Social and Emotional). If a person doesn't master one stage they struggle with every stage from then on and if they don't sort it out they end up miserable for their entire lives. If you read up on the stages it's pretty easy to spot where the problem is. Here is a list of the stages:

1. Learning Basic Trust Versus Basic Mistrust (Hope)
Chronologically, this is the period of infancy through the first one or two years of life. The child, well - handled, nurtured, and loved, develops trust and security and a basic optimism. Badly handled, he becomes insecure and mistrustful.

2. Learning Autonomy Versus Shame (Will)
The second psychosocial crisis, Erikson believes, occurs during early childhood, probably between about 18 months or 2 years and 3½ to 4 years of age. The "well - parented" child emerges from this stage sure of himself, elated with his new found control, and proud rather than ashamed. Autonomy is not, however, entirely synonymous with assured self - possession, initiative, and independence but, at least for children in the early part of this psychosocial crisis, includes stormy self - will, tantrums, stubbornness, and negativism. For example, one sees may 2 year olds resolutely folding their arms to prevent their mothers from holding their hands as they cross the street. Also, the sound of "NO" rings through the house or the grocery store.

3. Learning Initiative Versus Guilt (Purpose)
Erikson believes that this third psychosocial crisis occurs during what he calls the "play age," or the later preschool years (from about 3½ to, in the United States culture, entry into formal school). During it, the healthily developing child learns: (1) to imagine, to broaden his skills through active play of all sorts, including fantasy (2) to cooperate with others (3) to lead as well as to follow. Immobilized by guilt, he is: (1) fearful (2) hangs on the fringes of groups (3) continues to depend unduly on adults and (4) is restricted both in the development of play skills and in imagination.

4. Industry Versus Inferiority (Competence)
Erikson believes that the fourth psychosocial crisis is handled, for better or worse, during what he calls the "school age," presumably up to and possibly including some of junior high school. Here the child learns to master the more formal skills of life: (1) relating with peers according to rules (2) progressing from free play to play that may be elaborately structured by rules and may demand formal teamwork, such as baseball and (3) mastering social studies, reading, arithmetic. Homework is a necessity, and the need for self-discipline increases yearly. The child who, because of his successive and successful resolutions of earlier psychosocial crisis, is trusting, autonomous, and full of initiative will learn easily enough to be industrious. However, the mistrusting child will doubt the future. The shame - and guilt-filled child will experience defeat and inferiority.

5. Learning Identity Versus Identity Diffusion (Fidelity)
During the fifth psychosocial crisis (adolescence, from about 13 or 14 to about 20) the child, now an adolescent, learns how to answer satisfactorily and happily the question of "Who am I?" But even the best - adjusted of adolescents experiences some role identity diffusion: most boys and probably most girls experiment with minor delinquency; rebellion flourishes; self - doubts flood the youngster, and so on.

Erikson believes that during successful early adolescence, mature time perspective is developed; the young person acquires self-certainty as opposed to self-consciousness and self-doubt. He comes to experiment with different - usually constructive - roles rather than adopting a "negative identity" (such as delinquency). He actually anticipates achievement, and achieves, rather than being "paralyzed" by feelings of inferiority or by an inadequate time perspective. In later adolescence, clear sexual identity - manhood or womanhood - is established. The adolescent seeks leadership (someone to inspire him), and gradually develops a set of ideals (socially congruent and desirable, in the case of the successful adolescent). Erikson believes that, in our culture, adolescence affords a "psychosocial moratorium," particularly for middle - and upper-class American children. They do not yet have to "play for keeps," but can experiment, trying various roles, and thus hopefully find the one most suitable for them.

6. Learning Intimacy Versus Isolation (Love)
The successful young adult, for the first time, can experience true intimacy - the sort of intimacy that makes possible good marriage or a genuine and enduring friendship.

7. Learning Generativity Versus Self-Absorption (Care)
In adulthood, the psychosocial crisis demands generativity, both in the sense of marriage and parenthood, and in the sense of working productively and creatively.

8. Integrity Versus Despair (Wisdom)
If the other seven psychosocial crisis have been successfully resolved, the mature adult develops the peak of adjustment; integrity. He trusts, he is independent and dares the new. He works hard, has found a well - defined role in life, and has developed a self-concept with which he is happy. He can be intimate without strain, guilt, regret, or lack of realism; and he is proud of what he creates - his children, his work, or his hobbies. If one or more of the earlier psychosocial crises have not been resolved, he may view himself and his life with disgust and despair.
 

STR8UP

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ER!C L!VE said:
Standard dosages of Wellbutrin and Valium for me. To each their own. :cheer:
I'm on my third week of Welbutrin.....only noticed slight changes so far. They say it takes up to 8 weeks. How is it working for you?

I did a short course of Zoloft awhile back for social/general anxiety. It did wonders for the intended purpose, but the side effects were NASTY. Fortunately those drugs can rewire your brain, and I would say I'm a better person for having taken it.

I also have clonazepam (Klonopin, same category as Xanax, Valium) for as needed relief. I probably don't even take half what the doc gives me, but that stuff is invaluable to alleviate immediate anxiety symptoms, and it makes me sleep like a baby.

As for the whole depression thing......that's why I'm on the Welbutrin. I felt myself getting close to the breaking point with everything that is going on in my life and I didn't want to see what the bottom looked like. Hopefully it kicks in soon cause i try to avoid taking too much of the clonazepam to avoid tolerance issues.

Here's to modern medicine :up:
 

joekerr31

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man you are wyldfire.

wyldfire went on and on about those 8 stages.

you do realize that by participating in this thread it is now going to enter a downward spiral where the whole point of it gets lost.

you do realize that your mere particpation in threads destroys them right?

which is really too bad, because i was interested in this thread bringing forward some interesting ideas.
 

ER!C L!VE

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STR8UP said:
I'm on my third week of Welbutrin.....only noticed slight changes so far. They say it takes up to 8 weeks. How is it working for you?
I've been on it for about 8 years - 150mg 2x daily. I don't recall how long it took to kick in. In 8 weeks you should definitely notice it. I think it actually increases your sex drive! There are only positive sexual side effects from what I've noticed. A few other notables: My appetite decreased, so I lost body fat, I had increased energy during the day (no 3PM slow down) and I didn't have the negative reoccuring thoughts. I could also focus and think clearly. I turned my buddy who was on Prozac onto it and he loves it. Oh, and there is a generic version if you weren't already aware - Buproprion.

STR8UP said:
I also have clonazepam (Klonopin, same category as Xanax, Valium) for as needed relief. I probably don't even take half what the doc gives me, but that stuff is invaluable to alleviate immediate anxiety symptoms, and it makes me sleep like a baby.
Yep, you'll sleep well on that stuff. When I was living in a cheap hotel in downtown LA living the life of Jack Kerouac/Barfly I bought some Valium off a street dealer. After taking it, I felt like 1000 pounds were off my shoulders. I could finally talk in complete sentences without stuttering or losing my train of thought. Benzos are good to me - only issue is trying to come off them. I went off cold turkey (not wise) after being on for years.. It was a one year withdrawal... I'm back on them now and mighty happy.



STR8UP said:
As for the whole depression thing......that's why I'm on the Welbutrin. I felt myself getting close to the breaking point with everything that is going on in my life and I didn't want to see what the bottom looked like. Hopefully it kicks in soon cause i try to avoid taking too much of the clonazepam to avoid tolerance issues.

Here's to modern medicine :up:
I'm all about better living though chemistry. My friend who I mentioned in this post owns his own mortgage company and is a commercial developer. His thoughts were bringing him down and starting to fcuk with his business and personal decisions, so he got on meds. He's doing better than ever now.

Better living through chemistry :)
 

STR8UP

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ER!C L!VE said:
Benzos are good to me - only issue is trying to come off them. I went off cold turkey (not wise) after being on for years.. It was a one year withdrawal... I'm back on them now and mighty happy.
I'm not at all worried about addiction to benzos. I don't have anything that resembles cravings and I might go days at a time without taking any.

I have the majority of my pills at home, but I have a few at work just in case. I had to make a very stressful phone call the other day, and when I got off the phone I was a wreck. Popped 1/2 a pill and I was good to go.

A whole one is even better but then all I wanna do is sleep.

Good stuff. It's a shame docs seem to be afraid of them. Glad I have a good doc :)
 

iqqi

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joekerr31 said:
hey gents,

i thought i'd toss this out there for consideration. it seems one of the biggest obstacles a lot of mature men face is depression.

when we were young and full of piss and vinegar the future seemed a million miles away.

but when you get in to your 30s you have a pretty good scope on life, both the good stuff and the bad stuff.

a lot of guys get sort of depressed / defeatist in their 30s. thats why a lot of guys settle for the crabby wife i think.

I think a big problem for a lot of AFCs is actually, in part, depression.

surely most of us here have suffered the 'blues' at various times in life.

anyone have any interest perspectives on how they stay positive as life marches on?

as a drunken iq, I tried to relate, however I am DEEPLY DEPRESSED at the second, so i can't help. everything you said made sense.

my own personal goal is to go out and find fun to cheer myself up tomorrow. but if you are in a bad relationship, too abd for you. no fun 4 u til you clear that sh!t up.
 

KarmaSutra

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iqqi said:
as a drunken iq, I tried to relate, however I am DEEPLY DEPRESSED at the second, so i can't help. everything you said made sense.

my own personal goal is to go out and find fun to cheer myself up tomorrow. but if you are in a bad relationship, too abd for you. no fun 4 u til you clear that sh!t up.
Jesus Christ.

How many "drunken" posts can one idiot attention slvt make?

"I know, I'll redeem my sh!tty self worth by pretending to fvck up some spelling and feeling down on myself. Some worthless tool on a MENS forum will surely be up to tell me how great I am and worth a DP or two."

Something like that going through your fvcking mind?
 

Mr.Positive

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I find that it's ironic that we live in a society where life has never been easier, yet more and more of us are struggling with depression. There's more medication prescribed to deaden the sensation we call life.

We don't have any great challenges to face, we can live life the easy way if we want, we can order take out, we can walk 10 steps from our homes to our cars to go to some shopping mall, or walmart to buy everything we need to survive.

We can even browse the internet, participate in forums to suppliment our social lives without stepping foot outside.

Yet, the easier life gets the less fulfilling it is.

Think for a moment when you most fealt alive...when you had so much focus that you didn't question your existence, you just were in a state of action...as if you life depended upon that moment, and the moments shortly after. Nothing else mattered.

Ask the guy that just landed from jumping out of a plane at 14,000 feet how he feels. I guarantee the color of the grass he sees will be just a little more greener than what we see, that burritto he gets will taste that much better.

And that's it. That's how I stay positive. I stay positive by understanding that in my nature, I need to overcome challenges. I need obstacles to face in life. I need mountains to climb, countries to explore, and oceans to sail upon.

But that's me, and thankfully this world has unlimited things for me to experience. I have just yet begun really.

The more you understand what your nature is, the more positive you will be, and more you will fully enjoy this great gift of life that we all have...because it really is a gift, and unfortunately, it gets taken for granted all too often.
 

Knight's Cross

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Mr. P,
You are right on target. Too may people are looking for the instant gratification. If they don't get it right now, well then they must be depressed. I totally agree, life is about taking on challenges. It's about bettering oneself through overcoming ones fears. Beating obstacles. All too often I see people I know do the easy way out. Or not try at all.
As for the grass being greener after a jump, yes it is. That one I know for a fact.
KC
 

guru1000

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Depression is usually caused by low levels of serotonin or hormonal fluctuations.

Many times as a guy hits his 30's, his hormone levels begin to decrease. The hormones we are concerned about are testosterone and growth hormone. It is very important to get these levels checked as to see if this is the cause of the problem. If hormones are in the low range, it is the cause of the depression. Here are the steps to correct it:

1) Make 10 million, this will instantly send a message to your pituitary gland to produce more

2) An intense workout routine that incorporates heavy squats and deadlifts

3) A Diet high in monounstaurated fats

4) Testosterone and GH therapy (HRT)

4) Reduce stress levels as stress blunts hormonal secretion
 

Warboss Alex

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guru1000 said:
2) An intense workout routine that incorporates heavy squats and deadlifts

3) A Diet high in monounstaurated fats

4) Testosterone and GH therapy (HRT)

4) Reduce stress levels as stress blunts hormonal secretion
I like the cut of your gib but for optimal hormonal production you need saturated fats as well. Basically a 1:1:1 split between saturates, mono's and poly's.

Meditative techniques and consistent sleep patterns (try ZMA, melatonin, taurine or valerian prebed) will help combat and block cortisol.

High rep leg training is the best natural test booster I know, along with red meat and eggs.

Have at it!
 

Rudra

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jophil28 said:
Oh BTW anyone here have any insight or knowedge about how Russian women think - their expectation of men ? - the sex thing in dating ..etc. Ruskie babes are rare down here.. I know nothing about their ciultural imperatives. Then again hormones and brain chemicals know no borders do they....
They expect you to be alpha and in complete control. No news here. They expect you to foot the bill and pay for them. No discussion about this one. If you come off cheap, you´re out. Money goes to show them you´re not a loser. And if they like you, they will let you fOck their lights out. They are generally pretty pYssy generous. That doesn´t mean you don´t have to worry about their ASD, quite the opposite. Cut your sexual innuendo short, that is a clear NO to them. Basically, they are very street smart. But they want YOU to go through all the classical moves. Bring flowers, open doors, help them out of the car etc. pp. They will show up in high heels so this are not just gestures, but necessary help.

To make it short - be all the DJ and alpha you can be, and you will score. Russian chicks want you to be DJ, and they tell you upfront about it as they don´t have any feministic horse manure stacked in their heads. Only problem might be that russian guys typically are educated to be MEN. And they go through a tough school of life, Russia is not an easy place to live for most russians. So as a western rAFC you might seem pathetic to them. But I guess that won´t be your case, jophil.
 

grinder

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I was a counselor in a cushy psyc hosp and a grungy out pt clinic for 14 years. This was long ago, before Prozac.

Talk therapy was the treatment then. When the new brain drugs (serotonin reuptake inhibitors) came out all us “real” therapists were skeptical that any drug could trump traditional therapy.

Prozac obliterated our arguments and proved to be FAR better for treating depression than talking. The goal of talking was to change thought patterns. It took years and had mixed results. Prozac did it in 2 weeks. It changed thought patterns and outlook because the basic good thought patterns were already there, Prozac just lifted the cloud of depression to allow the good patterns to reemerge.

Do keep in mind that once you take a drug that alters your serotonin it is a permanent brain change. Do not expect to go off it. There is no problem staying on it for life though.

Becoming a DJ entails a level of mastery that most will never reach if their heads are not totally clear.

So I am all for taking the drugs to lift the cloud to allow you to think and feel clearly.

Personally I consider myself lucky in that, although I have had temporary boughts of depression following my son’s illness, I have never been on any medication. As I have learned my licks here I have found that I do much better totally free of any drug, alcohol included.

The principles espoused here are truly psychologically sound and tremendously empowering. There are some kernels of conduct and living that are only now emerging here that supersedes merely getting pvssy.

I laugh when occasionally an old “guru” pops in and makes a condescending comment about how the forum as “deteriorated”. What has happened is there are strands here quite literally beyond their comprehension. They just don’t get it. They accidentally stumbled on some method that worked for them and they espouse it as a universal for all men.

Getting back on topic, I think some have the impression that taking meds for depression is not “manly”, that you should just suck it up and be tough. If this could change the brain chemistry then, sure go for it. But it won’t work. Only targeted drugs can do that.
 

RedPill

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Remove cognitive dissonance from your life

One thing I've picked up from this discussion forum (not sure from where or when) was the concept of cognitive dissonance.

While it's fairly obvious that many people get over-stressed and depressed from chronic lifestyle factors - not enough exercise, fats, sleep, sunlight, sex, or periods of relaxation and reflection - I'm currently considering the idea that the root cause of most people's prolonged and destructive depression is heavy cognitive dissonance.

Live by the Doctrine of AFC or live by my own rules?

Is all this work I'm putting into my career worth it or will I one day regret that I spent so much time working?

Will my passions in life die because I spent too much time serving someone else's interests?

Am I making the right choices, even though most people strongly oppose my viewpoint?


Are the standards I've set for myself too high and unrealistic?

We're not the first generation, nor the last to deal with this:

Hamlet said:
To be or not to be, that is the question;
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them. . .​
I've learned about myself that the root cause of my own prolonged periods of action-crippling depression is a lack of integrity in the mind between evolving as *I* seek to evolve and conforming to the heavy expectations of others. These conflicts - the dissonance - cause a lack of focus, a dilution of purpose, and a weight of uncertainty that saps energy and grinds personal progress to a screeching halt. Trying to move forward in this mental environment is like driving with the hand brake applied.

If this hypothesis is correct, then the solution would be permanent removal of cognitive dissonance from the mind-state. Only then can one move forward unimpeded by the static interference of groupthink and other people's unconsidered ideas.

Nobody claimed it an easy task to create internal integrity and clarity. Failing to meet the expectations of others can carry very real consequences. It might become a threat to one's income, or jeopardize some very comfortable relationships. This is the price of getting congruent with one's self. Pay it now, and live forever free from influences you didn't choose out of your own free will.

I made a list of items causing cognitive dissonance for myself, and I'm working one-by-one to weaken and destroy the power, real or imagined, of those sources which demand that I act against my values. Try this exercise sometime and see if puts you on the path to eliminating the root causes of your depression. I'm finding it's much easier to take care of the bio-chemical problems when the psychological integrity problems have been resolved.

Kill that cognitive dissonance and see what happens.
 

STR8UP

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grinder said:
Do keep in mind that once you take a drug that alters your serotonin it is a permanent brain change. Do not expect to go off it. There is no problem staying on it for life though.
I couldn't stand the side effects (ever had a "brain zap"?) of the SSRI I took (Zoloft) so I tapered off of it over the course of a couple of weeks. No problem coming off, and I didn't revert back to my old self, so I know it did in fact "rewire my brain".

I lives with social anxiety my entire life. I thought I was just "shy" cause that's what people told me when I was a little kid. Becoming a bartender helped me a lot, but nothing ever took away the anxiety to the degree that I felt I was able to live my life. I credit the SSRI for at least taking away the hardcore symptoms of social anxiety (sweating, trembling when talking to ppl).

Getting back on topic, I think some have the impression that taking meds for depression is not “manly”, that you should just suck it up and be tough. If this could change the brain chemistry then, sure go for it. But it won’t work. Only targeted drugs can do that.
There are some things you just can't "suck it up and deal with".

Sure, you might be able to eventually get yourself through it, but what about the toll it takes on you in the meantime? Stress kills. I'm really surprised that I don't look like I have aged ten years with my stress levels and heavy work load recently.
 

Tell her a little about yourself, but not too much. Maintain some mystery. Give her something to think about and wonder about when she's at home.

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