A HUGE Weight Training Forum

[Mikeman!]

For anyone thats interested, check out:
http://209.11.101.244/forum/index.php

There is a crazzzzzzzy amount of weight training/nutrition info there. This forum is just HUGE!

 

[De La Soul]

Naw man, that ain't cool.
I guess it would be good for people who know a lot of specifics about supplements and all the rest it would be good but apart from taht...Also, what the fukk is with the *THUMBS UP* to steroids on that page! I've had friends who've taken steroids and they have not had good effects.

[This message has been edited by De La Soul (edited 04-03-2002).]

 

[DIESEL]

I think forums of that type are useful if only to get different perspectives... however you have to take everything you hear there with a grain of salt.

As to your roider friends.. they probably got ****ty gear or they didn't know what the hell they were doing. Roids (if used correctly ) work.. period. flip through any bodybuilding magazine if you don't believe me.

peace,
D

 

[De La Soul]

Sure they work...and then you can't get it up

 

[Big N]

Guess we all know what your friends' problems were, huh

 

[FekTraz]

There is nothing wrong with USING anabolic steroids, its the num-nuts like your friends you decide to ABUSE anabolic steroids. The benefits of steroids are incredible, not only can they safely, YES SAFELY put on lean muscle, although the media - the great and honest source they are - will tell you differently, but they also can boost your immune system, and have great medical benefits.

And actually De la Soul, they help you get it up, its that whole testosterone increases libido thing


------------------
******************
F*CK IT, DEAL WITH IT
- Mark Kostek


Zito Tin Ellas

-Some motha f*ckas always tryin to iceskate up hill-

AOL IM - AndroGreek T 53

 

[De La Soul]

Originally posted by FekTraz:

And actually De la Soul, they help you get it up, its that whole testosterone increases libido thing

Possibly in the short term, however in the long run it has been proven that steroids do result in physical damage. Maybe while you are using the steroids they may *help* you get an erection but, unless you want to use them all your life, (which would be extremely harmful) in the long run they can result in inability to get an erection (as well as many other things). Steroids are also carcinogens.

But hey, to anyone who wants to use them while still knowing the risks GO FOR IT! I can't stop you. Just as long as you know what the real risks are.

------------------
Smile. Eye Contact. Kino. Killer Instinct. Done Deal.

Audere est facere.

[This message has been edited by De La Soul (edited 04-10-2002).]

 

[Viroid]

Originally posted by De La Soul:
Possibly in the short term, however in the long run it has been proven that steroids do result in physical damage.[b/]

So have a lot of drugs that we take everyday, like tylenol. Your point is moot.


Maybe while you are using the steroids they may *help* you get an erection but, unless you want to use them all your life, (which would be extremely harmful) in the long run they can result in inability to get an erection (as well as many other things). Steroids are also carcinogens.

When someone takes AAS their body dosnt shut test production down forever. Theres a feedback loop. Everything goes back to normal eventually. And where did you hear AAS are carcinogens? Go do some real research on AAS, then make an educated post.

 

[FekTraz]

Thanks Viroid, again you prove to be the voice of educated reason

 

[De La Soul]

Originally posted by Viroid:


So have a lot of drugs [cause physical damage] that we take everyday, like tylenol.

Does this make it right? I might also say that killing people is right because the happens a lot. It does not justify it.

Everything goes back to normal eventually.

That's an interesting one, Viroid. Last I heard prostate cancer (as well as the many other risks which I will list below) is not something that "goes back to normal eventually".

And where did you hear AAS are carcinogens?

Does this answer your question? Read the whole article

Health Hazards (courtesy of The National Institute of Drug Abuse ):

The major side effects from abusing anabolic steroids can include liver tumors and cancer, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of skin, tissues, and body fluids), fluid retention, high blood pressure, increases in LDL (bad cholesterol), and decreases in HDL (good cholesterol). Other side effects include kidney tumors, severe acne, and trembling.

In addition, there are some gender-specific side effects:

For men--shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts, increased risk for prostate cancer.

For women--growth of facial hair, male-pattern baldness, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, enlargement of the ****oris, deepened voice.

For adolescents--growth halted prematurely through premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes. This means that adolescents risk remaining short the remainder of their lives if they take anabolic steroids before the typical adolescent growth spurt.

In addition, people who inject anabolic steroids run the added risk of contracting or transmitting HIV/AIDS or hepatitis, which causes serious damage to the liver.

Scientific research also shows that aggression and other psychiatric side effects may result from abuse of anabolic steroids. Many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, but researchers report that extreme mood swings also can occur, including manic-like symptoms leading to violence. Depression often is seen when the drugs are stopped and may contribute to dependence on anabolic steroids. Researchers report also that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.

Research also indicates that some users might turn to other drugs to alleviate some of the negative effects of anabolic steroids. For example, a study of 227 men admitted in 1999 to a private treatment center for dependence on heroin or other opioids found that 9.3 percent had abused anabolic steroids before trying any other illicit drug. Of these 9.3 percent, 86 percent first used opioids to counteract insomnia and irritability resulting from the anabolic steroids

Go do some real research on AAS, then make an educated post.

Come on, Viroid! An 'educated post'. I don't think you can get much more informed, reliable, or educated than NIDA. I would have thought the "voice of educated reason" (as you often are) would have known the risks.

Maybe I should be the one telling you to do some research before you come out and deny the facts (with FekTraz cheering you on).



[This message has been edited by De La Soul (edited 04-11-2002).]

 

[Viroid]

Does this make it right? I might also say that killing people is right because the happens a lot. It does not justify it.

Whos to say if taking steroids is right or wrong? Its niether. Dont compare steroids with homicide. homicide is not right. If you have morals against taking steroids that just plan weird.

That's an interesting one, Viroid. Last I heard prostate cancer (as well as the many other risks which I will list below) is not something that "goes back to normal eventually".

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEW STATISTICS ARE OF MEN GETTING PROSTATE CANCER?????????????

Prostate cancer is the leading cancer diagnosed among men in the United States. and the cause IS NOT KNOWN!
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/prostate.htm(All figures are for U.S.)

Annual Number of Deaths from Prostate Cancer: 32,203 (1998)
Source: National Vital Statistics Reports, Vol. 48, No. 11

Cases of Prostate Disease Reported Annually: 2.8 million (1996)
Source: Vital and Health Statistics Series 10, No. 200

Your point again, is moot.

The major side effects from abusing anabolic steroids can include liver tumors and cancer, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of skin, tissues, and body fluids), fluid retention, high blood pressure, increases in LDL (bad cholesterol), and decreases in HDL (good cholesterol). Other side effects include kidney tumors, severe acne, and trembling.

LOTS of OTC and prescription drugs do the same things.

Scientific research also shows that aggression and other psychiatric side effects may result from abuse of anabolic steroids. Many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, but researchers report that extreme mood swings also can occur, including manic-like symptoms leading to violence. Depression often is seen when the drugs are stopped and may contribute to dependence on anabolic steroids. Researchers report also that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.

STEROIDS ARE NOT PSYCHO-ACTIVE DRUGS, DAMN IT. ROID RAGE IS A MYTH! Sure, if your a dichead in real life then youll be a dichead while on roids. But if youre a cool cat, youre a cool cat.

And heres some REAL research, not just some article written by socially conditioned tards:

Tricker R, Casaburi R, Storer TW, Clevenger B, Berman N, Shirazi A,
Bhasin S. 1996 Oct. The effects of supraphysiological doses of
testosterone on angry behavior in healthy eugonadal men--a clinical
research center study. J.Clin.Endocrinol.Metab. 81(10):3754-8.

and

Burris AS, Banks SM, Carter CS, Davidson JM, Sherins RJ. 1992 Jul. A
long-term, prospective study of the physiologic and behavioral effects of
hormone replacement in untreated hypogonadal men. J.Androl. 13(4):297-304.

If you knew the real story behind "roid rage" u would not have pasted anything about it. And if you want some more references, just ask. Or better yet, you go do some research.

For example, a study of 227 men admitted in 1999 to a private treatment center for dependence on heroin or other opioids found that 9.3 percent had abused anabolic steroids before trying any other illicit drug. Of these 9.3 percent, 86 percent first used opioids to counteract insomnia and irritability resulting from the anabolic steroids

Think about that. When people abuse all sorts of drugs how can you say roids are the cause of the complications?

quote:
Come on, Viroid! An 'educated post'. I don't think you can get much more informed

YES YOU CAN. TRY searching around medline. I could care less about some article you read.

Maybe I should be the one telling you to do some research before you come out and deny the facts (with FekTraz cheering you on).

Believe me, ive done the reaserch. AND GUESS WHAT? there are no documented cases of steroids ever causing cancer. OR anyone dying from steroids. try and find one. If you can find JUST ONE, ill send you my hot 19yr old virgin sister.

If roids had short or long term side effects, dont you think youd be seeing 90% of pro athletes having complications? Not to mention Olmpians. There are no stats to confirm the "risks."

If roids were so bad for you why are some european countries going to use it as a form of birth control.

Dare i say that roids actually have health benefits? YES THEY DO! With Hormone replacement therapy and wasting diseases benefiting the most.

Have a looksee:

Hengge UR, Baumann M, et al. 1996. Oxymetholone promotes weight
gainin patients with advanced human immunodeficiency virus
(HIV-1)infection. Brit J Nutrition. 75:129-138.

and

Leifke E, Korner HC, Link TM, Berhre HM, Peters PE, Nieschlag E.
1998 Jan. Effects of testosterone replacement therapy on cortical
and trabecular bone mineral density, vertebral body area and
paraspinal muscle area in hypogonadal men. Eur.J.Endocrinol.
138(1):51-8.

and

Grinspoon S, Corcoran C, Lee K, Burrows B, Hubbard J, Katznelson L,
Walsh M, Guccione A, Cannan J, Heller H, and others. 1996 Nov. Loss
of lean body and muscle mass correlates with androgen levels in
hypogonadal men with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome and wasting.
J.Clin.Endocrinol.Metab. 81(11):4051-8.

and

Katznelson L, Finkelstein JS, Schoenfeld DA, Rosenthal DI, Anderson
EJ, Klibanski A. 1996 Dec. Increase in bone density and lean body
mass during testosterone administration in men with acquired
hypogonadism. J.Clin.Endocrinol.Metab. 81(12):4358-65.

I see no facts in your post.

So just keep being a sheep and take your daily spoonfuls of BS from the media.

Hope this helps

and

Have a nice day

 

[De La Soul]

Originally posted by Viroid:
Whos to say if taking steroids is right or wrong? Its niether. Dont compare steroids with homicide. homicide is not right. If you have morals against taking steroids that just plan weird.

You have COMPLETELY missed my point. I am not saying that I am morally opposed to steroids. I am simply showing that there are very harmful effects (YES AS WELL AS GOOD ONES) that come with steroids.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEW STATISTICS ARE OF MEN GETTING PROSTATE CANCER?????????????

Yeah I do. Your stats are fairly accurate but nevertheless IRRELEVANT. So what if cancer statistics are high? I know that as well as you do. But the statistics are not high for no reason at all. There are contributing factors, and ANABOLIC STEROID ABUSE is certainly one of them .

The major side effects from abusing anabolic steroids can include liver tumors and cancer, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of skin, tissues, and body fluids), fluid retention, high blood pressure, increases in LDL (bad cholesterol), and decreases in HDL (good cholesterol). Other side effects include kidney tumors, severe acne, and trembling. As well as:

For men--shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts, increased risk for prostate cancer.

For women--growth of facial hair, male-pattern baldness, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, enlargement of the ****oris, deepened voice.

For adolescents--growth halted prematurely through premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes. This means that adolescents risk remaining short the remainder of their lives if they take anabolic steroids before the typical adolescent growth spurt.

LOTS of OTC and prescription drugs do the same things.

Are you sure? I have not heard of safe prescription drugs causing liver cancer, jaundice, kidney tumors, liver tumors etc.
And even if they do, that doesn't make me want to use anabolic steroids anymore than I already didn't. How many people do you think are going to say, after being diagnosed with one of the above diseases: "Oh well, it doesn't matter that much cos Viroid says that can happen from prescription drugs as well."

STEROIDS ARE NOT PSYCHO-ACTIVE DRUGS, DAMN IT. ROID RAGE IS A MYTH! Sure, if your a dichead in real life then youll be a dichead while on roids. But if youre a cool cat, youre a cool cat.
And heres some REAL research, not just some article written by socially conditioned tards:
Tricker R, Casaburi R, Storer TW, Clevenger B, Berman N, Shirazi A,
Bhasin S. 1996 Oct. The effects of supraphysiological doses of
testosterone on angry behavior in healthy eugonadal men--a clinical
research center study. J.Clin.Endocrinol.Metab. 81(10):3754-8.
and
Burris AS, Banks SM, Carter CS, Davidson JM, Sherins RJ. 1992 Jul. A
long-term, prospective study of the physiologic and behavioral effects of
hormone replacement in untreated hypogonadal men. J.Androl. 13(4):297-304.

Damn, Viroid. How can you berate me for not doing proper research, even though I have checked up on sources such a the National Cancer Institute and the National Institute on Drug Abuse, and then throw that at me. Firstly, what sort of quality research says that "if your a dichead in real life then youll be a dichead while on roids. But if youre a cool cat, youre a cool cat." Wow, you've really impressed me there.

Also, what are all these sources that you've thrown at me? It looks to me as if they are studies of anabolic steroids being administered in controlled circumstances (i.e. prescribed by a doctor). THAT IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE.

Think about that. When people abuse all sorts of drugs how can you say roids are the cause of the complications?

It can be said that roids are the cause of the complications because: "9.3 percent had abused anabolic steroids before trying any other illicit drug. Of these 9.3 percent, 86 percent first used opioids to counteract insomnia and irritability resulting from the anabolic steroids." 86%! That's an extremely large percentage that only turned to opioids because of anabolic steroids.

I could care less about some article you read.

Very mature argument there. OK, I'll say the exact same thing back to you, but it won't get us anywhere. If you simply refuse to listen to my arguments based on respected studies then there's not much more I can do.

Believe me, ive done the reaserch. AND GUESS WHAT? there are no documented cases of steroids ever causing cancer. OR anyone dying from steroids. try and find one. If you can find JUST ONE, ill send you my hot 19yr old virgin sister.

I do recognise that you have probably doe research too. But there are many many cases of athletes (Flo Jo is even under a cloud) dying young from abuse of anabolic steroids and cancer rates have unrefutably increased by similar rates to (unprescribed) use of steroids. THERE IS A DEFINITE CORRELATION.

If roids had short or long term side effects, dont you think youd be seeing 90% of pro athletes having complications? Not to mention Olmpians.

Yeah I do (not 90% though, I would say only around 10% of pro athletes would use steroids, and 30% of Olympians). The most notable Olympian to have died as a result of suspected steroid abuse is Flo Jo, but I'm sure that many other athletes that you and I will never hear of have already dies from steroid abuse. I'm sure that in the next 10 to 15 years we will see a startling amount of athletes die young from steroids. The problem is (and you have used this well in your argument that I have few solid stats) is that it is nearly impossible to prove steroids are to blame, even though it is often very obvious.

If roids were so bad for you why are some european countries going to use it as a form of birth control.

Firstly, I what kind of roids? As you know, there are many different types.
Secondly, this is prescribed/administered use of steroids. I'm sure you won't be able to walk into a drug store and say "Gimme a box of your finest roids." You will have to go through tests and then you will be administered the steroids by a qualified proffesional.

Essentially, "your point is moot."

Dare i say that roids actually have health benefits? YES THEY DO! With Hormone replacement therapy and wasting diseases benefiting the most.

Agreed. But irrelevant. Once again, this is a different issue. I was sure we were discussing the effects of anabolic steroids used by a regular joe (such as a 17 year old teenager trying to bulk-up quickly). YES STEROIDS DO HAVE BENEFITS, I am not trying to hide that, but you have to weigh up the benefits with the costs.

So just keep being a sheep and take your daily spoonfuls of BS from the media.

That's not very nice, Viroid. I am not even getting my facts from the media, so don't just call me a sheep when you havn't even met me, just as I won't call you childish names.

The bottom line is that I firmly believe one argument, while you believe another. It is very hard for me to prove my case because steroid-related deaths are:

a) not well documented in easy-to-find, neatly packaged statistics.

b) very hard to prove because people who don't want to listen will always find something else to blame a death on

We could both write pages and pages of arguments and counter-arguments but it will get us nowhere. We can only really agree to disagree.



[This message has been edited by De La Soul (edited 04-11-2002).]

 

[FekTraz]

De la Soul, check out www.medibolics.com , and click the table of contents link, youll be brought to a list of links giving the abstracts to many studies done using anabolic steroids and a bunch of other ****...and for the record, im no cheerleader, im giving credit where credit is due, and thats more than i can say for dumba$$, and a final thought, USING a drug and ABUSING a drug are two very very different things.

 

[De La Soul]

Originally posted by FekTraz:
for the record, im no cheerleader, im giving credit where credit is due, and thats more than i can say for dumba$$

Well go right ahead and keep giving out your credit, I'm sure Viroid appreciates it. Me, I don't like to go through life sucking c0cks. I respect Viroid but I disagree with him on this topic.

One thing I refuse to do is to lower myself to your level in an argument like this and just throw insults.

and a final thought, USING a drug and ABUSING a drug are two very very different things.

SO TRUE! That's a point I've been trying to make througout my posts, particularly in my last post, if you read it.

 

[Viroid]

I am simply showing that there are very harmful effects (YES AS WELL AS GOOD ONES) that come with steroids.

You havent shown anything, but an article. I WANT TO SEE SOME STUDIES. Kinda like the ones I posted. Those are real studies not just articles. AND YOUR ARTICLE DOSENT EVEN HAVE REFERENCES! I shouldnt even be debating this with someone who posts articles without references.

Yeah I do. Your stats are fairly accurate but nevertheless IRRELEVANT. So what if cancer statistics are high? I know that as well as you do. But the statistics are not high for no reason at all. There are contributing factors, and ANABOLIC STEROID ABUSE is certainly one of them .

Both of my granfathers had prostate cancer, so did their bros. they didnt use roids. I want u to read this article. BTW, It has references so that you can look his statements up and see if hes telling u the truth. Heres an exerpt:

"As it stands now, sooner or later, your prostate will start to swell up like the dinner rolls momma’s baking in the oven. At best, this unwanted hypertrophy will just obstruct urine flow. At worst, it’ll develop into cancer.

In North America at least, benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) is pretty much inevitable, just like death, taxes, or the birth of some new nauseating boy band. Hell, if a pathologist autopsies just about anybody over the age of 50 — who died of something unrelated to prostate cancer — he’ll most likely find BPH or prostate cancer."

Go read it here:
http://www.testosterone.net/articles/171estro2.html

Are you sure? I have not heard of safe prescription drugs causing liver cancer, jaundice, kidney tumors, liver tumors etc.
And even if they do, that doesn't make me want to use anabolic steroids anymore than I already didn't.

Im positive. Many prescrip. drugs are not safe. You have the benzos and opiates that are much more dangerous and harmful than AAS.

How many people do you think are going to say, after being diagnosed with one of the above diseases: "Oh well, it doesn't matter that much cos Viroid says that can happen from prescription drugs as well."

They wont say a damn thing. The DR's wont either.

BECAUSE WE DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT CAUSES CANCER!

Thats why I cant understand how you can make such a crude generalzation!!

And thats pretty much the point im trying to get across. Read it again.

Damn, Viroid. How can you berate me for not doing proper research, even though I have checked up on sources such a the National Cancer Institute and the National Institute on Drug Abuse, and then throw that at me.

Because an article w/out references is not proper research. Your HS teachers shouldve taught you that. BTW, how old are U?

Firstly, what sort of quality research says that "if your a dichead in real life then youll be a dichead while on roids. But if youre a cool cat, youre a cool cat." Wow, you've really impressed me there.

Sorry, I dont research COMMON SENSE!

Also, what are all these sources that you've thrown at me?

Why dont you do a search on medline and find out for yourself?

I do recognise that you have probably doe research too. But there are many many cases of athletes (Flo Jo is even under a cloud) dying young from abuse of anabolic steroids and cancer rates have unrefutably increased by similar rates to (unprescribed) use of steroids. THERE IS A DEFINITE CORRELATION.

It cant be proved that flo jo died from steroids. BECAUSE STEROIDS HAVE NEVER SHOWN TO CAUSE CANCER! Its funny how u attribute AAS to the increased rates of cancer in our society. What about cigs? what about alcohol? what about polution? what about the phyto-chems in plastics? I see no definite correlation. If anything i see a correlation with cigs and alcohol.

Yeah I do (not 90% though, I would say only around 10% of pro athletes would use steroids, and 30% of Olympians).

GIVE ME A BREAK!

The problem is (and you have used this well in your argument that I have few solid stats) is that it is nearly impossible to prove steroids are to blame, even though it is often very obvious.

How is it obvious if you cant prove it, exactly? Your generalizations make my brain hurt.

Firstly, I what kind of roids? As you know, there are many different types.

any type of AAS will work.

Secondly, this is prescribed/administered use of steroids. I'm sure you won't be able to walk into a drug store and say "Gimme a box of your finest roids." You will have to go through tests and then you will be administered the steroids by a qualified proffesional.

Thats standard procedure for most drugs. What is your point?

The bottom line is that I firmly believe one argument, while you believe another. It is very hard for me to prove my case because steroid-related deaths are:

a) not well documented in easy-to-find, neatly packaged statistics.

b) very hard to prove

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

So, tell me how you can put a belief in something that you cant prove? Thats what the media does. thats why i made that comment. If it offended you i apologize. But you are acting like all the other sheep.







[This message has been edited by Viroid (edited 04-12-2002).]

 

[De La Soul]

OK well obviously I can't make you see my arguments the way I look at them and vice versa.
I am not going to start hunting for statistics because you will refute them anyway. When I can find some I will post again, right now I'm tired o this slanging match, we've lost the thread of the arguments anyway.
I did have a look at medline by the way but it seemed to just have a lot of links to sites supporting what I was saying (i.e. that steroids can be extremely harmful and that thtey are becoming more popular.

Also, all though we may not 'understand' cancer we still have maade progress where we can say with a certain degree of confidence that a certain cell or reaction triggers a cancer. I'm no doctor but I know we have at least enough progress to say that we can see the beginnings and basic causes of a cancer.

Oh yeah, I'm 20, how old are you?

------------------
Smile. Eye Contact. Kino. Killer Instinct. Done Deal.

Audere est facere.

 

[Viroid]

Also, all though we may not 'understand' cancer we still have maade progress where we can say with a certain degree of confidence that a certain cell or reaction triggers a cancer. I'm no doctor but I know we have at least enough progress to say that we can see the beginnings and basic causes of a cancer.

Oh yeah, I'm 20, how old are you?

[/QUOTE]

BUT we have no proof of what causes cancer. Smoking and drinking can increase your chances of getting cancer. But not everyone that smokes or drinks get cancer. Millions of people that dont smoke or drink get cancer. AND NOBODY KNOWS WHY. So, you cant say that cigs cause cancer. You cant say that drinking causes cancer. And you cant say the AAS causes cancer

Ask any knowledgeable DR(and there are some ignorant dr's) and he/she will tell you the same thing.

BTW, im 21.



------------------
People of Orphalese, beauty is life when life unveils her holy face.
But you are life and you are the veil.
Beauty is eternity gazing at itself in a mirror.
But you are eternity and you are the mirror.-Kahlil Gibran

 

[Demon]

Bump. This is just hilarious.

 

[Viroid]

Originally posted by Demon
Bump. This is just hilarious.

You just wont let some things die, huh?

 

[Ricky]

That seems to be a really popular website (39,000 members) as compared to 18,000 or so for bodybuilding.com

I just go to bodybuilding.com, but it's all really a waste of time.