A few things I was told.

[spesmilitis]

you don't need more than 3-4 grams of fish oil pills daily EVER !!!...theres guys in my gym that are 200+ lbs of of muscle who eat meat, fruits veggies, take their multi and thats it....matter of fact 100% of all healthy strong muscular people DON'T TAKE MORE THAN 2-3 Grams of omega 3's (pills) intentionally...NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND TAKES TONS UPON TONS OF FISH OIL PILLS, only fools on sosuave health and fitness.

what do you think a gram of fish oil is loaded with ??

I don't care what you do, my mind is at ease...nobody takes that much fish on a daily basis. Your not an eskimo living an eskimo lifestyle so quit trying to be one.

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/c2/Not-again-picard2.jpg

 

[spesmilitis]

Problem with all that animal protein is that it creates blood acidosis - which then leaches calcium out from your bones to restore its normal 7.4 pH. This can increase osteoporosis and kidney stone risks.

So at the very least, you need to be balancing all that meat out with a lot of alkalizing leafy greens. Something that most bodybuilders are totally ignorant of and never do.

^^^^^QFT. Randy Couture never mentioned how he able to keep fighting at his age, but the most apparent trait in his diet is A LOT of green veggies and greens supplement on top of that. He says it helps neutralize acids built up from training and gives the body optimum recovery conditions.

My skepticism of very high fish oil dosages (above 10 grams of fish oil or 3 grams omega-3's) is the many complaints about bruising from combat athletes. The bruising is caused by a blood thinning effect caused by fish oil. If we were meant to consume that much fish oil, why would it weaken our ability to prevent bruises and cuts? Maybe humans back in the day had thicker skin than we do now.

 

[Quagmire911]

It sure is confusing when this same information came from Poliquin:

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10420

I agree with Simon on this one. The equivalent of 30ml fish oil is something like 30-45g when it comes to EPA/DHA concentrations.

Read this article:

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/members/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=291

Straight of off Poliquin's homepage. Clearly stating 30-45g a day. The number one supplement.

Not much more that can be said, people can do as they wish :nono:

Quagmire

 

[Throttle]

your formula for omega-3 intake is simple: add up the amount of omega-6 in your diet, and get the ratio down to 2:1 minimum, ideally 1:1.

American diets are closer to 20:1. the eskimo slam is idiotic -- there are very few means available to Westerners looking for an affordable way to raise their omega-3 intake. poliquin's recommendations is on the high side among those who push omega-3's benefits, but he's also writing to an audience that eats a ****load of food every day.

for much more detail on this, read Susan Allport's "The Queen of Fats" (U. Cal, 2006). her rec is 10-27g of fish oil, but she's writing to a general audience (not bodybuilders) & assuming that you're making pastured (rather than corn-fed) animals & high-omega-3 eggs a regular part of your diet.

 

[mrRuckus]

This can increase osteoporosis and kidney stone risks.

.

Not according to this.

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/members/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=257

A strength athlete with a strong skeletal system from bearing hundreds of pounds on his back seems like an odd candidate for osteoporosis.

 

[Omen]

Problem with all that animal protein is that it creates blood acidosis - which then leaches calcium out from your bones to restore its normal 7.4 pH. This can increase osteoporosis and kidney stone risks.

So at the very least, you need to be balancing all that meat out with a lot of alkalizing leafy greens. Something that most bodybuilders are totally ignorant of and never do.

Not true, and tests even show this. There is no harm in the protein we eat, and the calcium being leached out of us.

I can even vouch for myself and Calcium Serum #s.

Serum calcium is a blood test to measure the amount of calcium in the blood. Serum calcium is usually measured to screen for or monitor bone diseases or calcium-regulation disorders (diseases of the parathyroid gland or kidneys).

02/2001: Calcium Serum 9.9MG/DL
01/2002: Calcium Serum 10.4MG/DL
08/2007: Calcium Serum 9.9MG/DL

Under 8.5 is low, and then COULD be concerns for more tests. The high end is 10.5, and notice that in 2002, I was almost on the high end. My kidneys are functioning fine.

And when do bodybuilders ignore veggies? If anything they eat more than anything else.

 

[Omen]

Okay, I hope you are open minded then. Cause I am about to prove you wrong

For anyone who doesn't know who Charles Poliquin is, he is someone who knows more than anyone on this board about nutrition ala weight training.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1371812

READ THAT ARTICLE-In particular the bit about "The single best supplement" two thirds down the page. I'm sorry Omen but nothing you will say can go against that.


Here is a very important extract:

"Anyone who wants to put on muscle and lose fat should be on 30-45 grams of fish oil per day. That's just three tablespoons of fish oil. It would be a pain in the ass with capsules though because that's around 45 capsules per day, but it's easy with a straight oil."

Over and out,

Quagmire

P.s.-And yes you could maybe eat a lot of fish and it could work, but for people such as myself who detest fish it is very convenient getting it in supps.

I'm not going to say Charles Poliquin doesn't know anything, cause he is VERY respected as a TRAINER.

Now his background is a BA and MSc in Exercise Phys. He has some credentials, great, and I have a BA in Exercise Science, and a Masters isn't much more than a few advanced anatomy and ECG classes and what not.

So for me, its not like he has a PhD in any single specialized category relating to nutrition, or is a leading expert like Lemon is in protein and has been studying protein for 20+ years.

Now regardless if you think he knows more than anyone on here in the way of supplements, i'm not going to say, but here is my question for him.

He claims people should take 30-45 grams of fish oil on T-Nation.

Now there is something wrong with that statement above, and i'll tell you what it is, after you see if you can tell me what is wrong with that wording. In fact its pretty huge, and if he WAS more knowledgeable he'd have caught his sentence before he wrote it.

Lets see if anyone else can guess what is wrong with it as well.

Second, like I said... I respect the guy in his strength training, and who he trains, but again, in that article, I can tell you he is wrong in this statement.

"Basically, the darker and richer the color of the food, the healthier it is. Compare blueberries to rice."

This is when he is talking about antioxidants. I can tell you this is NOT totally true and he is wrong hands down in that statement, and I can prove him wrong on that one if you'd like

Again, great guy, but its just Charles Poliquin who is one of the "Worlds best strength coaches" Notice his expertise.

 

[spesmilitis]

Not true, and tests even show this. There is no harm in the protein we eat, and the calcium being leached out of us.

I can even vouch for myself and Calcium Serum #s.

Serum calcium is a blood test to measure the amount of calcium in the blood. Serum calcium is usually measured to screen for or monitor bone diseases or calcium-regulation disorders (diseases of the parathyroid gland or kidneys).

02/2001: Calcium Serum 9.9MG/DL
01/2002: Calcium Serum 10.4MG/DL
08/2007: Calcium Serum 9.9MG/DL

Under 8.5 is low, and then COULD be concerns for more tests. The high end is 10.5, and notice that in 2002, I was almost on the high end. My kidneys are functioning fine.

And when do bodybuilders ignore veggies? If anything they eat more than anything else.

Well, unless you have a serious disorder such as monitor bone diseases, your blood calcium will stay constant. Your body regulates serum calcium by leaching calcium form the bones. I don't think wayword was negging meat, but promoting green veggies. Its sorta like saying saturated fats need to be balanced with monosaturated. Also, I wouldn't say veggies are ignored, but not consumed as much as they should be. A decent amount is a serving at every meal
( so around 6x a day). Some athletes eat a strong serving at every meal and take greens supplement on top of that.

for much more detail on this, read Susan Allport's "The Queen of Fats" (U. Cal, 2006). her rec is 10-27g of fish oil, but she's writing to a general audience (not bodybuilders) & assuming that you're making pastured (rather than corn-fed) animals & high-omega-3 eggs a regular part of your diet.

Dam, I have to buy the book. I'll read at Boarders next time I go. Anyways, if its not too much trouble, could you answer this question:
Why would humans, who evolved on the savannahs of Africa, require the fats found in cold-water fish?
I got this question from http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10264/10264.interview.html

This is when he is talking about antioxidants. I can tell you this is NOT totally true and he is wrong hands down in that statement, and I can prove him wrong on that one if you'd like

Go for it *thumbs up*

 

[Throttle]

Why would humans, who evolved on the savannahs of Africa, require the fats found in cold-water fish?

well it's a long answer that she goes into in great depth (and others have covered it, most notably Michael Pollan in "The Omnivore's Dilemma"), but a quick sketch:

essentially, those omega-3 fats are also found in the African savannahs, in leaves, leafy greens, grass & plant grazing herbivores (and the carnivores who love to eat them), and insects.

whereas in the old joke a panda bear eats shoots and leaves, we have switched our diets over almost entirely to grains, seeds, seed oils (all of these thanks to agriculture) and, worse, corn & soy fed animals (few of us eat wild meat or pastured meat, let alone carnivores or insects). All of these food sources way over-represent omega-6 compared to omega-3. Also, omega-3s go rancid quickly, so the food industry has long had incentives to minimize omega-3 content in processed food.

thanks to the mess that is industrialized agriculture, the cheapest way to get that omega-3 back is in the form of fish oil. it's pretty clear that this gives some (though not necessarily all) of the benefits you would get from eating pre-industrial food sources.

 

[Omen]

Go for it *thumbs up*

Assuming Poliquin is talking about the ORAC value of items, he is wrong. Just because the item is darker, doesn't mean its ORAC value is higher, nor does it mean that particular item has the best of everything as well.

For instance take blueberry. Awesome fruit, and it has an ORAC of around 400/g

Green Tea for instance has roughly 1,000 ORAC/gram

The berry from the coffee plant (that use to be thrown away) which is RED and looks like a cherry has about 15,000 ORAC per gram of fruit.

Onion has about 5,000 ORAC/gram
Krill Oil is about 378 ORAC/gram
Pomegranate is about 2,500 ORAC
Raspberry about 800 ORAC/gram

Now you may find some variances in all of those, but as you can see the blueberry is NOT the highest.

Now, you cant JUST go by ORAC for health reasons because ORAC doesn't represent the chemical structure of each item. What is in one, isn't always in the other.

For instance you take Grape Seed Extract and get Resveratrol.

The berry from the coffee plant is high in Chlorogenic, Caffeic, and Ferulic Acid, whereas Green Tea, and grapes are high in Proanthocyanidins
Green Tea and the like are loaded with EGCG

So also when we talk fruits and veggies, we also have to look at what else is to it besides JUST ORAC. ORAC can help but is not the whole picture. So Poliquin saying the darker the fruit the better, is not correct in the least bit. Brussel sprouts are green and a plum is purple. Brussel sprouts ORAC wise are higher than a plum.

This is why it is best to get a combo of MANY fruits and veggies because though prunes are very high as is the blueberry and other fruits and veggies, just by eating one or two of the highest fruits doesn't mean much in the way of the whole picture. So if you can get a combo of many items, go for it. The best is to still eat your REAL fruits and veggies, but there is no harm in adding an addition scoop of greens in the mix from a powder here and there or a berry/fruit blend as well.

spesmilitis

 

[mrRuckus]

I don't think wayword was negging meat, but promoting green veggies.

It doesn't do anyone any good to promote things for the wrong reasons because when those wrong reasons come to light it sheds doubt on all the true reasons.

 

[SmoothTalker]

Another thing you guys must remember is that Omega 3's are extremely prone to oxidation. There have been studies that found even many 'quality' fish oils to contain the harmful oxidized fish oil. This is prior to their best before date, and these are capsules, where the oil is barely even exposed to oxygen.

I imagine that just a bottle of fish oil, where it's constantly exposed to oxygen, would oxidize even faster.

This oxidized fish oil is very bad for you, and promotes things like inflammation and artery clogging, exactly the opposite of what good fish oil is supposed to do.

Now in the usual dose of 2-3 grams a day, the body is able to handle this, though it's been found that taking fish oil, even if its packaged with vitamin E, can lower your body's vitamin E levels (it's used up as an antioxidant for the oxidized fish oil). It's been found that taking extra vitamin E can counteract this decrease.

But we're talking doses 15-20 TIMES less then what this guy is suggesting. Are you taking 20 times more antioxidants then the average person to compensate? I doubt it, and if you are, it'll probably cause other problems on top of that.

Don't get me wrong, I love fish oil, and have been taking my 3-4 grams daily for years, but 45 grams is just crazy. MAYBE if it was eaten straight from a fresh raw fish like the eskimos, before it had time to start oxidizing, but you must realize that commercial fish oil has been standing on shelves somewhere for at least several months before getting to you.

 

[spesmilitis]

It doesn't do anyone any good to promote things for the wrong reasons because when those wrong reasons come to light it sheds doubt on all the true reasons.

Well, from what I've seen, its true what he said about animal protein causing acidity. In fact, eggs and dairy are also acidic. All protein dense foods are acidic. You can look it up. However, the problem is not reducing protein as the benefits of high protein intake has been proven beyond a doubt. The problem is not balancing protein intake with alkaline-forming foods such as vegetables. Care needs to be taken when you consume high amounts of any macronutrient (balancing manosaturated with saturated, adequate water, carb timing, ect).

From
http://www.naturalfoodsmerchandiser.com/asp/articleDisplay.asp?strArticleId=1479&strSite=NFMSite

"For proper long-term balance, NAE must be buffered with diet-derived alkaline agents (the previously mentioned minerals). When not in the diet, they are taken from the body.13 Studies show that some 50 mEq (milliequivalent) of metabolic acids per day can be neutralized by an ideal diet of fruits and vegetables.14 When such consumption is reduced, the body can buffer less acid without calling on alkaline reserves. By the same token, when protein intake is more than 60 g/day, more acid is produced and more reserves are needed.3 Today, Americans’ daily NAE is commonly two to four times higher than this standard 50 mEq buffering potential.1 Thus, unless supplemented, all excess acid must be buffered at the expense of bodily
reserves."

"The bones contain a sizeable buffer reservoir and are thus a primary source of alkalizing minerals. If the reservoir is not replenished, studies repeatedly confirm that bone responds to over-acidity by dissolving its basic buffering mineral salts. This is because bone is sensitive to small changes in pH."

"A study of people consuming animal protein vs. vegetarian diets demonstrates that calcium is lost in acidic conditions. Although both diets contained the same amounts of total protein, calcium, potassium, sodium and phosphorus, researchers found that urinary pH was more acidic and NAE was 27 mEq/day higher in those consuming animal protein. Additionally, daily urinary calcium excretion was 47 mg higher.19 Higher protein intake would lead to even greater losses."

"Armed with all this data, what is the best path to preventing chronic metabolic acidosis? Researchers recommend adequate fruit and vegetable intake, with an emphasis on plant foods rich in complex carbohydrates and various micronutrients."

"Dietary phosphates are commonly found in carbonated drinks and animal protein."

"Vegetables and most (but not all) fruits are alkaline-forming. Acid-ash foods are those that contain chloride, iron, phosphorus or sulfur, minerals that form acid compounds. These include phosphorus-rich foods such as meat, fish, poultry, legumes and grains, as well as mustard and eggs, which contain sulfur."

 

[simon]

Another thing you guys must remember is that Omega 3's are extremely prone to oxidation. There have been studies that found even many 'quality' fish oils to contain the harmful oxidized fish oil. This is prior to their best before date, and these are capsules, where the oil is barely even exposed to oxygen.

I imagine that just a bottle of fish oil, where it's constantly exposed to oxygen, would oxidize even faster.

This oxidized fish oil is very bad for you, and promotes things like inflammation and artery clogging, exactly the opposite of what good fish oil is supposed to do.

Which is even more reason to use a brand of fish oil that is protected from oxidation both during and after processing, (monitoring of peroxide levels, nitrogen flushing, dark coloured bottle, dark conditions, refrigeration, rosemary extract, vitamin C) such as Carlson's or Nordic Naturals etc. etc.

 

[wayword]

Not true, and tests even show this. There is no harm in the protein we eat, and the calcium being leached out of us.

BS. There are plenty of studies that suggest otherwise...although I wouldn't necessarily say fully-conclusive, since so many other variables are always involved.

A series of studies from the Cornell-China-Oxford Project on Nutrition, Health and Environment, by nutritional biochemist T. Colin Campbell and his colleagues, conclude that reducing meat intake reduces the risk of losing bone density. Osteoporosis is a condition, usually associated with aging, in which bone density decreases, making people susceptible to breaks and fractures.

Whether dairy products offer protection from osteoporosis, however, is still undetermined, according to the researchers. If dairy products are consumed in a diet high in animal protein, any potential benefit for increased bone density would be undermined. That's because animal protein, including that from dairy products, may leach more calcium from the bones than is ingested, said Campbell, professor of nutritional biochemistry at Cornell and director of the Cornell-China-Oxford Project, the most comprehensive project on diet and disease ever conducted.

"This phenomenon could explain why Americans, who ingest much higher levels of calcium, have much higher rates of osteoporosis and hip fractures compared with many Chinese and other Asians who consume few dairy products and ingest low amounts of calcium," Campbell said. Hip fractures in the United States, for example, are approximately five times more frequent than in China.

Analyses of these data suggest that increased levels of animal-based proteins, including protein from dairy products, "almost certainly contribute to a significant loss of bone calcium while vegetable-based diets clearly protect against bone loss," Campbell reported.

"Vegetarians obtain plenty of calcium and appear to have higher rates of bone density, which predispose them to lower rates of osteoporosis," said Campbell

Daily physical exercise helped protect bone health in both pre- and postmenopausal women (OI).

"Although dietary calcium intake is most often the focus of nutritional recommendations for osteoporosis, what's important is the calcium balance, not just calcium intake," Parpia stressed. "This is also another case in which just looking at a single nutrient does not tell the whole story. Rather, you have to consider the entire diet."

Dr. Hostetter says that, in some people, a diet high in protein may lead to kidney stones because extra protein causes calcium to be excreted from the body, raising calcium levels in the urine.

"The men also restricted their intake of animal protein and salt, which may explain why they had fewer stones."

So while it's hard to isolate single variables and link them directly to problems...current research and logic suggests that:

- Animal protein causes blood acidosis - which leaches calcium from bones and thus reduces bone density. This may somehow also cause the increased formation of calcium-oxalate kidney stones.

- Eating other foods like leafy greens alkalizes your blood and thus prevents calcium from being leached from your bones.

- Exercise can boost bone density.

Therefore, when you sum up these 3 variables - your net result becomes a + or - balance in skeletal calcium retention. Ideally then, you would want to increase calcium intake, leafy greens & exercise, while not eating excessive animal protein to offset that buffer.

 

[Omen]

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25#B96

Conclusion

Although excessive protein intake remains a health concern in individuals with pre-existing renal disease, the literature lacks significant research demonstrating a link between protein intake and the initiation or progression of renal disease in healthy individuals. More importantly, evidence suggests that protein-induced changes in renal function are likely a normal adaptative mechanism well within the functional limits of a healthy kidney. Without question, long-term studies are needed to clarify the scant evidence currently available regarding this relationship. At present, there is not sufficient proof to warrant public health directives aimed at restricting dietary protein intake in healthy adults for the purpose of preserving renal function.

 

[Quagmire911]

Well I guess myself and others are going to be guinea pigs to see what 2g per pound does to the human body...

 

[Omen]

Well I guess myself and others are going to be guinea pigs to see what 2g per pound does to the human body...

Some already have been, but just not recorded in a lab setting obviously. If your 30 or 40 and have been taking 1-1.25g for the past 10-20 years, and your kidneys are fine and you've never had a kidney stone, then that shows proof right there. Now how many people have blood work done I dont know, but i've had 3 tests before, and so far the farthest apart has been 7 years almost, and ALL of my vaules 7yrs ago and now are about the same.

Now I had been training 3 or 4 years before my first blood test, so i've been one myself for about 11yrs, and all systems are good to go. My intake is not 2g per day, and more along the lines of 1-1.25, so I cant vouce for the 2g point. Some days may have been just cause I ate more than other days or had more protein foods. Today its about 1.45g/lb as of now, and the day isn't over. That chicken breast I ate was a whopping 44g, so my intake today is goig to be higher, with that and my combo mix shake. I am now concentrating on more carbs since the protein is beyond fine. I usually track % and calories.

Anyways, i'm always a guinea pig I just make sure i'm always having tests done, and I even have test levels and thyroid checked as well. What's nice is right now I only pay $14 for a full profile, so I get them done a few times now.

 

[spesmilitis]

I doubt anyone has to worry about bone issues. The calcium leaching issues are probably offset by the increase in bone density that occurs through strength training. Strength athletes are not known for having bone problems.

I have a feeling that any problems related to high protein consumption (up to 2g/lbs) won't be to significant. I'm not to sure though. Anyways, I think all it does is create some conditions that may not be optimal for the body, but we can offset those conditions by drinking plenty of water, eating lots of fruits and veggies, and making sure to get all the right micronutrients.