A Crossroads

[ebracer05]

Hey guys, I need to make some important decisions. I am going to write this in a very honest way because that is the only way I will get any quality feedback... I just ask that you guys don't flame me.

To start, I think I know what I need to do but I don't have the b@lls to do it.

I haven't mentioned this before on the boards, but I am engaged. I have a bachelor's degree and am going to medical school this fall. I am supposed to get married sometime this summer.

There are a lot of really great things about my fiance and I love her. I have said in the past that she does everything the way she is supposed to as a traditional woman, pretty much like what guys who leave the US to find a woman are looking for. It's an accurate statement and probably a result of her Mennonite background and very traditional/conservative views.

My problem is that she isn't a virgin. She has had sex with 2 other guys.

She's very pretty, we get a long really well, in every area except this I am totally satisfied. But for me, this is a big issue. It's something I have tried to accept and it's something I keep coming back to. It bothers me because of the emotional and physical bonding experience it represents with other men. I'm sure you are all familiar with what all of that means.

I feel like I although I already have something good, I feel like I should be able to do better still. If we were just going to be moving in with each other or something, it wouldn't matter. But for marriage? I don't know how I am going to accept that if I haven't been able to at this point.

My fear is that I am aware of the supremely low quality present in pretty much all women nowadays. I had to find, attract, and screen a lot... a lot of girls before I found my fiance. The thought of having to start that process over again coupled with the risk of leaving what is already a pretty good thing when I may not find anything better scares me. Maybe this is a limiting belief, but I really think it would be very hard to find someone with a similar set of beliefs, beauty, personality, ect to my fiance... who is also a virgin. I mean, so what if I found a virgin girl who is significantly less attractive, or who has some other major deficit... am I really any better off? No.

So I really legitimately am struggling with this. Some guys seem to think this is a trivial issue and other guys don't. I'm one of the one's who don't. I've always felt this way and I guess it should have been something I screened for in the early phases of getting to know a girl. But this is where I am and I'd like some perspective. I look at this as a serious decision because I have a strong investment in this relationship and no desire to destroy it cavalierly. On the other hand, I also have no desire to accept 2nd best or anything less than what I am worth/capable of attracting. This is my life and it would be silly to short sell it.

Anyways, that's really about it.

EDIT - after some consideration, I thought it was worth noting to say that this is not all about virginity. I had sex with a virgin and hated the girl. Really, the only reason I pursued her was because she was physically attractive and a virgin. The point is that I feel the virginity is something I expect from someone who would be my wife, but being a virgin alone is not sufficient qualification. I had sex with the virgin girl I dated twice and never spoke to her again after the 2nd time.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I understand how you feel. I'm sure that most here will not.

I'm in the same dilemma. The thought of these women carrying with them men from the past is disgusting. Man is the giver, and woman the receiver, and that which she receives, she absorbs and carries forever, both physically and spiritually.

I guess you need to weigh your pros and cons and choose the lesser of the evils. I would also consider getting advice from people you know in RL, because this is a rough neighborhood and you're probably going to get a lot of "Only two? What's the problem?"

I find your edit to be completely contradictory. Perhaps I don't understand what you're saying.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

My problem is that she isn't a virgin. She has had sex with 2 other guys.....

... I really think it would be very hard to find someone with a similar set of beliefs, beauty, personality, ect to my fiance... who is also a virgin.

I'm not going to try and guess your race, because that one's obvious.

I had sex with the virgin girl I dated twice and never spoke to her again after the 2nd time.

Well, you really fvcked it up for the next guy didn't ya?

I had sex with a virgin and hated the girl. Really, the only reason I pursued her was because she was physically attractive and a virgin.

eh...just sounds like you're a selfish prick who's too into himself.

 

[trent_afc]

"Only two? What's the problem?"

This.

 

[glass half full]

I understand how you feel. I'm sure that most here will not.

I'm in the same dilemma. The thought of these women carrying with them men from the past is disgusting. Man is the giver, and woman the receiver, and that which she receives, she absorbs and carries forever, both physically and spiritually.

I guess you need to weigh your pros and cons and choose the lesser of the evils. I would also consider getting advice from people you know in RL, because this is a rough neighborhood and you're probably going to get a lot of "Only two? What's the problem?"

I find your edit to be completely contradictory. Perhaps I don't understand what you're saying.

I do understand your dilemma, like Smasher does. It hurts the soul to think of the 'other men" thing, in my experience because it always hangs over your head somehow in your relationship with her. It's ok if they make comparisons, or just talk about their past. But when we do, they get suspicious and turn on us, silently, in their minds. They can be cunningly evil at that.
On the other hand, finding a woman who hasn't been with someone else is like finding a "golden" needle in a hay mound. And I understand your latest point too, the pressure of a young man to "score" with someone. But she won't see it that way, women never do. Only if it were her own son talking about it, would she understand. I'm sorry, I really don't know what to say, but good luck.

I'm not going to try and guess your race, because that one's obvious.

Is that really necessary? If the shoe was on the other foot, it wouldn't fly, now would it?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Here's a question for you:

Is her not being a virgin the REAL issue?

Or is it that after having spent all that time, with all those women, all that experience, that will even be MORE ENHANCED after finishing medical school (dramatically increasing your "SMV" Medical Degree + More Experience than the average guy)?

Often times what we THINK is the real reason we want to do or don't want to do something is not the REAL reason.

If she were EXACTLY the way she were now, but a virgin, would you get married WITHOUT ANY HESITATION?

Or would you still have doubts?

 

[ebracer05]

If she were EXACTLY the way she were now, but a virgin, would you get married WITHOUT ANY HESITATION?

Or would you still have doubts?

I feel like I can say that I would have absolutely zero hesitation about marriage with her if she were a virgin. There is no question.

Atom, I made that edit because I did not want to get responses suggesting that the only thing I'm looking for is a virgin and nothing else. That is one quality of several I want... it alone is not enough. My problem is figuring out whether everything else is enough in the absence of that quality.

This is a big deal to me and I'm not going to lie and say there isn't an element of insecurity - when there is an issue you feel means something, you will always be insecure simply because the issue represents risk. It's not just about those 2 other guys and their imprinting on her, ect. It's also about her compromised ability to pair bond with me and my ability to imprint on her. It's like, its this good now, how much better would be it without that baggage?

You're right, I am a good looking guy, in shape, not the age my profile says but still young, who will be a doctor. I think we all know that being a doctor isn't a magic ticket to riches, but society still has a belief that doctor = money + status.

This issue bothers me quite a bit and I feel like I have enough value that I shouldn't have to deal with this or feel like I need to settle. I'm worth more than having to put up with what I consider a legitimate flaw for the rest of my life.

But then, my dad and other real life mentors have told me that you will never find a custom fit in an off the rack world and there will likely be something about your partner you'll have to accept, and I think I believe that. Despite the research out there that shows the detrimental effects of sex with men other than a woman's husband pre-marriage, I don't hold a deterministic attitude that it's impossible to have a happy life together even if the girl was a slut. I think it just means there is a much higher risk of failure.

But am I right here in my thinking that by virtue of my value alone, it should preclude me from having to stew about something like this? I mean, what's the difference between virginity and body fat? Some guys prefer heavier girls. I don't. They do. One thing I want in a spouse is a virgin. It's what I prefer. I get that the social programming we're subjected to on a daily basis makes that statement sound unreasonable and informs responses such as

eh...just sounds like you're a selfish prick who's too into himself.

Because of my answer to taiyuu_otoko's question, I feel like this is a matter to be considered very carefully. When I say I don't know what to do, I really mean it... I am not saying I know I should walk but I just don't have the balls. If I realized I needed to walk, I think it would be hard to get the balls to do it and I don't know that I have them right now. But while I realize that is a possibility, I am not sure.

 

[Die Hard]

Guy, suppose you leave this woman... Do you really think there is a big chance of finding another good woman who is still a virgin? If you really think this is very possible, then dump this one and go for it!!

But if you don't believe there is a big chance of finding another good woman who is also a virgin, then you should ne happy with what you got right now. I assume you are from a non-western culture, where women are still urged to remain virgins until they marry, but when you consider things from the perspective of western civilization, then two sexual partners is a really low amount for a woman and you should consider yourself lucky!

 

[The Duke]

There is a lot of truth to this:
my dad and other real life mentors have told me that you will never find a custom fit in an off the rack world and there will likely be something about your partner you'll have to accept

I think I would try and address why you are so adamant about a virgin. Do you feel guilty about what you have done in your past?

And why does virginity take precedence over all the other qualities a good woman should posess. Seems like you have pedastalized "virginity".

Please do this girl a favor, don't marry her and get some therapy so you can get to the bottom of your issues.

You come across as a person that lives in a fantasy world and wants everything perfect to suit your own desires.

If I was this girl, I'd say fuhk you and find me a guy that was already a doctor. If she's hot, had 2 sechs partners, conservative, not crazy, comes from a strong family, and in her 20's then she has way more SMV than you do. That is very very rare. If you had more experience with women you would realize this and you wouldn't hold the virginity issue against her.

 

[pierce_r]

You have a better chance of being abducted by aliens than marrying a virgin. You would be insane to hold out for one.

I don't care if a girl has slept with 20 guys. As long as it wasn't all in a row.

Knowing what I now know, having been married for a long time and now widowed, I'd go for it if you love her.

I touched on this before, but it's relevant, here.

There's an expectation in our society that young people should marry early and then build a life together through struggle. You will have a lot of stress, very little money, and crushing debt for the first several years of your marriage.

The positive side of this is that, if you two can get through the tough times together, then when your career takes off it will be comparatively smooth sailing. Or so you hope. That could also be when she divorces you and takes half your stuff and the kids. You're rolling the dice, but that's life.

If you wait until you're older -- until you have serious SMV as a single doctor -- whatever relationship you build after that won't have that bedrock of "having made it through the tough times."

Maybe that's okay.

Here's the thing, though. Some girls want that struggle. They will feel like they're missing out on a formative period in life, a social constant that makes them fit in. That's one of the biggest glitches with pulling young tail: young girls are very groupthink-minded. They want the experiences that their friends have had, so that they fit in. You have to get them to step outside the accepted norm, and that takes some effort. The generation 20 years behind me is much different than mine. The majority are herd animals.

I know more women in their early 20's who've gone skydiving than women in their early 20's who've dated a man in his late 30's or 40's.

You will probably not get a young woman (young enough to be a virgin or even anywhere close) as a long-term life partner when you're older. It just doesn't happen.

 

[The Duke]

And why are you trying to get married right now? Why not wait until after you are done with residency/fellowship?

 

[Colossus]

I feel like I can speak with some qualification here since I am dating a virgin, and I am pretty outspoken about female virginity in general.

However, most guys here do not agree, and the amount of sexual partners a girl has had gets minimized in the grand scheme. I think that is in part because of the rarity and unlikelihood that any guy is going to find one, much less one with other quality attributes as well.

So as much as I am a proponent of virgins, I think that throwing away an otherwise good relationship because of 2 past sexual partners is a bold and possibly regrettable move. And I totally understand the emotional bonding and imprinting concerns...they are legit. But you have to weigh things out here.

On another, more important note, I don't think it is a great plan for you to get married before medical school, residency, and fellowship. I really don't. No woman is going to be able to tolerate the level of absence and necessary ignoring you will have to do to get through the next 8-10 years of your life. Personally, based on my own experience in PA school which essentially mirrors med school for two years, I think you are asking for problems. I had classmates who were married, and are still married, so it CAN work, it's just a lot of extra stress on the relationship and you absolutely cannot be with an emotionally needy woman or she will cheat on you. They don't get it, and they cant handle the perceived abandonment.

But back to the virgin thing, you gotta sh!t or get off the pot man. You've been hem-hawing on this girl on and off for years, and this virginity thing keeps gnawing at you. Face it: you have doubts and you are about to marry someone you have doubts about. Read that again and think about it. If you decide you MUST marry a virgin, then prepare yourself for a potentially long and lonesome road of searching.

Only you really know if you can accept her past and move on with her, but you better be 110% over it before you marry this girl.

 

[SamTheHobit]

I just gotta say that non virgin women are "broken" for marriage.

That's all.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I feel like I can speak with some qualification here since I am dating a virgin, and I am pretty outspoken about female virginity in general.

Colossus, can you give me the url of the supply house where you got yours? Or was it a brick & mortar facility?

Regardless, I'm prepared to pay big for an unsoiled, comely lass.

 

[Colossus]

Haha I wish I could. I'd have to say she is a cottage product....and her model is out of production!!

I'm still baffled as to how she made it 25 years without so much as a sprinkling of jizz on her. Cynics may say there is no way I could know, and they are right in a way, but there is a saying some 3,000 years old: You will know a tree by it's fruit.

 

[ebracer05]

Thanks for the replies everyone. What hit me the most is:

But back to the virgin thing, you gotta sh!t or get off the pot man. You've been hem-hawing on this girl on and off for years, and this virginity thing keeps gnawing at you. Face it: you have doubts and you are about to marry someone you have doubts about. Read that again and think about it. If you decide you MUST marry a virgin, then prepare yourself for a potentially long and lonesome road of searching.

There is a component to my personality that has been useful in some ways and destructive in others - I want the best I can get. Its helped me in life, from getting good deals when I buy something to (in general) doing the best I can at a task, and as far as major challenges go, I have always been successful except for one time. The downside of that is that I tend to over-analyze things and am overcritical. I have considered your bolded point quite a bit and I don't want to give the impression that I am not thinking about this. I know I said I'm supposed to get married this summer but we haven't set a date, and this is the biggest reason why. I don't want to set a date for something as important as marriage if I feel conflicted about it.

I don't want to get side tracked on the issue of getting married before or after I've finished residency but want to say that I have considered it for a while. There are legitimate pros and cons to either possibility. I say this mindful that its opening me up to potential flaming, but I'm not going to live with a girl I'm not married to. It's not all a function of my faith, part of the reason is that with some limited exception, I think cohabitation is a bad idea. I'm going to be moving pretty far away to complete medical school and am not participating in a 4+ year long LTR. It's just not happening. It is a tough situation because what do we do? Move out of state together but live separately and rack up more debt than necessary? Move out of state and live together and get married 4 years later? Well that doesn't make much sense to me. If I'll get married in 4 years but live together now, why not just get married?

I have expressed the concerns I have about medical school and marriage to my father who is a doctor and familiar with the things in the manosphere. I've talked to a few other older men. No one is telling me its going to be easy, but given the dynamics of this situation, the council they have given me is to get married. My dad in particular knows the girl pretty well and while he acknowledges it will be difficult and a big adjustment for both of us, he isn't concerned about her cheating, abandoning ship, ect. And lest I be too confident in my assessment, I'm not either.

So much for not getting on a rabbit trail.

Back on topic, I don't think I'm pedestalling the issue of virginity. One thing I take big issue with on this website is the willingness of some members to cite any male's realized and legitimate expectation(s) of a woman "pedestalling". I know why it has become like this, because AFC's fantasize about women without getting to know them, fall in love with qualities they want to believe are present and probably aren't, and become sorely disappointed, including in the off chance that they actually attract the girl. In that case, pedestalling is bad.

But being happy about or seeking a high quality trait in a woman is not bad. Frankly, it would behoove men to consider what they are screening their women for and why and begin to "pedestal" good qualities. We all do that with physical appearance and so long as the poster doesn't write like an AFC, no one seems to care. Guys, there are a lot more important things to consider about a woman than her personal appearance and this thread is about one of those considerations.

Virginity/sexual partner count is a lot more important than a lot of guys understand. I don't know if they diminish its importance because they realize on some level, the reality of finding a virgin is somewhat of a pipe dream, so they live in denial. I don't know if they are bitter. I don't know what it is, but you don't have to look hard to find legitimate empirical evidence that when a woman has sex with a man, it fundamentally changes her.

If virginity wasn't so important, would these young girls be able to auction their first time off for millions of dollars?

Male virginity on the other hand is not very important, I don't think. Not just because the one guy who tried to sell his received very small offers, but I feel like its just obvious. If you've paid attention to anything you've learned on this or other sites like it, this shouldn't be hard to understand.

That being said, perhaps a lesson I need to learn is to accept that life is not always perfect and it is possible to enjoy it despite that. I agree with Colossus that ditching any otherwise great relationship because of 2 previous sexual partners is a bold move. In this case, I think bold means more of a brash, probably foolish move. When I think about this in terms of odds, I don't think there are many scenarios where I will do better. So I guess that answers my question.

 

[pierce_r]

Virginity/sexual partner count is a lot more important than a lot of guys understand. I don't know if they diminish its importance because they realize on some level, the reality of finding a virgin is somewhat of a pipe dream, so they live in denial. I don't know if they are bitter. I don't know what it is, but you don't have to look hard to find legitimate empirical evidence that when a woman has sex with a man, it fundamentally changes her.

If virginity wasn't so important, would these young girls be able to auction their first time off for millions of dollars?

This doesn't happen in the world we live in. I'm sorry, brother, but it doesn't happen, and it doesn't matter. Not in an era where 12-year-olds are sexting each other and 14-year-olds are determining their own sexual orientation. Hell, my brother found Brazzers in his 10-year-old son's browser cookies.

Healthy sexual experience doesn't change a damned thing about a woman except that it gives the next guy competition. So man the **** up and get better in bed.

Move to some backwards developing nation if you expect virginity at marriage. In the developed, forward-thinking, real, 21st-Century Western world, the concept is ridiculous.

I'm not saying they don't exist; I'm saying that holding out for a virgin, or dumping a woman you love because she's not a virgin, is retarded. If you really think it's that important -- if prior penis is that big of a threat to you that you'd mold your life around fear of it -- seek professional help.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Haha I wish I could. I'd have to say she is a cottage product....and her model is out of production!!

I'm still baffled as to how she made it 25 years without so much as a sprinkling of jizz on her. Cynics may say there is no way I could know, and they are right in a way, but there is a saying some 3,000 years old: You will know a tree by it's fruit.

Would you consider selling?

The only trees I've been felling have a hella lot of axe marks in them.

At this stage, if I could find one I would overlook an awful lot of other stuff. I will never be able to do "fat", LOL, but I could deal with less than perfect face, teeth etc. for an unsoiled wench. Does she have a spinster older sister with the same values? How about her mom? Oh, wait...

 

[VikingKing]

2 is a very low number. I honestly think your nervous about making this type of legal and financial commitment, especially with what you know.

How old are you?

 

[Colossus]

I'm not saying they don't exist; I'm saying that holding out for a virgin, or dumping a woman you love because she's not a virgin, is retarded.

I enjoyed your reply eBracer and you make plenty of cogent points as usual. Pierce's reply above here is the truth, though.

Like I said, I totally get the virginity thing and I am 100% on board with you that it is a priceless attribute. However, you don't NEED a virgin to be happy, and perhaps more importantly---they are about as common as unicorns. That is a big gamble.

So I'd just weigh it out if dropping her is really worth the risk. I think it's a crazy risk, especially given she has such a low partner count. But remember what I said about the doubts thing; if you cant shake them, it's time to saddle up and ride off into the unknown. Marriage has so many risks for men that it is plain unconscionable to to it without a crystal clear head and heart about the girl.



Oh and regarding the pre vs. post residency marriage thing, I can see your situation here. In this context it probably does make more sense to do it beforehand, given your beliefs, logistics, etc.