A Buyers' Market: Men Propose, Women Dispose

[Dongfu]

That's actually kind of a contradiction. If buyers are less likely to buy, fewer of them will buy. Then that means there will be less buyers than sellers. If the number of potential buyers drops, then the sellers will lower their prices until all of them wind up selling their goods.

But your comparison (girls to unwilling buyers) assumes that girls are less interesting in coupling than guys, which I don't think is really the case.

The reason guys have trouble is because girls want MEN, and very few males are actually men these days. We have probably an even number of obese people among both genders, but among the healthy individuals, the women still maintain their sexuality while the men give it up. The sexes are designed in different ways: Women can stop being feminine (and become hors) while still remaining sexually attractive, but men lose most of their attractiveness once they lose their masculinity.

So the problem has nothing to do with uneven numbers of buyers and sellers or different goals between men and women; it just has to do with the fact that most men aren't men at all.

I could see this debate going on for a long time, and I'm not even sure where this is going. Let me simplify another observation:

Here is an easy way to see whether or not women are buyers and men are sellers.

Who says "No" more often to advances from the opposite sex?

Men or Women

Who says "No" more often in sales?

Salesperson or Customer

 

[Answers]

I agree and disagree that guys have a tough time because they aren't men. Partly why the dynamic got worse in the first place is because men gave over more power to women and would do even more for sex. But even if men improved and became men, it makes things worse. It makes things more competitive. As long as women sit there with the power to choose/reject men that want to sex them, they will always have an advantage in rejecting men good enough for them. In other words, today's DJ becomes tomorrow's AFC. It's all relative.

But DJs don't become AFCs if there are loads of DJs. Even if most men were DJs, men would still have the upper hand (the buyers) because women are attracted to DJs rather than AFCs who want women.

I know what you're saying! Thing is would they fight it out for the best women?? Overall I doubt things would get worse if there was more DJs. The more DJs the more power to men.

 

[Answers]

No one knows you are the prise until you initiate an action. That is the first step to a sale, being pro-active.

If anyone honestly thinks that he is so much the prise that he doesn't have to say or do anything, then I invite you to go to a club, or wherever, sit by yourself and dont look or talk to anyone. See how many women come around and throw themselves at you. Come on

That besides the point. The point is DJs are higher value and that attracts women. Just because people flirt doesn't mean they like each other. Women flirt all the time with AFCs they don't like but it dosn't mean they want the AFCs more than the AFC want them.

 

[Squiggly Sponge]

Cool beans...

I was actually thinking more along the lines of marketing ROI. The point of determining your ROI is to find the point at which you are realizing the most bang for the buck. (Pun not intended.) Furthermore, you would also keep your costs down and quite possibly change how you make decisions about your life.

You might be wondering, "But how can I assign monetary value to, say, sex?" Basically, you have to figure out your breakeven point, or the amount of resources (not just money) that you have to spend to recoup your expenses. Define your goals and objectives for being successful in the mating market, and look at that definition of success in relation to your breakeven point. Assign a monetary value to success to make determining your ROI easier.

Breaking the MROI formula down:

• MROI = Return / Investment
• MROI = Gross Margin - Investment / Investment
• MROI = (Revenue - Cost of Goods Sold) - Investment / Investment

Look at all the following in terms of seduction, relationships, self-improvement, etc. (Get a copy of Jim Lenskold's book "Marketing ROI" for a deeper explanation.)

You can get more complex than this, but you're probably thinking "wtf?" already. Don't give up yet though. Look at each item and see how you can interpret them in a Don Juan context. Here're some examples:

• "referrals" are men or women who want to introduce you to someone else;
• long-term expenditures are such expenses as additional insurance or ongoing payments for her diamond ring;
• upfront development costs are cologne, club clothing, etc.;
• incremental savings could be the amount of money she shares with you to pay the bills;
• and direct sales expenses can include dining, live shows, or even income lost due to time spent arguing or screwing around.

Of course, this might be too much work (and thinking) for someone flipping burgers at a fast-food joint. But if you want to be more financially responsible and maximize your MROI where relationships are concerned, then this might be something to look into.

Luckily I know a bit of Accounting so I was able to understand all of that. I suppose it's better to think of things analytically like this, especially when you get attached. Definitely helps put things into perspective, if you can see that she isn't giving you a good return then it's time to move on, otherwise it's just a waste of time .

 

[Dongfu]

That besides the point. The point is DJs are higher value and that attracts women.

So how do they know you are higher value if you dont demonstrate it in some way.

 

[Mad Manic]

But DJs don't become AFCs if there are loads of DJs. Even if most men were DJs, men would still have the upper hand (the buyers) because women are attracted to DJs rather than AFCs who want women.

I know what you're saying! Thing is would they fight it out for the best women?? Overall I doubt things would get worse if there was more DJs. The more DJs the more power to men.

I again see what you're saying, you're saying that often women reject guys because they are losers and genuinely don't deserve her. Yet, that overs some cases. But what about perfectly decent guys who aren't AFC in their nature, just decent looking, normal guys who don't get girls like many because women are so overpriced? What's their excuse? Nothing other than the market being so distorted and biased towards women.

I think if things were set equal between the sexes and most men were DJs, men could hold their own. But given the power women have, if guys upped their level by gym, game etc how does that help? It just creates a better quality pool of men for the women to select. It doesn't change two key facts; men want sex most and men have to approach. As long as these apply women will ration sex and choose 10-15% to sex 60% rather than 50%+. That's my point, today's DJ will be tommorrow's AFC.

What if women put a height cap on men, never go out with a guy under 5' 10". What happens? The pool of men is 'better' (tall guys) and they fight it out whilst average-short guys get 0. It still ends up as overpriced women controlling a market where the seller is more hungry (men).

MM

 

[Answers]

It just creates a better quality pool of men for the women to select. It doesn't change two key facts; men want sex most and men have to approach

So how do they know you are higher value if you dont demonstrate it in some way.

It doesn't matter who approaches who. Thats just like viewing the product. A higher value man can approach any woman and show her himself but it doesn't mean he wants the women. Its what happens after the approach that really counts.

I've been approached by women in the past but by displaying lower value and being a clueless AFC it didn't take long for them to loose interest in me.

 

[Dongfu]

It doesn't matter who approaches who. Thats just like viewing the product. A higher value man can approach any woman and show her himself but it doesn't mean he wants the women.

I've been approached by women in the past but by displaying lower value and being a clueless AFC it didn't take long for them to loose interest in me.

When did I say "approach"? Your argument is completely irrelevant to anything I said. Do you mind me asking

1. How old you are
2. Have you ever worked in sales
3. How long have you been successful with women if at all

 

[Mad Manic]

It doesn't matter who approaches who. Thats just like viewing the product. A higher value man can approach any woman and show her himself but it doesn't mean he wants the women. Its what happens after the approach that really counts.

I've been approached by women in the past but by displaying lower value and being a clueless AFC it didn't take long for them to loose interest in me.

In it's simplest form it doesn't, but when the situation is such that men have to approach because the women are more prized by society and do not need to approach due to so many options, then yes it does matter. Men have to approach in order for a shot at the girl, the girl doesn't need to because she knows men want her and thus she has to do no work. Higher value men are still not higher value than women. They still have little sexual/social power compared to them. They are just chosen for sex moreso than the majority.

The fact that women approached you and rejected you says it all. They are prized enough to reject even if they make a move. I'd like to know the amount of times you approached a hottie then 'rejected her' when she wanted you. Highly unlikely unless she was a total looney. Clearly the women who rejected you did so on some very minor judgmental stuff ... so they are prized and have enough options to do that.

MM

 

[Dongfu]

In it's simplest form it doesn't, but when the situation is such that men have to approach because the women are more prized by society and do not need to approach due to so many options, then yes it does matter. Men have to approach in order for a shot at the girl, the girl doesn't need to because she knows men want her and thus she has to do no work. Higher value men are still not higher value than women. They still have little sexual/social power compared to them. They are just chosen for sex moreso than the majority.

The fact that women approached you and rejected you says it all. They are prized enough to reject even if they make a move. I'd like to know the amount of times you approached a hottie then 'rejected her' when she wanted you. Highly unlikely unless she was a total looney. Clearly the women who rejected you did so on some very minor judgmental stuff ... so they are prized and have enough options to do that.

MM

Thank you - finally someone making some sense around here.

 

[Obsidian]

I reject girls all the time...especially after I've approached and gotten to know them. The way I reject is simply more subtle -- I reject them by not asking them out. If I do ask them out, then no, I'm not likely to reject anymore because I wouldn't have asked them out if I weren't interested.

Dongfu, whether the salesman or the customer makes the approach depends on the industry. If I go in to Wal-Mart and try to buy a new television, I'm approaching. If I go to a car lot and try to buy a car, I'm approaching, and I may even make an offer on a price. The mere fact that a man makes the approach (and risks getting turned down with a "no") does not mean that the woman is the buyer, or that she has all the power.

Moreover, I think Mad Manic's depressing economic forecast about the spread of DJism is flawed. If every man became a DJ, it would not make things harder for us. The reason things have become so hard to begin with is because of the spread of androgyny. Men don't act like men so most women have become spoiled princesses. If more men stood up and refused to tolerate crap, women would have a stronger incentive to improve.

Finally, I think it's silly to suggest that women want to couple less than men. Women define themselves by whom they hook up with; men typically just need women for sex, companionship, and children. Many women are less interested in meaningless sex than men are: That's because, morals aside, women (traditionally) have been shamed against giving in to horishness. They can also become single moms. But they are still interested in men; they just want men who actually love them. And believe me, there are PLENTY of women (or I should say "hors") for whom this generalization is entirely inaccurate. I think more men could become DJs without having any impact on the level of horishness. Most DJs will accept some level of horishness; they just won't put up with b1tchiness or c0ck-teases.

If more men became DJs/players, more sex would probably take place.

 

[Mad Manic]

I reject girls all the time...especially after I've approached and gotten to know them. The way I reject is simply more subtle -- I reject them by not asking them out. If I do ask them out, then no, I'm not likely to reject anymore because I wouldn't have asked them out if I weren't interested.

I've done the same, but if you think more deeply, you aren't doing the same as what the women are doing to you. They reject you on silly nitpicky things because they are so overpriced that they can. In other words, they are choosing to sex someone else instead of sexing you. When you 'reject' a girl, you're not really rejecting her per se, but you're giving up on her because you know all the hassle involved to game her, isolate her, try to sex her etc. isn't worth it due to her dull personality, cvckblocking friends or whatever. In other words, they reject your penis, you reject the task of going for their vagina. There's a big difference.

Dongfu, whether the salesman or the customer makes the approach depends on the industry. If I go in to Wal-Mart and try to buy a new television, I'm approaching. If I go to a car lot and try to buy a car, I'm approaching, and I may even make an offer on a price. The mere fact that a man makes the approach (and risks getting turned down with a "no") does not mean that the woman is the buyer, or that she has all the power.

If you read my earlier post this was explained. I said in it's simplest form it doesn't matter. In theory if men were required to approach BUT due to society got every girl they approached they'd have the power over women, since they score every girl they meet but women rely on who approaches them. But when men have to approach BECAUSE women are so sought after, prized, in control, high in demand and don't approach BECAUSE they don't need to, then it suddenly matters. Men approach because they have no choice.

Moreover, I think Mad Manic's depressing economic forecast about the spread of DJism is flawed. If every man became a DJ, it would not make things harder for us. The reason things have become so hard to begin with is because of the spread of androgyny. Men don't act like men so most women have become spoiled princesses. If more men stood up and refused to tolerate crap, women would have a stronger incentive to improve.

Again, back to my earlier post. The situation arised due to feminism and biology etc. But given the situation, if every guy became a DJ, it wouldn't help matters. It would just make women have a better pool of men to select. Your notion of addressing the power imbalance will only work if men unite and say 'no NONE of us are going to put with your BS, start treating us equally and sexing us with a 1:1 ratio not 1:6'. But how will that happen? If most men become DJs, women will say 'Ok we will only fvck the super DJ's now'. Are the super DJs going to turn down sex with hot girls as a sympathy vote for the others? Why aren't the DJs who get laid doing that now? Biology.

Finally, I think it's silly to suggest that women want to couple less than men. Women define themselves by whom they hook up with; men typically just need women for sex, companionship, and children. Many women are less interested in meaningless sex than men are: That's because, morals aside, women (traditionally) have been shamed against giving in to horishness. They can also become single moms. But they are still interested in men; they just want men who actually love them. And believe me, there are PLENTY of women (or I should say "hors") for whom this generalization is entirely inaccurate. I think more men could become DJs without having any impact on the level of horishness. Most DJs will accept some level of horishness; they just won't put up with b1tchiness or c0ck-teases.

If more men became DJs/players, more sex would probably take place.

Women want to couple up, and that's why the half decent ones are nearly always coupled up. I'm not sure where you got the idea that they didn't. They are not as desperate for sex as men or as bothered, since they aren't as driven and sex is on a plate 24/7 from quality men.

You are thinking too absolutely IMO. You're saying women have set the bar at level x and it's up to men to reach it. But my issue is, the bar can be moved however they please and if men up their standard the bar will move accordingly. As long as there are a few guys willing to sex hot girls, girls will always be picky and rationing sex. You have to cut off all approaches, all pedestalising, all staring, all flirting ad finitum to change the power imbalance. I doubt that will happen. The allure of a vagina on a good looking girl is way too strong.

MM

 

[Answers]

When did I say "approach"? Your argument is completely irrelevant to anything I said. Do you mind me asking

1. How old you are
2. Have you ever worked in sales
3. How long have you been successful with women if at all

Approach/signs of interest, whatever. You're talking about little things. If a man looks at a woman etc then she has the power! This is the sort of stuff your talking about.

 

[Answers]

I've done the same, but if you think more deeply, you aren't doing the same as what the women are doing to you. They reject you on silly nitpicky things because they are so overpriced that they can. In other words, they are choosing to sex someone else instead of sexing you. When you 'reject' a girl, you're not really rejecting her per se, but you're giving up on her because you know all the hassle involved to game her, isolate her, try to sex her etc. isn't worth it due to her dull personality, cvckblocking friends or whatever. In other words, they reject your penis, you reject the task of going for their vagina. There's a big difference.
MM

Women are not overpriced to a DJ. A DJ attracts women, he is the prize and he's not desperate for sex.

THE GOOD NEWS IS: DJs have most buying power! Some men have many women fighting over them while others (the majority) can't get any women. This is because the majority of men are AFCs who women don't feel any attraction to and that leaves DJs (the minority who attract women) with a big choice!

 

[Mad Manic]

Women are not overpriced to a DJ. A DJ attracts women, he is the prize and he's not desperate for sex.

THE GOOD NEWS IS: DJs have most buying power! Some men have many women fighting over them while others (the majority) can't get any women. This is because the majority of men are AFCs who women don't feel any attraction to and that leaves DJs (the minority who attract women) with a big choice!

Even to a DJ a woman is overpriced. Take a typical 'DJ': Good looking, tall, charming, popular, good body, etc. He still needs to approach and game a girl who is maybe a HB6-7 and stuck up because he wants to sex her and there are other guys doing the same. She has the power to reject him because she can sex another DJ. So women are overpriced. This guys is top notch but still has competition and still has to game etc. and has less power than a mediocre stuck-up girl. He's not desperate per se but still hungry. He doesn't have it on a plate clearly.

I do not agree at all that men who don't get women are AFC's who women aren't attracted to. That describes typical rejections of ugly unconfident losers who women laugh at when rejecting (straight away). What about good looking guys with good personality's who women may snog or exchange numbers with after a lengthy interaction but don't sex/meet up again because 'their friends say's she shouldn't act like a slut' or 'she's taken' or 'she's been burned by her ex' or whatever? Competition and scarcity.

Attraction alone doesn't get women. If you attract a woman but there is social BS/her mates/another DJ in the mix it can be game over. It's still rare that a man has women fighting over him. I know nobody where that's true dscarding wealth/fame. I know the odd guy in a relationship with a fittie which is rare enough as it is. And he's checked off every box in the book.

MM

 

[Lord Shinra]

I'm actually in agreement with Obsidian's thoery of men uniting. Its the strength in numbers theory we all learned in DARE classes.

I've noticed when I go out, whether it be daygaming, the coffee house or a meatmarket, Guys (AFCs and Below) compete against one another, which causes everyone to fail, or in a analogy way, one tire moves forwards while the other goes backwards. I began stressing union with my fellow wingmen, and our success rate went up. Granted, we have developed subtle ways of communicating and verbal cues (heard as nonsensical comments or trigger words, which only make sense to one another) we've been able to close sets together by going to where the interest is, alerting our wings when IOIs are being displayed by someone we arent working, and just in general propping one another up if we start to falter.

Why not unite into groups like that and work for the common goal, as opposed to working against one another because its the DJ thing to do? Teach the chumps that are worth teaching and make them into Wingmen. This is why we lost total control to begin with, because we cant work together.

 

[Mad Manic]

I'm actually in agreement with Obsidian's thoery of men uniting. Its the strength in numbers theory we all learned in DARE classes.

I've noticed when I go out, whether it be daygaming, the coffee house or a meatmarket, Guys (AFCs and Below) compete against one another, which causes everyone to fail, or in a analogy way, one tire moves forwards while the other goes backwards. I began stressing union with my fellow wingmen, and our success rate went up. Granted, we have developed subtle ways of communicating and verbal cues (heard as nonsensical comments or trigger words, which only make sense to one another) we've been able to close sets together by going to where the interest is, alerting our wings when IOIs are being displayed by someone we arent working, and just in general propping one another up if we start to falter.

Why not unite into groups like that and work for the common goal, as opposed to working against one another because its the DJ thing to do? Teach the chumps that are worth teaching and make them into Wingmen. This is why we lost total control to begin with, because we cant work together.

It wasn't him who suggested that the solution was men uniting and cutting off the pedestalised treatment women get in all forms, it was me. He was under the impression that if men improved the dynamic would change. I was saying that it wouldn't help if it just meant women were still sat there choosing or rejecting the advances of a guy; she'd just raise her standards in accordance with the raise in standard of men. She still has that power to ration sex because men want it and women have it for them.

Men work against one another because in most situations they are in competition with each other. If there are x pretty girls in a group and x guys in a group who go over to game them then that's fine, but that's rarely the case. And when one guy gets the girl and the other doesn't (after helping him ... part of the 'team') then things turn ugly. It's nature.

MM

 

[Dongfu]

I reject girls all the time...especially after I've approached and gotten to know them. The way I reject is simply more subtle -- I reject them by not asking them out. If I do ask them out, then no, I'm not likely to reject anymore because I wouldn't have asked them out if I weren't interested.

Okay, but how often does a woman approach you, hit on you, and you reject?

 

[Lord Shinra]

It wasn't him who suggested that the solution was men uniting and cutting off the pedestalised treatment women get in all forms, it was me. He was under the impression that if men improved the dynamic would change. I was saying that it wouldn't help if it just meant women were still sat there choosing or rejecting the advances of a guy; she'd just raise her standards in accordance with the raise in standard of men. She still has that power to ration sex because men want it and women have it for them.

Men work against one another because in most situations they are in competition with each other. If there are x pretty girls in a group and x guys in a group who go over to game them then that's fine, but that's rarely the case. And when one guy gets the girl and the other doesn't (after helping him ... part of the 'team') then things turn ugly. It's nature.

MM

My mistake my man.

But then I must be a different breed of man. I am actually happy if my crew gets action even if I dont. I did my job. And then the next time I'll get it and they won't.

I dont see them as competition, I see them as allies.

 

[Demon]

I dont see them as competition, I see them as allies. ... But then I must be a different breed of man.

Yeah, that breed of man is called smart. Collaboration is key to survival.