Tired of Games

[SW15]

I rarely get flaked on. Maybe once every 20 first dates.

My first date flake rate has been high over time.

When I consider my first date flake rate, I consider flakes to be....

1. Women I collect phone numbers from in-person approaching without specifying a date time/place during the in-person approach and the first date doesn't happen.
2. Women I arrange a first date with in-person and then collect her number and the first date doesn't happen.
3. Women from tech-based methods (swipe apps and DMs) who agree to a first date and first date doesn't happen. Since I stopped using these tech-based methods years ago, these aren't relevant today. When I was using tech-based methods, this was happening. I do not consider women who disappeared from the middle of in-app convos and texting to be a part of flaking, though that did happen many times.

Items 1 and 2 still happen to me.

 

[SW15]

The issues you are having are a very common experience for young(ish) men today, in fact I'd go as far to say that this is the norm.

You are living in a time with a dating culture that has been completely warped by social media and dating apps.

There are data points that support this claim. Many have been shared on various threads throughout this forum over time.

A young woman today could have access to more potential suitors in one week than a woman from previous generations would have had in an entire lifetime. This was a hard reality for me to accept a few years ago, but a woman that you are talking to is very likely in contact with at least a few men that are comparable to you or possibly better than you.

Women are also far more readily eager to next men instead of giving them a 2nd date, which is a result of the sheer (over)abundance they have with their options of male suitors. Maybe she likes guys that are 6'+ and fit, but you have a sense of humor she doesn't understand or she doesn't like the way you chew your food lol. Again, women today are far fussier than what you would have seen with previous generations of women.

All true. You are even saying this as a guy in a strong competitive position as some who is 6'0"+ and fit.

the overwhelming majority of baby boomer males that got married and had children would be total incels in today's dating market

I've agreed every time you've said it and will continue to agree every time that it is said.

 

[patb]

There’s still a market for beta male doormats (after the women have had their “fun” of course). What there’s no market for is anyone between the “alpha/beta” polarity. Neither fish nor fowl, the aggrandized woman has no use for the likes of you.

 

[SW15]

What there’s no market for is anyone between the “alpha/beta” polarity.

What is between alpha and beta? Men are either alphas/sigmas (sigmas being more introverted, lone wolf types) or betas/omegas (omegas being the worst of the worst males).

 

[patb]

What is between alpha and beta? Men are either alphas/sigmas (sigmas being more introverted, lone wolf types) or betas/omegas (omegas being the worst of the worst males).

I’d say someone that isn’t a pushover but doesn’t devote his life to peacocking either.

I wouldn’t agree that those four categories are grouped that way. I’d say omega and sigma are two sides of the same coin (a point of denial around these parts for obvious reasons). Similarly, I’d say betas and alphas are more aptly grouped together, both being conformist social ladder climbers/clingers.

 

[SW15]

I’d say someone that isn’t a pushover but doesn’t devote his life to peacocking either.

That to me is a still a beta. I would call that a Greater Beta.

I wouldn’t agree that those four categories are grouped that way. I’d say omega and sigma are two sides of the same coin (a point of denial around these parts for obvious reasons). Similarly, I’d say betas and alphas are more aptly grouped together, both being conformist social ladder climbers/clingers.

This is how I see the omegas, betas, alphas, and sigmas

Omegas are the worst of the worst. These are generally people who have employment issues, money issues, looks issues, and personality issues all at the same time. Very obese people, neckbeards, and the most severe mental illness cases often fall under this category.

Betas are the typical males, the middle of the bell curve for the most part. The 1990s/2000s pickup artist community called these men Average Frustrated Chumps (AFCs). You may still occasionally see the AFC acronym around the Manosphere, but it has been fading in use. Since the middle of the bell curve is so big, there's a lot of variance in beta male behavior. Betas believe a lot of mainstream tropes like "Just Be Yourself!" and "Happy Wife, Happy Life" type stuff. These are the mainstream, blue pill, fantasyland beliefs.

Sigmas are introverted males who have questioned the system. They are not mainstream and they don't believe in the blue pill fairy tale. They have their own strong system of beliefs. They do believe in optimizing looks, money, status, and personality but won't want to be the center of attention or lead a group. They want to live their way. They get women who are drawn to their independent spirit and way of viewing the world.

Alphas are considered the highest form of male. Introversion is the main differentiator between the sigma male and alpha male. Alphas are the pinnacle of being men and most attractive to women. They are more outgoing and can draw attention more easily. They have questioned the system to some extent, though some men can look Alpha on physique (6'0"+ and fit/muscular) but have beta behaviors. 6'0"+, fit men can get results even when behaving like betas.

 

[sangheilios]

I think it's always been like that. What's different nowadays is that you have access to superficial connection (via social media, OLD) with say 50 women, out of which you don't connect deeply with any of them, whereas in the past you had only real life interaction with say 5 women, none of which you could connect deeply with. But because of society's expectations, you'd still marry one of them.


Yeah, but the key point is that those are not viable suitors, ie she doesn't like them and/or they don't like her and only want sex. If you were looking for a deep connection with a woman and all your matches on OLD consisted of out of shape, short haired women in their 50s, would you say you have an abundance of viable candidates?

So, are you going to tell me that the overwhelming majority of single men that women have to choose from are not viable or acceptable suitors? Sure, some of the men in this bracket definitely fall within this bracket, but you are absolutely insane if you think that they represent a substantial number of them. Beliefs like this are the reason why the dating market is so terrible for young men today. Women are far too readily eager to next men that literally don't check off every single point on their list. In the past, if a man had a job and was otherwise normal in regards to his behavior and his appearance he didn't struggle to find a roughly average woman. However, you can have men like this that are full blown struggling or maybe at best only able to land incredibly low quality women.

The dating market is tough out there for young men, but to go and tell them that they aren't viable or good enough is insane. Can you imagine telling these men they aren't acceptable, so they go and put a massive amount of time and energy into fitness, career, finance, style, etc. Now, imagine they put a lot of energy into this and at the end it's not good enough at all or they are only able to get a woman that isn't anywhere near their actual level. That's absolutely insane.

 

[sangheilios]

That to me is a still a beta. I would call that a Greater Beta.



This is how I see the omegas, betas, alphas, and sigmas

Omegas are the worst of the worst. These are generally people who have employment issues, money issues, looks issues, and personality issues all at the same time. Very obese people, neckbeards, and the most severe mental illness cases often fall under this category.

Betas are the typical males, the middle of the bell curve for the most part. The 1990s/2000s pickup artist community called these men Average Frustrated Chumps (AFCs). You may still occasionally see the AFC acronym around the Manosphere, but it has been fading in use. Since the middle of the bell curve is so big, there's a lot of variance in beta male behavior. Betas believe a lot of mainstream tropes like "Just Be Yourself!" and "Happy Wife, Happy Life" type stuff. These are the mainstream, blue pill, fantasyland beliefs.

Sigmas are introverted males who have questioned the system. They are not mainstream and they don't believe in the blue pill fairy tale. They have their own strong system of beliefs. They do believe in optimizing looks, money, status, and personality but won't want to be the center of attention or lead a group. They want to live their way. They get women who are drawn to their independent spirit and way of viewing the world.

Alphas are considered the highest form of male. Introversion is the main differentiator between the sigma male and alpha male. Alphas are the pinnacle of being men and most attractive to women. They are more outgoing and can draw attention more easily. They have questioned the system to some extent, though some men can look Alpha on physique (6'0"+ and fit/muscular) but have beta behaviors. 6'0"+, fit men can get results even when behaving like betas.

All of this talk about betas and alphas and any other place along the greek alphabet is honestly not something people should concern themselves with. Humans aren't this black and white and there are some insane variations between them. Some of these "alphas" are anything but. Douchebags like Dan Bilzerian try to portray an alpha image that appeals to teenagers but in reality the guy is a super insecure phoney lol. A lot of these guys that you might see as "alpha" have nothing backing them up, it's something I've seen a lot over the years.

Most people are followers that go along with the crowd, societal pressures, etc. There's nothing necessarily wrong with this, at the end of the day this is instinctive behavior that in the past would have aided with survival. Humans are a social species, and by going AGAINST the group could have very well lead to being ostracized by the group and thereby a threat to your survival. The whole alpha thing I think is a strange dynamic. Power comes in all sorts of forms, in our society it's definitely based around money and social influence. The people in our society that have power are the billionaire types, think Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, George Soros, etc. None of these guys have "alpha" personalities that might dominate in the hood, but they are incredibly intelligent and driven AND very wealthy. Some of these individuals, particularly George Soros, are incredibly shrewd and calculating individuals that think nothing of toppling their competition, using people as tools, etc. I think one trait you'll find with those in power is that they have many sociopathic/psychopathic traits, as they would be a requirement to get to and maintain these positions. A lot of high level executives, investment bankers, etc. would fall in this category.

 

[Solomon]

Hey all

Simple post:

Do you ever get tired of having to play or respond to games in the dating scene?

Because I am.

Sex for sex's sake, there are ladies of the night. Connecting deeply with a woman these days is practically like winning the lottery anyways.

OP I feel for you, when I get to that stage I take breaks, it's very important to keep your mental sanity.
When I was your age I was very reactive towards women's games, now as a guy about to approach 40 Indifference has helped me to disregard women who play games and also to vet for them quickly to disregard

 

[sangheilios]

OP I feel for you, when I get to that stage I take breaks, it's very important to keep your mental sanity.
When I was your age I was very reactive towards women's games, now as a guy about to approach 40 Indifference has helped me to disregard women who play games and also to vet for them quickly to disregard

Things definitely change as you get into your 30s and up. I think your perspective changes but also what you value. I'm not even old, I'll be 34 soon, but I'm starting to find that I value my free time, hobbies and honestly peace and quiet especially. You'll find that priorities change as the years go by, what you once highly valued at 20 may seem outright trivial or stupid to you at 30 lol.

 

[pipeman84]

So, are you going to tell me that the overwhelming majority of single men that women have to choose from are not viable or acceptable suitors? Sure, some of the men in this bracket definitely fall within this bracket, but you are absolutely insane if you think that they represent a substantial number of them.

Yeah, if the standard is 'deep connection' then most of them are not viable ... that doesn't mean they're fat or broke. Look at it the other way, a high value man couldn't connect with an airhead, even if she's hot.

In the past, if a man had a job and was otherwise normal in regards to his behavior and his appearance he didn't struggle to find a roughly average woman.

In the past women were not as free as today to enter a relationship with someone they had a deep connection with ... they were looking mainly for a provider. I don't understand why some people long for the 'good old days' ... what's so desirable in being with a woman who is kind of forced (due to societal pressure) to marry you and you were mostly regarded as a plough horse.

 

[Solomon]

Things definitely change as you get into your 30s and up. I think your perspective changes but also what you value. I'm not even old, I'll be 34 soon, but I'm starting to find that I value my free time, hobbies and honestly peace and quiet especially. You'll find that priorities change as the years go by, what you once highly valued at 20 may seem outright trivial or stupid to you at 30 lol.

Totally agree. As I'm typing this I'm watching CNBC news regarding ETF crypto approvals and what it means for the market.
10 years ago I was not watching anything finance-related heckI didn't even know what an ETF was, I was most likely getting ready to go to a bar or club. I can honestly say it's been a little over 2 years since I went to a bar or club on a friday night

As I have got older chasing women has become far less of a prioity the hours I wasted in my 20s and early 30s had I been focused like i am now I would be a millionaire 10 times over already

 

[patb]

Yeah, if the standard is 'deep connection' then most of them are not viable ... that doesn't mean they're fat or broke. Look at it the other way, a high value man couldn't connect with an airhead, even if she's hot.

In the past women were not as free as today to enter a relationship with someone they had a deep connection with ... they were looking mainly for a provider. I don't understand why some people long for the 'good old days' ... what's so desirable in being with a woman who is kind of forced (due to societal pressure) to marry you and you were mostly regarded as a plough horse.

Women’s desire is highly contextual and tracks closely with need. If they needed men, they would actually feel more desire for more of them.

 

[SW15]

Can you imagine telling these men they aren't acceptable, so they go and put a massive amount of time and energy into fitness, career, finance, style, etc. Now, imagine they put a lot of energy into this and at the end it's not good enough at all or they are only able to get a woman that isn't anywhere near their actual level. That's absolutely insane.

Men are struggling mightily in the mating market. There are a lot of statistics that support that statement.

Plenty of men went to college and obtained a bachelor's degree and a decent white collar job. For their efforts, they struggle to get vagina. This didn't happen in past decades. It is a phenomenon of the 2000s and beyond and has mainly affected Millennials and Gen Z.

are you going to tell me that the overwhelming majority of single men that women have to choose from are not viable or acceptable suitors? Sure, some of the men in this bracket definitely fall within this bracket, but you are absolutely insane if you think that they represent a substantial number of them. Beliefs like this are the reason why the dating market is so terrible for young men today. Women are far too readily eager to next men that literally don't check off every single point on their list. In the past, if a man had a job and was otherwise normal in regards to his behavior and his appearance he didn't struggle to find a roughly average woman. However, you can have men like this that are full blown struggling or maybe at best only able to land incredibly low quality women.

The dating market is tough out there for young men, but to go and tell them that they aren't viable or good enough is insane.

Many women now think the overwhelming majority of men are not viable or acceptable. Consider the right swipe rates. They are in the low single digits. Rollo Tomassi is well known for saying that the average woman wants nothing to do with the average man.

White women likely the most fussy in the United States.

Women routinely dismiss men for the most trivial of things, a behavior that is most pronounced in White, college educated women.

You're correct that men used to be respected for a bachelor's degree or useful trade certification and a decent white collar or blue collar job. Now? That doesn't seem to make a lot of a difference for a lot of men.

Men are getting thirstier than ever as women are rejecting more and more men. As women reject more and more men, men turn to substance abuse and excessive consumption of porn accompanied by masturbation.

The dating market is telling men they aren't good enough.

The solution is maximizing some combination of looks, money, status, and personality/charisma. Looks and money are most important. Rollo Tomassi says "Money, Muscles, and Game".

 

[patb]

I don't think money matters much except at the extremes. How would they even really know?

 

[soulforge]

I rarely get flaked on. Maybe once every 20 first dates.

You're really awesome!

 

[soulforge]

I rarely get flaked on as well. Unless you count a date falling through because of an emergency, but they always let me know before the date, so I don't call that flaking.

You're really awesome! Lol

 

[anonymous12345]

What is between alpha and beta? Men are either alphas/sigmas (sigmas being more introverted, lone wolf types) or betas/omegas (omegas being the worst of the worst males).

I see me as sigma. Without wing cold approaching and clubbing can be hard, but on the other hand, a good wing is really hard to come by, I haven't yet stumbled on any candidate. What do other sigmas think of sigma life?

Though the respect I receive at studies is more an alpha.

 

[BeExcellent]

What is to be the best man for a woman? The beta with loads of money who enjoys to be cucked? They don't exist. I think they used to exist.

No. You are way off base. The “alpha” with enough self assurance to show his humanity who has his act together.

 

[zekko]

Hey all
Simple post:
Do you ever get tired of having to play or respond to games in the dating scene?
Because I am.
Sex for sex's sake, there are ladies of the night. Connecting deeply with a woman these days is practically like winning the lottery anyways.

My approach may not be the best, but for the most part I just refuse to play games. I mean there are certain things you can't get around, like you can't show weakness if you can help it, you have to play the masculine role, etc., but those things should come naturally to a male if you're aware of them.

I was thinking today, as I often do, how all women have to do is be pleasant and nice to you, and that's sexy as hell. But apparently for a guy more is required, and being nice and pleasant might even work against you (although I've always thought women who hold that against you aren't worth your time).

As for prostitutes, how satisfying is it to have to pay someone to pretend to like you?