Special Relationship

[Fruitbat]

Let me correct your history gentlemen. Texas in fact WAS an independent country that won its independence from Mexico on March 2, 1836. Texas was a sovereign nation for 10 years until Texas elected to join the US as a state. Because Texas has been sovereign it has retained the right to secede from the US and once again become sovereign. Texas also can fly its flag at the same height as the US flag due to its former sovereignty. There have been rumblings for years about secession as Texas has a robust economy in its own right.

Native Texans are typically nationalists who are Texans first and Americans second. I certainly meet that description. So Texans are rather a unique breed.

“You can go to Hell, I’m going to Texas”
-Davy Crockett (who later died defending the Alamo)

As a native Texan, I have always revered and considered Churchill a hero and have immense respect for his character and fortitude as a tactician, strategist, leader, politician and man. He stood on principle when Chamberlain and others were soft and he understood the Nazi threat very early.

“You cannot reason with a Tiger when your head is in its mouth!!!!”
-Sir Winston Churchill

Cheers @Fruitbat to our brethren across the pond. Amazing sacrifice was made by all.

The rescue at Dunkirk was an awesome display of British tenacity. It took guts to order it, and incredible guts for the British people to execute it.

A tip of the cowboy hat to you.

tip of the bowler back

Never knew that about Texas. Given it has somewhat more autonomy, how about joining the British Empire?

I loved Dunkirk but it’s the Battle of Britain which really resonates here. They couldn’t break the RAF. The notion of it is beloved- young lads, all early 20s, in beautiful aircraft, as knights of the air, locked in deadly struggle as his majesty’s subjects were bombed to smitherenes.

As Churchill said “Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed, by so many, to so few”

We had a lot of poles flying for us, Aussies, Americans. My grandmothers told me about going to the air raid shelter, every night. Just 400 yards from where I sit there is a massive bomb crater from a WW2 bomb. Still there.

Let’s not also forget the heroes who manned the Atlantic convoys - many Americans, also one of my grandfathers, across the cold ocean one boom away from a horrible watery grave.

I am very worried these days as it takes a generation to make the same mistakes. I feel we are playing with fire with this Ukraine war. If it goes hot, we are all fked.

 

[BeExcellent]

tip of the bowler back

Never knew that about Texas. Given it has somewhat more autonomy, how about joining the British Empire?

I loved Dunkirk but it’s the Battle of Britain which really resonates here. They couldn’t break the RAF. The notion of it is beloved- young lads, all early 20s, in beautiful aircraft, as knights of the air, locked in deadly struggle as his majesty’s subjects were bombed to smitherenes.

As Churchill said “Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed, by so many, to so few”

We had a lot of poles flying for us, Aussies, Americans. My grandmothers told me about going to the air raid shelter, every night. Just 400 yards from where I sit there is a massive bomb crater from a WW2 bomb. Still there.

Let’s not also forget the heroes who manned the Atlantic convoys - many Americans, also one of my grandfathers, across the cold ocean one boom away from a horrible watery grave.

I am very worried these days as it takes a generation to make the same mistakes. I feel we are playing with fire with this Ukraine war. If it goes hot, we are all fked.

Those pilots in the RAF were a ballsy brilliantly bunch certainly. And stubborn as hell. True grit in the true sense. Real heros.

Ya. World is concerning. My son commissions in the USAF next May. Has wanted to be a fighter pilot like his grandfather (my late first father in law) all his life. It’s a destabilizing world he’s going to serve in, but he is driven toward that goal. God speed. We shall see.

 

[Fruitbat]

Those pilots in the RAF were a ballsy brilliantly bunch certainly. And stubborn as hell. True grit in the true sense. Real heros.

Ya. World is concerning. My son commissions in the USAF next May. Has wanted to be a fighter pilot like his grandfather (my late first father in law) all his life. It’s a destabilizing world he’s going to serve in, but he is driven toward that goal. God speed. We shall see.

You didn’t respond about my potential idea incorporate Texan into the British empire?

how do you think my campaign will go down. Tricky sell, but I’m a salesman. It’s like the ultimate test.

 

[BeExcellent]

You didn’t respond about my potential idea incorporate Texan into the British empire?

how do you think my campaign will go down. Tricky sell, but I’m a salesman. It’s like the ultimate test.

Well we Texans are a proud, stubborn, fiercely independent bunch. We’re more headache that it’s worth, trust me. We are better off being happy cousins I promise.

Texans are kinda like Aussies. It’s the Wild West out here, only rattlesnakes instead of brown snakes, alligators instead of crocs. I appreciate that some Aussie s go to the pub in their planes, and round up cattle by helicopter. Mad respect. Texans are kinda like that.

A swashbuckling handful. Lol.

My dad drank Irish whisky and thought a man was a lil’ bit ch if he didn’t drink neat, lol.

Come on down. We’ll have an accent & hot pepper eating contest. Survive that & you’re on.

If you can’t ride, shoot and dance we will pull your Texan card, lol….

Paging @Duke

Back on topic, let’s just say this: Audie Murphy, most decorated soldier in US history, was a Texan. He fought in WWII in Europe & later acted in Hollywood before settling back in Texas to raise a family.

Cheers y’all

 

[Bokanovsky]

Hi Money And Muscle,
On WW1 yes reparations were responsible for WW2 but Y'all included your Woodrow Wilson who presided over the Peace negotiations,he together with the Frenchman Clemanceau insisted on rediculous reparations it was after all an Armistice not a Victory.
"In the Pacific, however... Yeah, that was 100% your unwanted, unloved, emancipated step-child."Sorry but disagree...The first involvement against Japan was with the Russians in Mongolia,in fact Marshall Zhukov inflicted Japans first reversal at Khalkin Ghol in 1937....Which was incidentally the year that Nationalist China started fighting them too,the Chinese suffered 6 million War Dead...Then we have the British 14th Army in Burma who were responsible for more Japanese casualties than all other Allied participants in one of the greatest retreats ever they were pushed back into India,where they made a heroic stand on the Arakan at a place called Imphal one of WW2's bloodiest battles after prevailing there they fought a bitter war pushing the Japs all the way to Vietnam...Then could I mention Australia?The Japanese Armies furthest limit was New Guinea where they were stopped by the Australians on the Owen Stanleys before any Americans arrived on the Scene,Just Saying.

Also, let’s not forget the Soviet invasion on Manchuria in August of 1945, which was the deciding factor in ending the war with Japan. Intercepted diplomatic cables suggest that the Japanese were far less concerned about nuclear bombs (the long-term effects of radiation were not well understood back then) than they were about the fact that the Russians were absolutely steamrolling their Kwantung Army. The Russians brought 1.6 million men, nearly 6,000 tanks and 4,000 aircraft. They captured more territory from the Japanese in 2 weeks than the Brits and the Americans did from the Germans in the 11 months following D-Day. The Japanese were so terrified by the prospect of a Soviet invasion of the home islands, they agreed to an unconditional surrender to the Americans.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Let me correct your history gentlemen. Texas in fact WAS an independent country that won its independence from Mexico on March 2, 1836. Texas was a sovereign nation for 10 years until Texas elected to join the US as a state. Because Texas has been sovereign it has retained the right to secede from the US and once again become sovereign. Texas also can fly its flag at the same height as the US flag due to its former sovereignty. There have been rumblings for years about secession as Texas has a robust economy in its own right.

Native Texans are typically nationalists who are Texans first and Americans second. I certainly meet that description. So Texans are rather a unique breed.

“You can go to Hell, I’m going to Texas”
-Davy Crockett (who later died defending the Alamo)

As a native Texan, I have always revered and considered Churchill a hero and have immense respect for his character and fortitude as a tactician, strategist, leader, politician and man. He stood on principle when Chamberlain and others were soft and he understood the Nazi threat very early.

“You cannot reason with a Tiger when your head is in its mouth!!!!”
-Sir Winston Churchill

Cheers @Fruitbat to our brethren across the pond. Amazing sacrifice was made by all.

The rescue at Dunkirk was an awesome display of British tenacity. It took guts to order it, and incredible guts for the British people to execute it.

A tip of the cowboy hat to you.

Where in the US constitution does it say that Texas has the right to secede? It would be interesting to see what happens if Texas tried to do so. The original thirteen colonies were also technically independent states for several years before forming the union. You may have heard about a few of them trying to secede a while back. It didn’t work out so well.

An an aside, I have always found it amusing that a nation that was formed through secession from a larger empire takes such a dim view of anyone who wants to secede from it.

 

[BeExcellent]

Also, let’s not forget the Soviet invasion on Manchuria in August of 1945, which was the deciding factor in ending the war with Japan. Intercepted diplomatic cables suggest that the Japanese were far less concerned about nuclear bombs (the long-term effects of radiation were not well understood back then) than they were about the fact that the Russians were absolutely steamrolling their Kwantung Army. The Russians brought 1.6 million men, nearly 6,000 tanks and 4,000 aircraft. They captured more territory from the Japanese in 2 weeks than the Brits and the Americans did from the Germans in the 11 months following D-Day. The Japanese were so terrified by the prospect of a Soviet invasion of the home islands, they agreed to an unconditional surrender to the Americans.

Soviet-Japan and the termination of the Second World War - The National Archives blog

75 years ago today, in the morning of Sunday 2 September 1945, the Japanese representatives signed the Instrument of Surrender, which officially ended the Second World War. The Second World War in the Far East had started with Japan’s attack of the American naval base at Pearl Harbor in the...

blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Very interesting @Bokanovsky. That link is from the US National Archives and confirms, though not to the same detail as what you stated, that the Japanese were in fact very fearful of the Soviets.

 

[BeExcellent]

Where in the US constitution does it say that Texas has the right to secede? It would be interesting to see what happens if Texas tried to do so. The original thirteen colonies were also technically independent states for several years before forming the union. You may have heard about a few of them trying to secede a while back. It didn’t work out so well.

An an aside, I have always found it amusing that a nation that was formed through secession from a larger empire takes such a dim view of anyone who wants to secede from it.

The US Constitution was written 50 years earlier. It’s not there. It is found in the terms under which the Republic of Texas agreed to join the US in 1846. Interestingly Hawaii, also previously a sovereign nation also retains the right of secession. Texas was never a colony under the British crown. It was considered a part of Mexico until the Texas revolution.

 

[Bokanovsky]

The US Constitution was written 50 years earlier. It’s not there. It is found in the terms under which the Republic of Texas agreed to join the US in 1846. Interestingly Hawaii, also previously a sovereign nation also retains the right of secession. Texas was never a colony under the British crown. It was considered a part of Mexico until the Texas revolution.

The US constitution has a number of amendments (some as recent as 1971). None of them say anything about Texas or Hawaii being permitted to leave.

Are you aware of the fact that Texas already tried to secede once, in 1861? And that the Supreme Court held in Texas v. White (1869) that Texas had no legal right to secede?

So no, Texas has no legal right to secede. At least not under US law. The only way you can secede is through a revolution.

 

[BeExcellent]

The US constitution has a number of amendments (some as recent as 1971). None of them say anything about Texas or Hawaii being permitted to leave.

Are you aware of the fact that Texas already tried to secede once, in 1861? And that the Supreme Court held in Texas v. White (1869) that Texas had no legal right to secede?

So no, Texas has no legal right to secede. At least not under US law. The only way you can secede is through a revolution.

Not so. The have been court cases about this. My father was a prominent attorney in Texas and studied this extensively when he served as Asst. Attorney General. The Texas Declaration of Independence from Mexico is in direct conflict with US court proceedings thereafter and the argument can be made that the US truly has no jurisdiction. Of course the SCOTUS is going to find against Texas, as that strives to thwart secession because the US interest is to retain the union. But how do cases get to SCOTUS? Lower courts made decisions in favor of Texas, that’s how. The documents conflict.

Kinda like Georgia and Ukraine and the conflicts in your part of the world regarding sovereignty. They have bowed out of Soviet/Russian control because they are sovereign. Texas could take similar steps here as Texas has been a sovereign state in the past.

Now in all likelihood no secession will never occur unless the US keeps driving things off a cliff economically. But the documents are in direct conflict. The US benefits greatly from the Texas economy, especially oil, and my family has been in the oil business for generations, so we are well informed. The real problem is raising a separate military force. There was a case regarding secession AFTER the civil war (Texas revolted against Mexico as a pro slavery jurisdiction among other things).

I don’t purport to know Russian history better than you; I assure you that you do not know the intricacies of this issue in Texas as I and my family do.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Not so. The have been court cases about this. My father was a prominent attorney in Texas and studied this extensively when he served as Asst. Attorney General. The Texas Declaration of Independence from Mexico is in direct conflict with US court proceedings thereafter and the argument can be made that the US truly has no jurisdiction. Of course the SCOTUS is going to find against Texas, as that strives to thwart secession because the US interest is to retain the union. But how do cases get to SCOTUS? Lower courts made decisions in favor of Texas, that’s how. The documents conflict.

With respect, this is not a very persuasive argument. I cited a Supreme Court decision and your retort is "my dad was a prominent attorney in Texas and he said..." Unfortunately for Texas, it's the Supreme Court that has the final word on interpreting the Constitution, not your dad. As for conflicting lower court decisions, there is a legal concept called stare decisis. Look it up. Unless the Supreme Court overrides itself (kind of like it recently did by overturning Roe v. Wade), the question is settled. From a strictly legal perspective anyway.

Kinda like Georgia and Ukraine and the conflicts in your part of the world regarding sovereignty. They have bowed out of Soviet/Russian control because they are sovereign. Texas could take similar steps here as Texas has been a sovereign state in the past.

Georgia and Ukraine are not in my part of the world. I am Canadian. Also, they did not secede or "bow out" of Soviet control. In 1991, the republics that made up the former USSR (including Russia) got together and agreed to dissolve the country. This was not a secession as there was nothing left to secede from. The USSR simply ceased to exist.

I don’t purport to know Russian history better than you; I assure you that you do not know the intricacies of this issue in Texas as I and my family do.

Somehow I'm not reassured.

 

[Fruitbat]

Who would have thought this post, which started when I was pretty drunk and bored, would turn into such an interesting chat.

 

[BeExcellent]

Ah. See. We all entertain and educate one another!

 

[Dr.Suave]

Let me correct your history gentlemen.

Oh I was just joking around. Funny you should "correct" me on this particular subject: My students were just telling me they wish I was their History teacher; but Im "stuck" teaching them Physics. I´ve visited Texas more often than any other place, it´s a couple hours drive from home.

- When I die, I may not go to heaven
I don't know if they let cowboys in
If they don't, just let me go to Texas
Cause Texas is as close as I've been

But I still prefer Man Diego for the weather.

 

[BeExcellent]

It’s cool @Dr.Suave. Just enlightening folks from elsewhere that may not have been aware of the Texan ethos and it’s history.

And yeah. San Diego (Man Diego, lol, I’m stealing that) does have nicer weather without tornadoes or hailstorms and very infrequent hurricanes. The earthquake thing isn’t so great, but whataya gonna do?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

The US Constitution was written 50 years earlier. It’s not there. It is found in the terms under which the Republic of Texas agreed to join the US in 1846. Interestingly Hawaii, also previously a sovereign nation also retains the right of secession. Texas was never a colony under the British crown. It was considered a part of Mexico until the Texas revolution.

The economic consequences of that would be dire...look at what has happened with their energy prices since they chose not to be part of the grid the rest of the country uses...

Imagine getting an electric bill for 10K one month because the grid usage spiked and as it's over 100 the whole time you have no choice to run AC all day and night.

This has happened more than a few times the past couple of years...

Now imagine having these issues multipled by 100. That's what would happen if they left the US.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

It’s cool @Dr.Suave. Just enlightening folks from elsewhere that may not have been aware of the Texan ethos and it’s history.

And yeah. San Diego (Man Diego, lol, I’m stealing that) does have nicer weather without tornadoes or hailstorms and very infrequent hurricanes. The earthquake thing isn’t so great, but whataya gonna do?

Neither is the no water thing that entire corner of the country is dealing with.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hi BeExcellent,
Yes and what Davy Crockett and his brave mates did at the Alamo is being undone by the millions you encourage to cross the Rio Grande,Santa Anna must be laughing in his grave!

 

[BeExcellent]

Hi BeExcellent,
Yes and what Davy Crockett and his brave mates did at the Alamo is being undone by the millions you encourage to cross the Rio Grande,Santa Anna must be laughing in his grave!

True but much of Mexico is overrun with cartel and it’s very dangerous there in many areas now. Hell I think Texas ought to annex Mexico but the corruption down there is likely too much to overcome. I’ve got great tenants and know many solid folks who are Mexican. Can’t blame the hardworking for wanting a better life. Unfortunately bad eggs and mooches also come over.

 

[Fruitbat]

True but much of Mexico is overrun with cartel and it’s very dangerous there in many areas now. Hell I think Texas ought to annex Mexico but the corruption down there is likely too much to overcome. I’ve got great tenants and know many solid folks who are Mexican. Can’t blame the hardworking for wanting a better life. Unfortunately bad eggs and mooches also come over.

the issue you will have which is slowly changing Europe is eventually they will outnumber you, vote for parties who rob you of your money, and then you’ll have nowhere to go, nowhere to run,and you’ll become a minority in your own land.

It’s exactly what happened to the native Americans and it’s coming for you.

They justify it as most cultures outside the west think our prosperity is because we stole everything, rather than developed the technology and social cohesion to win the old world of colonialism. They won’t have campaigns to save you when it’s your turn, as many of us try to help them.
They will be gloating as we fall down the sewer of history, and in my opinion it’s white liberals, not them, to blame!