Intermittent Fasting Issue & Discussion

[Kotaix]

I'm confused, you're eating calorie dense foods when following a diet plan which works specifically because it limits the amount of food you can eat in a duration of time..? These two methods are opposite.

You want low calorie foods. You could choose to not eat for 48 hours, then backfill 8000 calories in your eating window and still get fat. Time spend not eating has nothing to do with weight loss if you are still in a surplus.

If you need a small bit of energy to get you over the hump as OP described, a small handful of high energy snack does the job. Especially when that snack has little to no sugar to trigger an insulin reaction.

 

[Obee1]

I have never been a huge breakfast or lunch person. For many years I skipped both meals most days. Then at dinner I ate healthy foods like meat and veggies, very few carbs, and I stayed the same weight for 8 x years. I wasn't loosing because at dinner I was eating TOO MUCH. When I realized that I was almost doing everything correctly for 18:6 intermittent fasting, other than the portion sizes. So a year ago I started decreasing my portions, while still eating the same healthy foods, and I started to loose weight. I am down 60 lbs since the start of 2022. It's been great.

Today, I am still loosing ~1 lb per week and keeping it off. My 6 x hour eating window is 4pm to 10pm, but many days I stop by 7 or 8pm. I have found lately that around 12pm I start to get really weak feeling tired. When I was working from home during the week, I could slip in a nap. Working in an office now, no so easy to do.. I have been pushing through it and not eating until 4pm. But it's getting harder.

My question to you guys is this: Is there anything I can eat during the fasting window (around noon) to tide me over until until my eating window at 4pm? I was thinking maybe I could eat a couple boiled eggs or some nuts at noon to get me by? I haven't done this yet but I have a feeling I am going to have to soon..

Any other suggestions?

Thanks fellas.

LL

Edit: Moving to Health and Fitness from Anything Else (done by accident).

It sounds like your reason for fasting is for weight loss primarily. From your described eating schedule you have likely not entered ketosis nor have you moved into cell autophagy. Fasting can be great for both of those but can also help you eat at a calorie deficit from your maintenance caloric requirement. For this reason I say eat those eggs and nuts at noon but by definition you are no longer fasting. But that's ok as long as by the end of the day/ week, you're at a calorie deficit. Just like lifting weights, your body has adapted to your diet and progress has slowed. Your body is talking to you now and trying to tell you something.

Be very careful to not be more than 500-750 calories in deficit as you'll lose muscle mass. Muscle is important for many reasons but for your purposes loss of mass means slower metabolism and less glucose stores. When glucose has no place to go it's store in the form of fat. Hopefully you're not lifting and exercising intensely. If I were you I would find what my maintenance calorie requirement is and do a food log for a week or two. From my food log I would make sure I'm getting adequate protein. Someone on a low carb diet needs slightly more protein than someone whose not. Where low carb people get into trouble in my experience is by consuming too much fat which quickly takes them into a calorie surplus. Remember, 1 gram of fat is 9 calories versus 1 gram of protein and carb is 4 calories.

I would also consider lifting weights and walking while eating 3-4 times a day to increase muscle mass and reduce fasting to once or twice a week. When it comes to diet and fat loss, there are only a few principles you must adhere to generally speaking, but the methods are many. Most all diets work because they follow those principles. Just pick one that appeals to you and will be sustainable for the rest of your life while letting you enjoy the good times. Why be 8% BF if you're miserable.

 

[Murk]

There's nothing you can eat to help with your fast, because anything with calories is breaking your fast. Black coffee is all I have in the morning.

I suggest shifting your eating window earlier to 12pm-4/6pm. You can eat lunch with your colleagues like a real human, you will still be fasting the same amount of time but get some food/energy earlier for work and fast more while you sleep. Plus eating at 10pm and going to bed isn't good for fat loss. You want to be asleep while deeper into a fast.

I don't recommend MCT oil unless you're on keto as it's very calorically dense and should only be used to extend a fast or provide quick energy for a workout. If you're not using ketones/on prolonged fast it's just calories. MCT C8 is the best oil I used to take 2 tablespoon before a fasted workout really good stuff.

 

[EyeBRollin]

For everyone here that thinks 'extending a fast by eating calories', I'd like to ask you - why do you think the fast is more important than the overall caloric intake?

Because it is trendy.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

For everyone here that thinks 'extending a fast by eating calories', I'd like to ask you - why do you think the fast is more important than the overall caloric intake?

Fasting has proven health benefits, one of the biggest being autophagy.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Agree, but also because they fundamentally do not understand why they are doing what they are doing. Likely following diet advice they heard off Instagram, TikTok, or some other 'influencer' trying to sell them a product.

The #1 most important aspect of fat loss dieting is that your caloric intake must be below your caloric expenditure. IDK why people think that some magical eating windows can subvert the first law of thermodynamics.

Because the CICO model is highly reductionistic. It's akin to saying all drug addictions can be solved by "just not using drugs".

For example, CICO doesn't account for how meals and meal timings influence hunger hormones ghrelin and leptin, your GI/gut health (which impacts hunger as well), your bodies ability to utilize glucose in liver stores, and worst of all it seems to imply that the foods you eat don't matter, only the calories. Oh and another thing, food labels are often extremely inaccurate so trying to count calories is kind of pointless unless you're eating the same foods in exact portions every day.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Is that why you do it, or are you doing it to lose weight?

I don't do it to lose weight. The main benefits of fasting and exercise are mostly about longevity and overall health. It's been proven in many rat studies that fasting slows all markers of aging.

When I want to lose weight I simply focus on quality of foods and discipline on how much I eat, over anything else. But, fasting can be a good way to kickstart yourself into good habits imo since you can no longer "snack" or "graze" all day, which I think is the biggest reason most people are overweight.

 

[Obee1]

Because the CICO model is highly reductionistic. It's akin to saying all drug addictions can be solved by "just not using drugs".

For example, CICO doesn't account for how meals and meal timings influence hunger hormones ghrelin and leptin, your GI/gut health (which impacts hunger as well), your bodies ability to utilize glucose in liver stores, and worst of all it seems to imply that the foods you eat don't matter, only the calories. Oh and another thing, food labels are often extremely inaccurate so trying to count calories is kind of pointless unless you're eating the same foods in exact portions every day.

I'll agree with you that CICO doesn't account for a lot when it comes to meal timing and the various hormonal responses but I don't think it purports to. CICO is just a simple way of explaining the first law of thermodynamics and its role in maintaining, losing, or gaining weight. Different diets lead to different biochemical pathways for sure. But a healthy diet still must adhere to this law. It is certainly possible to have a bad diet and lose weight by only adhering to this one principle. This has been proven time and time again most notably by the nutrition professor who lost 27 lbs only eating Twinkies. I speculate that certain blood markers were a disaster. Alternatively, a person can fast and end it with excess calories of healthy nutritious foods and gain fat. CICO is not a diet, it is one law that healthy eaters should follow to meet their goals whether that be lose, gain, or maintain weight.

I wouldn't call food labels extremely inaccurate but they certainly aren't exact. They're still a good guideline though. Just like figuring what your Basal Metabolic Rate using the Katch-McArdle formula. It's a guideline, but it'll get you in the ballpark and you can adjust accordingly. Several months out of the year I do exactly what you referred to above. On Sunday I get the scale out and figure my meals and snacks for the week. I then eat the same breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snacks with the exact portions everyday. In a couple weeks based on the scale, measurements, and sometimes a DEXA scan, I'll adjust or maintain my caloric intake. It's not for everyone and maybe excessive but when I go back to my regular eating pattern I have a decent idea of the calories & macros I'm eating because for those several months I was weighing, portioning and counting everything that I stuffed down my gullet. All that said, you have some good points and it shouldn't be all about CICO.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Losing weight is a psychological battle. Calories in vs. calories out is the formula. However makes the math work out will work.

I am of the opinion that deprivation is counterproductive psychologically and fasting would fall under deprivation for the majority of people. Find a way to cut the calories without depriving a person of what they want to eat.

It depends on how you are doing it. Fasting where you don't eat anything for a day is actually one of the best ways to lose pure fat, AND increase your metabolism. Studies have shown that even after 5 days of not eating people's metabolisms were higher than they were prior to starting the fast.

I harness this via a 5:2 fasting cycle each week...additionally you can increase calories on the days you do eat to add increased boosts and still lose weight as you will still be in an energy deficit in a given week.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I'll agree with you that CICO doesn't account for a lot when it comes to meal timing and the various hormonal responses but I don't think it purports to. CICO is just a simple way of explaining the first law of thermodynamics and its role in maintaining, losing, or gaining weight. Different diets lead to different biochemical pathways for sure. But a healthy diet still must adhere to this law. It is certainly possible to have a bad diet and lose weight by only adhering to this one principle. This has been proven time and time again most notably by the nutrition professor who lost 27 lbs only eating Twinkies. I speculate that certain blood markers were a disaster. Alternatively, a person can fast and end it with excess calories of healthy nutritious foods and gain fat. CICO is not a diet, it is one law that healthy eaters should follow to meet their goals whether that be lose, gain, or maintain weight.

I wouldn't call food labels extremely inaccurate but they certainly aren't exact. They're still a good guideline though. Just like figuring what your Basal Metabolic Rate using the Katch-McArdle formula. It's a guideline, but it'll get you in the ballpark and you can adjust accordingly. Several months out of the year I do exactly what you referred to above. On Sunday I get the scale out and figure my meals and snacks for the week. I then eat the same breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snacks with the exact portions everyday. In a couple weeks based on the scale, measurements, and sometimes a DEXA scan, I'll adjust or maintain my caloric intake. It's not for everyone and maybe excessive but when I go back to my regular eating pattern I have a decent idea of the calories & macros I'm eating because for those several months I was weighing, portioning and counting everything that I stuffed down my gullet. All that said, you have some good points and it shouldn't be all about CICO.

There are myriad issues with CICO that I go into great detail about in another thread on this forum.

In general, calories are at best a rough guideline that can be used, especially if you are eating packaged foods where the calorie count can be off by up to 20% in either direction and it's OK by the FDA.

But on top of that...you get into what state a food is in when it's eaten. For instance, if I take a few stalks of raw celery, it's only got about 6 calories. If I cook them in a stew or soup, now it becomes 42 calories because some of the fiber that wasn't digestible when raw now has become digestible. Cooking foods, especially vegetables is similar to digestion where it turns some indigestible fiber into digestible fiber.

Then you deal with carbs that don't really count like fiber but are still included in calories totals. Unless of course you have turned some of that into digestible fiber and then some of it counts.

Protein counts as 4 calories per gram but really it only counts 3 calories.

And so on and so forth until you get to a point where all you can do is guesstimate within 400-500 calories a day of the real total AT BEST

 

[EyeBRollin]

Because the CICO model is highly reductionistic. It's akin to saying all drug addictions can be solved by "just not using drugs".

For example, CICO doesn't account for how meals and meal timings influence hunger hormones ghrelin and leptin, your GI/gut health (which impacts hunger as well), your bodies ability to utilize glucose in liver stores, and worst of all it seems to imply that the foods you eat don't matter, only the calories. Oh and another thing, food labels are often extremely inaccurate so trying to count calories is kind of pointless unless you're eating the same foods in exact portions every day.

It is not that complicated. Focusing on calorie density of food makes it easy to cut calories through food choices.

Dense sources of calories are fat first and foremost, then refined carbohydrates. That means get rid of the oil, butter, and sugar.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

It is not that complicated. Focusing on calorie density of food makes it easy to cut calories through food choices.

Dense sources of calories are fat first and foremost, then refined carbohydrates. That means get rid of the oil, butter, and sugar.

Both of the points you've brought up is known or practiced by almost every fat person in the west, so if it were that simple, they wouldn't still be fat (and getting fatter).

 

[EyeBRollin]

Both of the points you mentioned is known and practiced by almost every fat person, so if it were that simple, they wouldn't be fat.

Quickest way to shed calories from a diet is to keep it the same but eliminate the excess calories. Swap out soda for zero calorie diet soda, or even better - water. Cut out the oil and butter. Replace sugar with Splenda. For most people those 3 things alone shaves 500 to 1,000 calories per day.

It’s actually hard to over-eat calories in the absence of sugar, oil, and sugary drinks.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Quickest way to shed calories from a diet is to keep it the same but eliminate the excess calories. Swap out soda for zero calorie diet soda, or even better - water. Cut out the oil and butter. Replace sugar with Splenda. For most people those 3 things alone shaves 500 to 1,000 calories per day.

It’s actually hard to over-eat calories in the absence of sugar, oil, and sugary drinks.

Fat intake is needed for your body to effectively burn stored fat. FYI.

 

[The Diver]

A great channel with past Olympic athlete, Dr Sten Ekberg.
Subscribe to his channel to watch a lot more detailed and in-depth medical explanations about intermittent fasting.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Fat intake is needed for your body to effectively burn stored fat. FYI.

Fat is naturally occurring in things you should be eating (nuts, seeds, whole grains, fish, lean meat). Not something that needs to go out of your way to get…

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Fat is naturally occurring in things you should be eating (nuts, seeds, whole grains, fish, lean meat). Not something that needs to go out of your way to get…

For the most part I agree with that, but drizzling olive/avocado oil on things like salads etc is a good way to get it too.

 

[Ricky]

FWIW, there's nothing magical about what time you eat your food; 3,000 calories is still 3,000 calories - even if you eat it all in 4 hours.

But IF has one of the best success rates for dieters because it is a lifestyle change that can be kept up with even afer the weight is lost. For that reason alone, IF works really well.
I do a modified IF with two 30-50g protein 'pulses', one in the morning (eggs) and one in the afternoon (2x scoop protein shake), then I can slam 12-16oz chicken breast in the evening and not have room for much else. I stole the idea from here.

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i like this idea because when i intermittent fast strictly i end up drinking too much coffee. I also normally lift or do cardio in the morning so skipping breakfast completely feels a little tougher that it would for the roll out of bed last minute and not exercise intermittent fasters out there

 

[EyeBRollin]

Is the benefit of IF mostly an insulin thing @BackInTheGame78 ? If that’s the case would a low carb / keto dinner or breakfast have an similar effect as fasting?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Is the benefit of IF mostly an insulin thing @BackInTheGame78 ? If that’s the case would a low carb / keto dinner or breakfast have an similar effect as fasting?

IMO, the biggest benefit is that IF burns almost pure fat, 90% of true weight lost is from fat, whereas virtually all other methods studied are 50/50 fat/muscle or lean more towards burning muscle more than fat.

The goal when losing weight should be to spare as much muscle as possible and this helps in that regard.