No real motivation to meet/date girls anymore

[MatureDJ]

Was it a memorable encounter?

Yes. One chick there had a figure like an anime chick.

 

[corrector]

Yes. One chick there had a figure like an anime chick.

What was her working name?

 

[BergischerLöwe]

So no brothers or cousins that can introduce you to women?

No I don't have any brothers and my cousins are ten years younger than me. It's not possible for family or friends to introduce me to women. I can't count on that ever happening

 

[Mike32ct]

No I don't have any brothers and my cousins are ten years younger than me. It's not possible for family or friends to introduce me to women. I can't count on that ever happening

Agree. Being fixed up sounds good in theory but I definitely wouldn’t count on it in real life.

 

[SW15]

I have literally no track record pulling girls irl as I keep saying, so even if I met an attractive single woman in such a location it's pretty much bound to fail. Usually when I come across attractive women in my day to day life I suppress my attraction to them since I know nothing would come of it.

I've never been able to pull that off. Even if I wanted to I never meet single women I'd want to date in real life. The only way I've been able to meet women is online. It sucks but if I didn't use apps I'd very likely still be a virgin.

Your attitude towards approaching in real life is toxic. You are 27, which is late Millennial. As a 27 year old old, you hit puberty around 2010, when tech was already diminishing real life social interactions, and that includes dating interactions.

I have no idea how you've been able to get poontang from tech-based methods. Are you 6'0"+ with big muscles?

Cold approach is never anything that's caught on with me. I'm introverted by nature and cold approach seems rather contrived anyway. Anyone who does cold approach, even if they're good at it, has a low turnover rate. I wouldn't have any greater success trying to cold approach women than I otherwise would have online. Like I've said numerous times on this thread, I've never pulled a girl from start to finish irl, whether it be from cold approach, warm approach, or social circle game. It just ain't gonna happen that way

I don't understand what you mean by low turnover rate. What are you saying?

Approaching strangers is a low percentage effort but so is swiping on apps.

I don't believe much in the concept of a warm approach. I think there are some settings where approaching strangers might be easier than others. That might be considered warm approach.

Social circle is the easiest way to find a girlfriend with the least frustration. Social circle isn't realistic for some.

I already don't really watch porn, especially not any depicting sex between a woman and a man. I always thought it's kinda gay when guys jerk off to porn depicting attractive women being taken by other men. It's like being a cuck or some sort of voyeur.

This is good that you don't watch porn. Most men who are not getting laid are watching a lot of porn.

There's absolutely no part of me that wants children, I would rather go to jail than have a kid lol. I find the idea of me having biological offspring to be disturbing and the very thought of it disgusts me. What really worries me about accidental pregnancy is if I get a girl knocked up and the girl wants to keep it, then I'd be screwed. Plus the ******* politicians are pushing against abortion and that concerns me too.

You're going to have a difficult time with forming longer term relationships with these ideas. Most women want kids and that will become a bigger issue as your dating pool ages. If you're dating women 27-37, more of them are dating with longer term intention and most will want kids at some point. It's very difficult to find a woman through real world approaching who doesn't want kids. With tech-based methods, it's somewhat easier to sit at home and screen for that but will still difficult to find at home. You will cost yourself notches by expressing an opinion of not wanting kids. The best recommendation on this is to keep quiet about not wanting kids.

Kids have the potential to ruin relationships and marriages.

There is some truth to this. The bigger variable about why relationships fail is the passage of time, not kids. The problem is that as time passes, a lot of relationships get to the point of having kids. It's not that common to see a couple together for 10 years and they don't have kids if they met before age 35.

when I was in college there would occasionally be hot girls in my classes, but I would never really try to talk to them because I knew the futility of it. Plus most women who are actually attractive already have boyfriends anyway

This wasn't good. Yes, most of the women in your classes at college likely had boyfriends at the exact moment you would have approached time. It's true that most adults are in some sort of relationship at any given moment. Approaching random women in your classes isn't efficient for finding a way to get your penis wet. Any guy who does this is going to take a lot of rejections but the upside on this is great because eventually a man will find a receptive woman. Can the man withstand all the rejections on the way to finding that receptive woman? This is easier to do in college than in post-college, working world type settings too. There are more attractive women on college campuses than doing daygame in city indoor retail locations (malls, grocery stores, etc) or randomly on the street. Nightlife venues can compete with college campuses for physical attractiveness of women.

This forum has a great college sex thread.....

Observations about college sex life from someone that went to a party school.

I thought I'd share this as someone who went to a party school and was in a fraternity there as well. Not wanting to give too much about myself but I went to UGA and graduated a few years ago. While Athens has its hot girls, I do feel like the quality got worse every year due to the admission...

www.sosuave.net

Being fixed up sounds good in theory but I definitely wouldn’t count on it in real life.

Fewer people are getting social circle introductions. Social circle introductions are accounting for fewer relationships. The biggest takeaway from this chart is that online dating has replaced social circle introduction for people forming their current relationships in the last 25-30 years. Social circle introductions have been falling since the 1990s so the average person likely has a weaker social circle now.

 

[kavi]

I dont blame OP. In todays culture there are just too few avenues to meet women other than structured dating enviroments such as OLD. But OLD provides crappy shallow experiences.

At the current moment modern culture does not have ways for men and women to interact and meet in ways that allow for fun, interesting and engaging experiences. The fact is both women and men want this.

But social circles are pretty much dead, Bars and Clubs are dead and OLD is dead for this.

This is why icba to cold-approach and I dont use OLD. I have had good interactions with women I have met IRL but I was lucky to come into these opportunities and I was able to capitalize on them.

IMO, one thing I am looking at, is thinking about creating social functions like parties where ppl can meet and interact, where there is some kind of cultural code underlying it unlike Capitalism where say you go to bar, pub, outing, OLD or whatever, the host (which is Tinder, the bar or the event) doesnt really have much social expectation from its clientele, just wanting to take their money.

So the reason why men and women are not interacting much in effective ways is due to Capitalism. See a Bar just wants to get punters in, and charge for drinks. If you come in and pay for drinks you get to stay. There is no expectation of certain social or unsocial behaviours. It is just a money thing. Same with OLD. Same with dating events. When we go outside ppl are just walking around, from either work to home, or shopping to home. So its mostly just work or shopping, everything is just about spending money, so our relationships cannot fit inot this paradigm. Outside our homes is not a communal or social space, the streets are not a social space, nor the bars or coffee houses. These are capitalism places, to spend ones money but there is no social norm regarding how one interacts with ppl one doesnt already 'know' in a bar, coffee place or in the streets.

I am not talking about politics like Capitalsim vs Socialism. But i am referring to Socialism in the sense of 'social' or communal behaviours and relationships. As a culture modern cutlure has not allowed for people to socialise in our cities and towns. In days gone by this was less important as many ppl just got married to their high-school gf or some girl from the town, those ppl in the past didnt have to socialise much to meet potential partners. But modern society is different and men and women have high expectations of socialising with the opposite gender where attraction can happen. It is just that our cities, towns and culture is not conducive to that. If we were all living in a traditional cutlure of arranged marriages and such then the lack of social spaces and culture wouldnt matter, cos that is what our cities and capitalism is designed for.

But in the modern world, to improve the outcomes for relationships, there has to be a lot work done to re-arrange society and civilization to allow this to happen.

 

[GoodMan32]

He is definitely not incel.



That's easy to do, especially if you look at escort ads for fapping. I know many escorts who have put their ads up for years, months, new ones on the scene, etc.... so it's pretty easy for me to guess who the cop is and who is not, lol! I'm more worried if the escort has a racist ad than if she's a cop.

I've seen a lot of escort ads saying no black men. Some (a smaller amount) say no Hispanic men too. Being white, I've yet to come across any escort ad saying they would turn me down for my race.

I've been turned down by escorts for other reasons, however.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

Agree. Being fixed up sounds good in theory but I definitely wouldn’t count on it in real life.

Maybe it would have worked if I were living in the Old Country in 19th Century or something but certainly not in present day America

 

[corrector]

I've been turned down by escorts for other reasons, however.

Such as? There is a black youtuber who claims to hack those type of ads, plus at least a couple of black posters who claimed to have went around the no blacks ad (ie guess they have such good looks that they dont care). It would feel like a paid sexual conquest is one played with an escort with such an ad. It would feel earned like a real conquest. That is the feeling of validation of someone feeling attracted to you because they want you, not just your money. You can only get that feeling if you would have beem excluded.

Ironically, one white poster was rejected because she thought he was arab. A dark skinned white guy from South Europe could get rejected by being misidentified as another race at the door.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

Your attitude towards approaching in real life is toxic. You are 27, which is late Millennial. As a 27 year old old, you hit puberty around 2010, when tech was already diminishing real life social interactions, and that includes dating interactions.

I have no idea how you've been able to get poontang from tech-based methods. Are you 6'0"+ with big muscles?



I don't understand what you mean by low turnover rate. What are you saying?

Approaching strangers is a low percentage effort but so is swiping on apps.

I don't believe much in the concept of a warm approach. I think there are some settings where approaching strangers might be easier than others. That might be considered warm approach.

Social circle is the easiest way to find a girlfriend with the least frustration. Social circle isn't realistic for some.



This is good that you don't watch porn. Most men who are not getting laid are watching a lot of porn.



You're going to have a difficult time with forming longer term relationships with these ideas. Most women want kids and that will become a bigger issue as your dating pool ages. If you're dating women 27-37, more of them are dating with longer term intention and most will want kids at some point. It's very difficult to find a woman through real world approaching who doesn't want kids. With tech-based methods, it's somewhat easier to sit at home and screen for that but will still difficult to find at home. You will cost yourself notches by expressing an opinion of not wanting kids. The best recommendation on this is to keep quiet about not wanting kids.



There is some truth to this. The bigger variable about why relationships fail is the passage of time, not kids. The problem is that as time passes, a lot of relationships get to the point of having kids. It's not that common to see a couple together for 10 years and they don't have kids if they met before age 35.



This wasn't good. Yes, most of the women in your classes at college likely had boyfriends at the exact moment you would have approached time. It's true that most adults are in some sort of relationship at any given moment. Approaching random women in your classes isn't efficient for finding a way to get your penis wet. Any guy who does this is going to take a lot of rejections but the upside on this is great because eventually a man will find a receptive woman. Can the man withstand all the rejections on the way to finding that receptive woman? This is easier to do in college than in post-college, working world type settings too. There are more attractive women on college campuses than doing daygame in city indoor retail locations (malls, grocery stores, etc) or randomly on the street. Nightlife venues can compete with college campuses for physical attractiveness of women.

This forum has a great college sex thread.....

Observations about college sex life from someone that went to a party school.

I thought I'd share this as someone who went to a party school and was in a fraternity there as well. Not wanting to give too much about myself but I went to UGA and graduated a few years ago. While Athens has its hot girls, I do feel like the quality got worse every year due to the admission...

www.sosuave.net

Fewer people are getting social circle introductions. Social circle introductions are accounting for fewer relationships. The biggest takeaway from this chart is that online dating has replaced social circle introduction for people forming their current relationships in the last 25-30 years. Social circle introductions have been falling since the 1990s so the average person likely has a weaker social circle now.

View attachment 10487

Based on this, what should I be doing? From tech based methods I'd say any result I've gotten from them have just been by luck. I'd say I'm on the higher end of average in terms of looks, I'm in decent shape but not really shredded or anything. Could stand to lose some bodyfat but it's been very hard to try and get bodyfat percentage below 20%. As for how I look like most people say I look sort of like Blake from Workaholics but not quite as skinny.

By turnover rate I mean how many approaches before a successful encounter.

Social circle is indeed not realistic in my case. My social circle is small, consisting only of my bandmates and a few people I've met in my religious activities. I'm introverted so the idea of a large social circle doesn't appeal to me much to begin with.

I'm aware that unfortunately most women want kids but there has to be enough who don't. Additionally I'm not exactly looking for women who are my own age, but rather women that are a few years younger than I am. Really I'm going for the 20-25 range. As it stands now the oldest woman I've done anything with was 22 or 23 if I remember correctly. In any case I'm going to get a vasectomy in the near future and then I'll never have to worry about accidental pregnancy.

In my case approaching women anywhere won't yield me a good result. Furthermore any time I've sought to develop the skills necessary to cold approach I've always fallen off the wagon. I'd have to work at it for a very long time before I'd get anything out of it, to the point where it isn't worth it to try and learn. Cold approach just doesn't apply to a guy like me.

Really it doesn't seem like there's any good answer to by situation. It sucks to think about but if I were around 100 or more years ago in Old Country I would already have a wife, or at least have none of the problems that I describe. But in the present day I'm kinda screwed

 

[BergischerLöwe]

I dont blame OP. In todays culture there are just too few avenues to meet women other than structured dating enviroments such as OLD. But OLD provides crappy shallow experiences.

At the current moment modern culture does not have ways for men and women to interact and meet in ways that allow for fun, interesting and engaging experiences. The fact is both women and men want this.

But social circles are pretty much dead, Bars and Clubs are dead and OLD is dead for this.

This is why icba to cold-approach and I dont use OLD. I have had good interactions with women I have met IRL but I was lucky to come into these opportunities and I was able to capitalize on them.

IMO, one thing I am looking at, is thinking about creating social functions like parties where ppl can meet and interact, where there is some kind of cultural code underlying it unlike Capitalism where say you go to bar, pub, outing, OLD or whatever, the host (which is Tinder, the bar or the event) doesnt really have much social expectation from its clientele, just wanting to take their money.

So the reason why men and women are not interacting much in effective ways is due to Capitalism. See a Bar just wants to get punters in, and charge for drinks. If you come in and pay for drinks you get to stay. There is no expectation of certain social or unsocial behaviours. It is just a money thing. Same with OLD. Same with dating events. When we go outside ppl are just walking around, from either work to home, or shopping to home. So its mostly just work or shopping, everything is just about spending money, so our relationships cannot fit inot this paradigm. Outside our homes is not a communal or social space, the streets are not a social space, nor the bars or coffee houses. These are capitalism places, to spend ones money but there is no social norm regarding how one interacts with ppl one doesnt already 'know' in a bar, coffee place or in the streets.

I am not talking about politics like Capitalsim vs Socialism. But i am referring to Socialism in the sense of 'social' or communal behaviours and relationships. As a culture modern cutlure has not allowed for people to socialise in our cities and towns. In days gone by this was less important as many ppl just got married to their high-school gf or some girl from the town, those ppl in the past didnt have to socialise much to meet potential partners. But modern society is different and men and women have high expectations of socialising with the opposite gender where attraction can happen. It is just that our cities, towns and culture is not conducive to that. If we were all living in a traditional cutlure of arranged marriages and such then the lack of social spaces and culture wouldnt matter, cos that is what our cities and capitalism is designed for.

But in the modern world, to improve the outcomes for relationships, there has to be a lot work done to re-arrange society and civilization to allow this to happen.

That's what I've always thought. In ancient times I would have no problem finding women at all. But in this backwards modern society people have to do all this work for a reward that isn't worth it. It seems like there really isn't anything I can do besides hope that luck is in my favour. But even if I met a compatible woman in real life somehow I still wouldn't be able to do anything with that sense I only ever learned how to get girls from apps

 

[GoodMan32]

Such as? There is a black youtuber who claims to hack those type of ads, plus at least a couple of black posters who claimed to have went around the no blacks ad (ie guess they have such good looks that they dont care). It would feel like a paid sexual conquest is one played with an escort with such an ad. It would feel earned like a real conquest. That is the feeling of validation of someone feeling attracted to you because they want you, not just your money. You can only get that feeling if you would have beem excluded.

Ironically, one white poster was rejected because she thought he was arab. A dark skinned white guy from South Europe could get rejected by being misidentified as another race at the door.

One escort turned me down because of my age (she had 20 or so years on me). She said I was too young.

Another escort turned me down because I failed to pass her insane screening process. For starters, she thought it was a red flag that a guy my age had no social media (she likes to screen clients by checking out their social media account). As an alternative to the social media screening, she wanted my employment information. I refused to give her my employment information.

Between the no social media and the fact I wouldn't give her my employment information, she was convinced I was a cop.

I've agreed to reasonable screenings from escorts. I draw the line at giving the escort my employment information.

As for the black ban a lot of escorts have, I've heard escorts give 2 different explanations. Some escorts use the criminal stereotype to justify excluding black men (This is also why some escort ads will say "No black men under 40," as they're more trusting of older black men).

The other explanation I've heard: If the escort has a black pimp, sometimes the pimp wants to be the only black man to be with her. When black men get around the ban, perhaps it could be because the pimp is willing to make the occasional exception on a case-by-case basis.

As for Arab men, I've never seen an escort ad that specifically excluded Arab men (possibly because there aren't very many Arab men where I live). However, I've heard an escort speak negatively of Arab and Indian clients. So I totally believe some escorts might exclude Arab men.

 

[corrector]

One escort turned me down because of my age (she had 20 or so years on me). She said I was too young.

Another escort turned me down because I failed to pass her insane screening process. For starters, she thought it was a red flag that a guy my age had no social media (she likes to screen clients by checking out their social media account). As an alternative to the social media screening, she wanted my employment information. I refused to give her my employment information.

Between the no social media and the fact I wouldn't give her my employment information, she was convinced I was a cop.

I've agreed to reasonable screenings from escorts. I draw the line at giving the escort my employment information.

As for the black ban a lot of escorts have, I've heard escorts give 2 different explanations. Some escorts use the criminal stereotype to justify excluding black men (This is also why some escort ads will say "No black men under 40," as they're more trusting of older black men).

The other explanation I've heard: If the escort has a black pimp, sometimes the pimp wants to be the only black man to be with her. When black men get around the ban, perhaps it could be because the pimp is willing to make the occasional exception on a case-by-case basis.

As for Arab men, I've never seen an escort ad that specifically excluded Arab men (possibly because there aren't very many Arab men where I live). However, I've heard an escort speak negatively of Arab and Indian clients. So I totally believe some escorts might exclude Arab men.

Thanks for sharing this info. I did not know midtier escorts screen like that. Its still nondiscriminatory.

From the black people who visited no black escort I dont think the escorts asked any permission from their black pimp. Perhaps @Gamisch and @Murk can shed some light on how they hacked through.

As for the black youtuber he claims that he is married and fluffs about having a great job, etc.... He is a prolific hormongerer and has tonnes of videos about his escort conquest as a black man.

Personally I dont visit escorts but I was not rejected on race when I visited three establishments 9 years ago. I may be expressive of the issue with onlyfans escort who ask my background after they see my c0ck on a d1ck rating. I always like my potential escorts to rate my c0ck on onlyfans before I imaginarily want to see them.

 

[Canadian_Man]

In addition I’ve never met a woman I’ve felt a true romantic connection with. There has not been a time in my life when I’ve felt a significant “spark” with any woman ive hooked up with, I’ve always felt each time that I’m settling in some way.

I think it's either that I'm so concerned about accidental pregnancy that I deem sex as not being worth the risk, that I got tired of hooking up with the fairly mediocre women that I usually attract, or that I've realized I'll never find what I really want out of dating and that the right woman for me doesn't exist.

I've also only been able to meet girls from apps and over the years dating apps have given me increasingly diminishing returns. Meeting a woman in real life, making the initial interaction in real life, and ending up hooking up with her is something that's literally never happened to me and as far as I'm concerned it's impossible.

My life and personality just don't loan themselves to that. I'm never in any real life situations where I'm around single women I could date anyway.

If I were in a band with a female musician I wouldn't pursue her if that's what you're implying. ... Plus that would be unprofessional anyway if found myself in that situation and I tried to do something like that.

When I've met a new girl on an app I get excited about seeing her but when I do in real life it's underwhelming and usually I don't pursue it any further than that

"Just to get things clear from your pov; what does it mean to have things in common?" - Gamisch
Like similar interests, outlook on life, values, music taste, etc.

I've considered having a vasectomy but I haven't gone thru with it yet. What's made me apprehensive is that some guys report horrible chronic pain after getting one, and with my luck I will too.

What really worries me about accidental pregnancy is if I get a girl knocked up and the girl wants to keep it, then I'd be screwed. Plus the ******* politicians are pushing against abortion and that concerns me too.

I can't find a girl who's both hot and emotionally compatible with me. It feels like the kind of women I really want are out of my reach even though there isn't any logical reason they should be.

Maybe that's why I've lost motivation now, what I've gotten out of dating was never really satisfying anyway

I can't see myself being successful in cold approach if I tried it, it wouldn't bring my any better results than what I've been able to achieve online.

Warm approach and social circle game are also out.

The former wouldn't work because I'm never in any situations where there's women I could date.

The latter wouldn't work because there's no women in my social circle, and even if there were I wouldn't want to make a move on such women since I'd really prefer not to sleep with women that are friends of my friends. I like to be more discreet than that when it comes to dating, I'd rather pursue women that my friends don't know.

But I have absolutely no outlet to meet women I'd actually be excited about dating. I'm stuck in the position I'm in and I'm not sure if there's a way out

I've thought about doing that but it still would be a long shot. I have literally no track record pulling girls irl as I keep saying, so even if I met an attractive single woman in such a location it's pretty much bound to fail. Usually when I come across attractive women in my day to day life I suppress my attraction to them since I know nothing would come of it. Like for example back when I was in college there would occasionally be hot girls in my classes, but I would never really try to talk to them because I knew the futility of it. Plus most women who are actually attractive already have boyfriends anyway

Idk I don't really like social media that much and I don't want to spend that much time invested in it. Do I really need to become an influencer just to have attention from women?

It really would be nice to meet a woman that I really like and to have a life with her, but indeed I seriously doubt it's very likely to happen. Statistically it will not, in fact.

Sometimes I get self conscious that I haven't found love at this age, especially now when I see so many people in my age group getting married, but I remind myself that for them it will likely not last. Those getting married now will divorce, or the woman will lose her looks, or they'll cheat on each other, or they'll have children and be emotionally and mentally drained by the burden of raising them. I always have to remind myself that I actually have it pretty good, even though most likely what I'm looking for with women/dating will never come to pass.

Social circle is indeed not realistic in my case. My social circle is small, consisting only of my bandmates and a few people I've met in my religious activities. I'm introverted so the idea of a large social circle doesn't appeal to me much to begin with.

In my case approaching women anywhere won't yield me a good result. Furthermore any time I've sought to develop the skills necessary to cold approach I've always fallen off the wagon. I'd have to work at it for a very long time before I'd get anything out of it, to the point where it isn't worth it to try and learn. Cold approach just doesn't apply to a guy like me.

Really it doesn't seem like there's any good answer to by situation. It sucks to think about but if I were around 100 or more years ago in Old Country I would already have a wife, or at least have none of the problems that I describe. But in the present day I'm kinda screwed

That's what I've always thought. In ancient times I would have no problem finding women at all. But in this backwards modern society people have to do all this work for a reward that isn't worth it. It seems like there really isn't anything I can do besides hope that luck is in my favour.

But even if I met a compatible woman in real life somehow I still wouldn't be able to do anything with that sense I only ever learned how to get girls from apps

Re-read all of the segments I quoted.

Your mindset is hurting your chances.

I went through a phase in my life, during a deeper depression, when I also used to have these kinds of thoughts, and patterns of thought.

There's a lot going on here with you.

To put some words to it:
- you're too in your head
- you're demoralized
- you're self-defeating
- you suffer from "decision paralysis"
- you lack confidence
- you're frustrated by modern dating realities,
- you lack patience, and,
- you hold yourself back, with rationalizations for why "this or that won't work"

Going through your posts for specific examples:
- you jump ship with a woman if it is "mediocre" initially, no "spark" ... sometimes things take time to develop, and/or, your pre-conceived expectations not being met leaves you unsatisified
- you're afraid of impregnating a woman, despite many forms of birth control, and, you've considered a vasectomy, but you even have rationalizations holding you back from that
- you have convinced yourself that you're lifestyle & personality are not conducive to meeting the type of woman you want, that you're stuck, and that you cannot change this
- you reject opportunities that you do have, or could have, for one reason or another


Notice that I said that I used to be prone to some of these downward spiralling patterns of thought.

It took a lot of time and effort, but I did improve my mindset, and consequently my mental health.

You can as well.


I'm also pretty introverted, don't have much drive to have a huge social circle, though I know how I would go about it if I wanted to grow it.

Friendships and relationships grow with time and frequent repeated encounters.

Find somewhere that you like to hang out, in a semi-social environment, whether that be a quiet pub or some small weekly/bi-weekly music venues/events, and spend time there. Become a "regular", make friends with other "regulars" at those places.

Doing so will also improve your social skills. Have fun doing it, without focusing on the women aspect of it. You'll become more attractive to women with time as well as a result.

The only way you are going to get the experiences you want, and improve your self-confidence, is by doing.

You cannot think yourself out of this problem, and trying to do so becomes counter-productive at some point, like it has for you.

Get out of your comfort zone, as @Bingo-Player said, even if just a bit at a time.



In regards to a lack of an immediate "spark", I've once heard a similar thing put into a useful perspective.

How often do you meet a new "best friend", who you quickly "click" with have a great connection with?

Only once or twice a decade, typically.

The same goes for women.

You'll meet plenty of good friends and women otherwise, but holding out for the high expectation of "best friend"-tier, rejecting all others, isn't the best strategy. It will rob you of experiences that you would benefit from.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

Re-read all of the segments I quoted.

Your mindset is hurting your chances.

I went through a phase in my life, during a deeper depression, when I also used to have these kinds of thoughts, and patterns of thought.

There's a lot going on here with you.

To put some words to it:
- you're too in your head
- you're demoralized
- you're self-defeating
- you suffer from "decision paralysis"
- you lack confidence
- you're frustrated by modern dating realities,
- you lack patience, and,
- you hold yourself back, with rationalizations for why "this or that won't work"

Going through your posts for specific examples:
- you jump ship with a woman if it is "mediocre" initially, no "spark" ... sometimes things take time to develop, and/or, your pre-conceived expectations not being met leaves you unsatisified
- you're afraid of impregnating a woman, despite many forms of birth control, and, you've considered a vasectomy, but you even have rationalizations holding you back from that
- you have convinced yourself that you're lifestyle & personality are not conducive to meeting the type of woman you want, that you're stuck, and that you cannot change this
- you reject opportunities that you do have, or could have, for one reason or another


Notice that I said that I used to be prone to some of these downward spiralling patterns of thought.

It took a lot of time and effort, but I did improve my mindset, and consequently my mental health.

You can as well.


I'm also pretty introverted, don't have much drive to have a huge social circle, though I know how I would go about it if I wanted to grow it.

Friendships and relationships grow with time and frequent repeated encounters.

Find somewhere that you like to hang out, in a semi-social environment, whether that be a quiet pub or some small weekly/bi-weekly music venues/events, and spend time there. Become a "regular", make friends with other "regulars" at those places.

Doing so will also improve your social skills. Have fun doing it, without focusing on the women aspect of it. You'll become more attractive to women with time as well as a result.

The only way you are going to get the experiences you want, and improve your self-confidence, is by doing.

You cannot think yourself out of this problem, and trying to do so becomes counter-productive at some point, like it has for you.

Get out of your comfort zone, as @Bingo-Player said, even if just a bit at a time.



In regards to a lack of an immediate "spark", I've once heard a similar thing put into a useful perspective.

How often do you meet a new "best friend", who you quickly "click" with have a great connection with?

Only once or twice a decade, typically.

The same goes for women.

You'll meet plenty of good friends and women otherwise, but holding out for the high expectation of "best friend"-tier, rejecting all others, isn't the best strategy. It will rob you of experiences that you would benefit from.

This is all good, you seem to have analyzed my situation rather well. You're quite right that there's a lot going on here, my situation is extremely complex with many issues at play. I've done that step of becoming a regular somewhere to an extent, every week I attend lectures at my local temple since I converted to that religion two years ago and I've met some good people there. I don't expect it to ever be a place where I could meet women but I'm not going there with the intention of meeting women either. Doing this has indeed led to me being more socially actualized and now I'm a part of that community, but in the grand scheme of things I don't have any avenues to meet women I could date.

Regarding what you say about lack of spark, yes I guess it is true that sometimes those things take time to develop, but in general I want to have the experience of meeting a woman that I'm really excited about. If I think back to my experiences with women most of them have been pretty mid. As I said I've never met a woman that I'm all that crazy for, and at the end of the day it's like searching for a unicorn.

Are there any things I could be doing in addition to what you've already said? Seems like your insight on what I'm going thru is good

 

[Canadian_Man]

I've done that step of becoming a regular somewhere to an extent, every week I attend lectures at my local temple since I converted to that religion two years ago and I've met some good people there. I don't expect it to ever be a place where I could meet women but I'm not going there with the intention of meeting women either. Doing this has indeed led to me being more socially actualized and now

That's a great start.

I suggest chosing a second place to be a regular, somewhere you could potentially indirectly or directly meet women occasionally.

One of my spots was a quiet restaurant/pub, which had multiple "regulars" which would spend time there during non-peak hours (often in the evenings). They also had open mic once per week, which drew a different crowd of folks whom I also got along with.

Made friends with the other regulars (variety of ages and genders), and staff (many of them younger women).

I never tried to meet women for dating through this place, but I could have.

You're quite right that there's a lot going on here, my situation is extremely complex with many issues at play.

In one sense, yes.

However, in another sense, it can be a lot simpler.

Reduce the problem into smaller work-able parts.

If it remains "huge" and "complex", that can lead to being overwhelmed and not taking action.

Small steps at a time are necessary.

Regarding what you say about lack of spark, yes I guess it is true that sometimes those things take time to develop, but in general I want to have the experience of meeting a woman that I'm really excited about. If I think back to my experiences with women most of them have been pretty mid. As I said I've never met a woman that I'm all that crazy for, and at the end of the day it's like searching for a unicorn.

Perhaps try to find peace with a "mid" prospect, gain experience, and maybe it will grow into something more meaningful with time.

This strikes me as a perception issue.

When one has high expectations that aren't met, it's easy to be let down and lose desire for that thing/hobby/person.

Your idea of how it "ought to be" will probably change with time and experience as well.

You might find alternative ways to fulfil your need for deep connection and meaning, outside of women, and as a result no longer seek it out with women as much.



Some of these things I'm still working out myself.

Have been sitting with the message from this video for a while:

It rings true based on my experience, but you should eventually give it some thought as well and/or seek out the experiences to better assess it.

I took the implication of the video to be that seeking out a strong "spark", the feeling of "being deeply in love", can actually be counterproductive to your dating life (assuming an intention of LTRs), because it can diminish the woman's experience of you, and thus, the health and duration of the relationship.

Placing a higher priority on other qualities/aspects of a relationship is probably a better way to go.

Other men here can probably better assess that than I can though, as I said, I'm still figuring some of this out.

Are there any things I could be doing in addition to what you've already said?

In the short term, I would focus on improving my perceptions and mindset if I were you.

There are different ways you could go about that.

Maybe casually dating women you're attracted to but don't have an overwhelming "spark" with can help, to gain new experiences.

Or maybe work on your social circle and finding more inner peace without women for the time being.

There are pros and cons to either approach.

The pros:
-Casually dating could give you new experiences to challenge your perceptions with, and improve your social and dating skills with women in general
-Not dating at all leaves you more time to improve other areas of your life, which can also lead to a better experience of dating once you decide to give it another go

The cons:
-Casually dating could reinforce your negative perceptions if it goes poorly, depending on how you internalize it
-Not dating at all could leave it more daunting to start when you eventually do try, leaves you out of practice



You should probably sit with it for a little while (less than a week or two).

Make a decision of a short term strategy/direction for growth, with consideration of what's likely a good strategy for you given the nuances of your situation.

It doesn't need to be a best strategy, or a perfect strategy, you just need to get started on something which is likely to have at least some net positive impact.

Break the strategy down into simple & small goals.

Go down that path for at least a handful of months, without thinking about it much more.

More action, less thinking, once you have chosen your path.

Have fun with whichever direction you take.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

That's a great start.

I suggest chosing a second place to be a regular, somewhere you could potentially indirectly or directly meet women occasionally.

One of my spots was a quiet restaurant/pub, which had multiple "regulars" which would spend time there during non-peak hours (often in the evenings). They also had open mic once per week, which drew a different crowd of folks whom I also got along with.

Made friends with the other regulars (variety of ages and genders), and staff (many of them younger women).

I never tried to meet women for dating through this place, but I could have.




In one sense, yes.

However, in another sense, it can be a lot simpler.

Reduce the problem into smaller work-able parts.

If it remains "huge" and "complex", that can lead to being overwhelmed and not taking action.

Small steps at a time are necessary.



Perhaps try to find peace with a "mid" prospect, gain experience, and maybe it will grow into something more meaningful with time.

This strikes me as a perception issue.

When one has high expectations that aren't met, it's easy to be let down and lose desire for that thing/hobby/person.

Your idea of how it "ought to be" will probably change with time and experience as well.

You might find alternative ways to fulfil your need for deep connection and meaning, outside of women, and as a result no longer seek it out with women as much.



Some of these things I'm still working out myself.

Have been sitting with the message from this video for a while:

It rings true based on my experience, but you should eventually give it some thought as well and/or seek out the experiences to better assess it.

I took the implication of the video to be that seeking out a strong "spark", the feeling of "being deeply in love", can actually be counterproductive to your dating life (assuming an intention of LTRs), because it can diminish the woman's experience of you, and thus, the health and duration of the relationship.

Placing a higher priority on other qualities/aspects of a relationship is probably a better way to go.

Other men here can probably better assess that than I can though, as I said, I'm still figuring some of this out.





In the short term, I would focus on improving my perceptions and mindset if I were you.

There are different ways you could go about that.

Maybe casually dating women you're attracted to but don't have an overwhelming "spark" with can help, to gain new experiences.

Or maybe work on your social circle and finding more inner peace without women for the time being.

There are pros and cons to either approach.

The pros:
-Casually dating could give you new experiences to challenge your perceptions with, and improve your social and dating skills with women in general
-Not dating at all leaves you more time to improve other areas of your life, which can also lead to a better experience of dating once you decide to give it another go

The cons:
-Casually dating could reinforce your negative perceptions if it goes poorly, depending on how you internalize it
-Not dating at all could leave it more daunting to start when you eventually do try, leaves you out of practice



You should probably sit with it for a little while (less than a week or two).

Make a decision of a short term strategy/direction for growth, with consideration of what's likely a good strategy for you given the nuances of your situation.

It doesn't need to be a best strategy, or a perfect strategy, you just need to get started on something which is likely to have at least some net positive impact.

Break the strategy down into simple & small goals.

Go down that path for at least a handful of months, without thinking about it much more.

More action, less thinking, once you have chosen your path.

Have fun with whichever direction you take.

Perhaps I should indeed find a second place to be a regular at, but right now idk where that would be. In any case I do think a big part of the problem is that I'm not usually in situations where I even talk to women in real life regardless of context. A couple days ago was the 4th of July, and every year I always go to the same party and always wind up talking to the daughters of a family friend who are close to me in age and whom I've known all my life, and in any given year it's usually the most conversation I have with any women in roughly the same age group and life situation as me. Other than that one day a year I never really find myself talking to women around my age at all. I realize this has to change but at this point idk how exactly I'd accomplish that so that I'm at least having meaningful conversations with women other than every 4th of July when I invariably end up talking to the family friends' daughters.

I watched the video and I've observed many of the same points in my previous interactions with women. Particularly I've been in quite a few situations where it's the woman who's the "adorer", so to speak. Indeed I've been in situations where the woman is really excited about me. However usually this has happened when it's a girl that's kinda mid in terms of looks. There's been a few times where the girl is pretty damn attracted to me but then I'm kinda indifferent about her. Even though in those situations it was still fun when I hooked up with those girls in the long term I never saw it going anywhere because the attraction was so asymmetrical. It always felt weird when a girl was really into me but I wasn't as physically attracted to her. It felt like I was being insincere for not being as into her and that I was just using her for sex or something to that effect. I just wish I could meet a girl who was into me like the women I just described but a bit hotter than the women I'm accustomed to getting.

Physical attraction is important to me so if I could land women who are just slightly more attractive then I'd be more likely to stick around with them. I'm not going for instagram models or anything like that either, really what I'm looking for in terms of looks is women that are kinda pretty but not overwhelmingly so. For whatever reason I'm more attracted to women fitting that description than those that could be described as 9s and 10s. If I think back to the women I've been with and how attracted to them I was, a lot of times they had a decent face but it was their bodies that docked a few attractiveness points off of there. I've never been with women that were really fat or anything but on average it's the case that usually the girls I've hooked up with weren't as attractive in the body as they could have been. Even my ex girlfriend was like this; she had a pretty face and a nice rack but she could have stood to lose a couple pounds. At least any fat she gained went either to her butt or her hips, so she still had curves and all that but she would have been a bit hotter if she had lost a slight amount of weight regardless. I myself lift weights and try to take care of my physical health as best I can but the girls I almost always attract don't really do that it seems. If I could land a chick with like a 7/10 face but a hot body then I'd be far more likely to keep her around.

Sure I could go and casually date "mid" prospects but I probably wouldn't be all that fulfilled by that. After all, hooking up with mid tier women is most of what my experiences with women actually is. Part of my problem, I think, is that what I want is to meet a girl who I'm more excited about, but I haven't been able to achieve that and instead I've just taken any mid woman from apps that are willing to go out with me. Hopefully I can find some kind of balance; find a woman who's enthusiastic about being with me but is still hot enough to keep me interested in the long run. This seems easier said than done tho, it feels like the women I'd really be attracted to physically are ever so slightly out of my reach. Then again, lookswise I might not be quite what most women are attracted to either. Like I said earlier I look a lot like Blake from Workaholics but less skinny and I have a handlebar mustache. It's not a look many women are going for as far as what they want their partners to look. My face is decently attractive as far as I can tell but I suffer from the same flaw that I've described the women I've been with as having, that I could stand to lose bodyfat. I want to get to below 20% bodyfat but so far I haven't been able to achieve this.

I think as far as what I should do working on my social circle and inner peace is a better bet than trying to date any more of these mid tier girls. Dating mid women would basically be maintaining the status quo. I'd rather develop myself so that I can attract the kind of woman I really want to date but I'm not sure how exactly I'd go about that. The situation I have is indeed a very complex one and all of the things I'd need to do are overwhelming to me. Also since I am increasing in age I feel like I'm running out of time. The way I see it if I reach the age of 30 and I'm still in this situation I don't think I'd actually be able to dig myself out of it, at that point I think it would be too late to change my course. Additionally I always wanted to have the experience of falling in love while still young, so if I turn old before that happens it won't hit in the same way. In the grand scheme of things tho I don't feel like my expectations are that high, I just want women slightly better than the ones I've already been able to attain.

 

[BergischerLöwe]

So after reading this thread again and pondering everything written therein I still don't really know what I should be doing. This is a pretty complex issue and there's quite a few things going on here. It doesn't really appear that there's any good solution for the following reasons:

1. I'm still pretty damn apathetic about meeting girls right now, still don't exactly know why but my motivation to try any meet and hook up with girls is pretty much at an all time low. I haven't had any sex in nearly four years and strangely it doesn't really bother me. With how long I've gone without it, it almost feels like I'm a virgin again.

2. Even if I managed to rouse myself from my indifference, potential ways I could meet women are extremely limited. I've been railroaded into solely relying on apps and to this day everything I know about how to meet women is in the context of using apps. However as I've discussed before apps have given me increasingly diminished returns over the years with respect to the quantity and quality of matches. I rarely get matches anymore and the ones I get don't really interest me that much. I have no way of meeting women in real life, nor can I count on meeting women thru social circle or being introduced to them via friends or family.

3. If in the very unlikely event that I would meet a woman in real life, and I was attracted to her and she was single and dateable there's no way I'd actually be able to capitalize on that opportunity and get a date out of it. Since apps have been my sole way of meeting women I've dated or hooked up with, I have zero experience pulling women I've met irl as I've reiterated numerous times. Basically I have no confidence that I would be able to pull a woman without using apps since I have no prior experience doing so. I have no idea where or how I'd ever have a reliable way of meeting women irl anyway so the chance that I could meet any I could date is remote. As far as I know there's not really any place I could go or anything I could do to meet women without apps. There's just absolutely nothing I can conceive of to turn this situation around, I'm stuck in the present state I'm in and there's no changing it.

4. I am increasing in age. In a few short years I'll be 30 and I'll begin to lose my looks and my hair will start falling out and then I'll never be able to attract any women ever again. In addition I've reached the age where everyone is already paired up and in long term relationships or married and the pool of available women is becoming increasingly small. The older I get, the fewer I'll be able to choose from. Also as I get older the women I meet will be more and more likely to have kids, and I absolutely refuse to date single mothers. The door is rapidly closing on the prospect of having a meaningful love life when I'm still young and I'm really starting to feel it.

With all these above points I truly feel like there isn't any way out of the situation I'm in. It really doesn't look like there's any good potential solutions on how to remedy this. Considering all the above points, what would all of you do if you were me? I'm eager to find out if there's any options for me to remedy these problems, or if it's indeed over

 

[corrector]

So after reading this thread again and pondering everything written therein I still don't really know what I should be doing. This is a pretty complex issue and there's quite a few things going on here. It doesn't really appear that there's any good solution for the following reasons:

1. I'm still pretty damn apathetic about meeting girls right now, still don't exactly know why but my motivation to try any meet and hook up with girls is pretty much at an all time low. I haven't had any sex in nearly four years and strangely it doesn't really bother me. With how long I've gone without it, it almost feels like I'm a virgin again.

2. Even if I managed to rouse myself from my indifference, potential ways I could meet women are extremely limited. I've been railroaded into solely relying on apps and to this day everything I know about how to meet women is in the context of using apps. However as I've discussed before apps have given me increasingly diminished returns over the years with respect to the quantity and quality of matches. I rarely get matches anymore and the ones I get don't really interest me that much. I have no way of meeting women in real life, nor can I count on meeting women thru social circle or being introduced to them via friends or family.

3. If in the very unlikely event that I would meet a woman in real life, and I was attracted to her and she was single and dateable there's no way I'd actually be able to capitalize on that opportunity and get a date out of it. Since apps have been my sole way of meeting women I've dated or hooked up with, I have zero experience pulling women I've met irl as I've reiterated numerous times. Basically I have no confidence that I would be able to pull a woman without using apps since I have no prior experience doing so. I have no idea where or how I'd ever have a reliable way of meeting women irl anyway so the chance that I could meet any I could date is remote. As far as I know there's not really any place I could go or anything I could do to meet women without apps. There's just absolutely nothing I can conceive of to turn this situation around, I'm stuck in the present state I'm in and there's no changing it.

4. I am increasing in age. In a few short years I'll be 30 and I'll begin to lose my looks and my hair will start falling out and then I'll never be able to attract any women ever again. In addition I've reached the age where everyone is already paired up and in long term relationships or married and the pool of available women is becoming increasingly small. The older I get, the fewer I'll be able to choose from. Also as I get older the women I meet will be more and more likely to have kids, and I absolutely refuse to date single mothers. The door is rapidly closing on the prospect of having a meaningful love life when I'm still young and I'm really starting to feel it.

With all these above points I truly feel like there isn't any way out of the situation I'm in. It really doesn't look like there's any good potential solutions on how to remedy this. Considering all the above points, what would all of you do if you were me? I'm eager to find out if there's any options for me to remedy these problems, or if it's indeed over

I am looking at a reddit thread called escort clients and was shocked to see how many people wrote that they helped them meet real women by giving them confidence. 4 years without sex, without intimate touching plays with your mind,.according to those posts. Guys did not realise how touched starved they were and how that was messing up everything as they had that desperation women could smell a mile away. An escort visit fixed all of that. It was an interssting read. Yeah, just look at other reddit threads (which is my actual advice, not the escort bit).. You might find something interesting or even helpful or juat be entertained.

 

[SW15]

Considering all the above points, what would all of you do if you were me?

Your mindset is hurting your chances.

I went through a phase in my life, during a deeper depression, when I also used to have these kinds of thoughts, and patterns of thought.

There's a lot going on here with you.

To put some words to it:
- you're too in your head
- you're demoralized
- you're self-defeating
- you suffer from "decision paralysis"
- you lack confidence
- you're frustrated by modern dating realities,
- you lack patience, and,
- you hold yourself back, with rationalizations for why "this or that won't work"

Notice that I said that I used to be prone to some of these downward spiralling patterns of thought.

It took a lot of time and effort, but I did improve my mindset, and consequently my mental health.

You can as well.

I'm also pretty introverted, don't have much drive to have a huge social circle, though I know how I would go about it if I wanted to grow it.

Friendships and relationships grow with time and frequent repeated encounters.

Find somewhere that you like to hang out, in a semi-social environment, whether that be a quiet pub or some small weekly/bi-weekly music venues/events, and spend time there. Become a "regular", make friends with other "regulars" at those places.

Doing so will also improve your social skills. Have fun doing it, without focusing on the women aspect of it. You'll become more attractive to women with time as well as a result.

The only way you are going to get the experiences you want, and improve your self-confidence, is by doing.

Dude you are 27 years old. Again you are 27 years old.

What you need is brain rewiring.

@BergischerLöwe -- @Canadian_Man and @Learning Curve are correct. This is all a mindset problem. You have a really bad scarcity mentality. You have a bad mentality on all levels.

You probably have enough issues that you need to start seeing some mental health professional, such as a licensed counselor, psychologist, or psychiatrist to work through some of your problems. Counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists can only take a man so far in fixing seduction problems. Mental health professionals can help with some downstream relational problems but they can't teach you how to walk up to a woman and start an interaction. You won't learn how to approach from sessions with a mental health professional. They are educated or really equipped in their practices to teach you approaching and arranging the first date. Most male mental health professionals are beta males who are in mediocre marriages. There are also female mental health professionals. To be a female mental health professional, an advanced degree is needed. These women are SJW/feminist/careerist to some extent.

I had a few efforts in therapy before finding a therapist I could work with for 2+ years to address all of my issues. I had some dating trauma issues but I also had issues relating to my parents' divorce and overall unhealthy marriage prior to the divorce, and childhood bullying issues stemming from an ill advised relocation decision that my parents made. My father also said some really pathetic beta male sayings to me as a child that I think hampered some of my teen and early 20s mating environment efforts. I had some mindset issues too. I realized this more as I thought about it and worked through some childhood issues.

You need a combination of mental health therapy, no porn, no masturbation, aerobic and anaerobic exercise, and no eating processed foods. Also no video games either. You need to avoid all the common male sedation tactics.

There is this pervasive myth that, if a guy is a cel, then he is necessarily a super clingy simp.

I never understood how they arrived at that lol.

There are plenty of shy, aloof, highly introverted cels. They couldn’t “simp” if they tried.

This is wrong. These men all "simp" online. These are men supporting women on OnlyFans.

You've basically made the determination that the juice is not worth the squeeze - and probably have had enough romance-roller-coaster experience to determine that you're not aching to go on that ride again. I think a lot of folks - men & women - have this feeling; for men, it typically comes when the age of women that are available and seem interested in them gets to a certain age where they say "eh", or alternatively, the women might be young enough, but they are fat and /or single mommies.

My story is somewhat similar to the OP.

In the past 8 years, I've only had free sex once. I've had lots of sex with escorts these past 8 years, however.

Buying an escort for the first time is nerve-wracking. Once you get in the habit of buying escorts though, it feels like you've discovered a cheat code in a video game. You no longer have to tolerate all the BS that comes with getting a woman to fornicate for free.

I don't have the time/energy for a relationship anyway.

"The juice is not worth the squeeze" is a pathetic cope. Every man needs to have sex.

The options are dating conventionally (aka paying indirectly for sex) or paying directly for sex. If you're a lower income man, you're likely not going to be able to afford paying directly for sex frequently enough. Higher income men can pay directly for sex and not have to worry about conventional dating and paying indirectly for sex. If these men wish to pay indirectly for sex, these men do things like buy Rolexes/other luxury watches and luxury brand cars in order to attract women (paying indirectly for sex).

If a man doesn't have the income to pay directly for sex frequently, he has to do a lot of work to improve his looks, money, status, or personality.