Reading Material question : Credibility of writers on the subject of PUA

[ManFromTartarus]

After completing "The Game" and getting halfway thru "The Players Handbook" I'm left a little bewildered. Not by the vast amounts of info, or the lessons I'm relearning, but of the credibility of the authors.

The Game gives lots of seduction nuts & bolts in the beginning but goes off on a conquest tirade later on and near the end focuses on his relationship with a bandmember from Courtney Love's all girl group. A blonde named Lisa that he met with another member "Sam". Well the fact is these two musicians never played in the band at the same time, actually 10 years apart, and she wasn't blonde. Just makes me think how much of this book that's supposed to be the original bible of PU, is total fabrication.

As for Rollo (who I consider a better writer), I recently found that he's really not the player he writes about, has been married for the last two decades, and that he found his wife while he was a musician in a successful band, requiring little or no game at all.

Mind you, I've been taking it all with a grain of salt, due to my age the fact is that I can't pull off much of the tactics written on seduction in these books, as they are geared towards younger men. I just don't want to waste time reading up on inapplicable strategies or material that may be nothing more than snake oil.

Your thoughts?

 

[Hamurabimbi]

FWIW I found Roosh’s Game good

 

[Tilex]

I never liked reading anything written by Neil Strauss.
Most of the stuff he writes about comes across as fiction to me.

A lot of books that are written and then published tend to be at least 4-5 years years behind the times.

I normally only read blogs these days since they keep up with current dating trends, culture, and current events.

 

[Stanley]

The game is dated and very hokey, it is a fun read, but not applicable to much of anything. The gold accents are cool though! I agree with @Hamurabimbi about Roosh. You can use the wayback machine to look at his old stuff since it has since been taken down.

Rollo is legit and is open about the amount of women he has been with. Being married doesn't mean he wasn't a player, most guys that I know in real life that were players end up in committed relationships or ltrs anyways. Doesn't change much in my eyes.

I personally really resonated with Roger Alan Curie's Mode One, but more so for the mentality aspects.

I think books on 'game' are more for introspection then application. I read them out of interest and perspective sake. That and they are just entertaining in general and can make for a fun read with some takeaways that are actually applicable.

 

[Bokanovsky]

99% of PUA stuff is made up. They are selling you a fantasy.

 

[FlirtLife]

After completing "The Game" and getting halfway thru "The Players Handbook" I'm left a little bewildered. Not by the vast amounts of info, or the lessons I'm relearning, but of the credibility of the authors.
...
As for Rollo (who I consider a better writer), I recently found that he's really not the player he writes about, has been married for the last two decades, and that he found his wife while he was a musician in a successful band, requiring little or no game at all.

I finished "The Player's Handbook" weeks ago, but rank it as one of the best books I've read. Setting aside Rollo the person, did you notice how often he cites research studies to make his points? I find that compelling. I also appreciate that he spent many years on forums like this one, arguing his points. He learned what was controversial, and what was often misunderstood. The combination of knowing the most common disagreements and using research is rare, and I think it makes for a very valuable book.

I've never met Rollo, but I can also vouch for "The Player's Handbook" accurately matching my personal experience. Believe me or not, but I'm extremely good at flirting - and like doing it for its own sake, without having a specific goal. When I was younger, I was very good looking (without knowing it). I did not realize this combination can make "Alpha Widows", which is a chapter from Roll's "The Player's Handbook". But years after I had stopped seeing or stopped flirting with women, they still had crushes on me. I've had jarringly awkward conversations with women who I didn't realize I had Alpha Widowed, which I now understand better thanks to Rollo's book.

 

[FlirtLife]

99% of PUA stuff is made up. They are selling you a fantasy.

The research studies cited in Rollo's "The Player's Handbook" are not made up. Do you have specific criticisms about the research he cites in that book?

 

[ManFromTartarus]

I finished "The Player's Handbook" weeks ago, but rank it as one of the best books I've read. Setting aside Rollo the person, did you notice how often he cites research studies to make his points? I find that compelling. I also appreciate that he spent many years on forums like this one, arguing his points. He learned what was controversial, and what was often misunderstood. The combination of knowing the most common disagreements and using research is rare, and I think it makes for a very valuable book.

I've never met Rollo, but I can also vouch for "The Player's Handbook" accurately matching my personal experience. Believe me or not, but I'm extremely good at flirting - and like doing it for its own sake, without having a specific goal. When I was younger, I was very good looking (without knowing it). I did not realize this combination can make "Alpha Widows", which is a chapter from Roll's "The Player's Handbook". But years after I had stopped seeing or stopped flirting with women, they still had crushes on me. I've had jarringly awkward conversations with women who I didn't realize I had Alpha Widowed, which I now understand better thanks to Rollo's book.

As I said in the OP I think Tomasi is a much better writer than Strauss but at this point after what I've learned about these guys I find him to be the least credible. I've got a thing about hypocrisy and if you don't practice what you preach, your word isn't gold with me.

After I read a few more things from other writers I'll have a better perspective on this.

 

[kavi]

This is good but hard to understand

the_pimp_game_instructional_guide.pdf

View and download the_pimp_game_instructional_guide.pdf on DocDroid

www.docdroid.net

Pretty hardcore but can be applied to normies just need to soften up the ideas somewhat.

 

[mikedee]

FWIW I found Roosh’s Game good

Roosh is one of the worst, he is an incel

 

[SW15]

As for Rollo (who I consider a better writer), I recently found that he's really not the player he writes about, has been married for the last two decades, and that he found his wife while he was a musician in a successful band, requiring little or no game at all.

You pretty much got the biggest and most valid criticism of Rollo Tomassi. He's been married since 1996 and likely started that relationship around 1994. A lot of his work is from 3rd party observation and external research. He does have a Behavior Psychology degree. There are a lot of people out there with bachelor's level degrees in Psychology though.

Musician in a band status did likely help him in the late 1980s through mid-1990s.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

Roosh is one of the worst, he is an incel

Why do you feel this?

I'm almost done with his book and although it's pretty basic stuff and geared towards young guys pulling women out of clubs, it's an easy read and spoon-feeds beginners pretty well.

He went religious and has a bit of controversy around him over his past views but I find him more believable than Rollo and less disjointed in his writing than Strauss.

 

[SW15]

I'm almost done with his book and although it's pretty basic stuff and geared towards young guys pulling women out of clubs, it's an easy read and spoon-feeds beginners pretty well.

Even though I was a game intermediate by the time I started reading Roosh in my late 20s, I found his writing style and techniques easier to follow. "Day Bang" was very influential to my daygame approaches.

Roosh was a PUA while he was writing about pickup and seduction topics.

He went religious and has a bit of controversy around him over his past views but I find him more believable than Rollo and less disjointed in his writing than Strauss.

I found "Bang" and "Day Bang" easier to follow than "Mystery Method".

 

[Bokanovsky]

Why do you feel this?

I'm almost done with his book and although it's pretty basic stuff and geared towards young guys pulling women out of clubs, it's an easy read and spoon-feeds beginners pretty well.

He went religious and has a bit of controversy around him over his past views but I find him more believable than Rollo and less disjointed in his writing than Strauss.

He does send a strong incel vibe. I just don’t see anything about him that a woman would find attractive. Not his looks, not the way he speaks, not how he carries himself. To his credit, he’s clearly an intelligent guy but women aren’t turned on by intellect.

Also, if Roosh was actually banging all those women he claims to have slept with, would he have had the time to be such a prolific writer? Everything is a hustle and PUA is no exception. People make up tall tales to sell books, charge money for lectures, “boot camps”, etc. And some people do it for the ego. Over the years, there have been a few posters on SS who were clearly lying about their sexual conquests, but many here were too naive to see through the BS.

 

[characternote]

He does send a strong incel vibe. I just don’t see anything about him that a woman would find attractive. Not his looks, not the way he speaks, not how he carries himself. To his credit, he’s clearly an intelligent guy but women aren’t turned on by intellect.

Also, if Roosh was actually banging all those women he claims to have slept with, would he have had the time to be such a prolific writer? Everything is a hustle and PUA is no exception. People make up tall tales to sell books, charge money for lectures, “boot camps”, etc. And some people do it for the ego. Over the years, there have been a few posters on SS who were clearly lying about their sexual conquests, but many here were too naive to see through the BS.

There were a few rare infields of roosh floating around back in the day which seemed to confirm what you say, tbh. Just basically him awkwardly approaching groups of young girls at the bar, getting rejected (more 'ignored' in fact) and then walking back to the cameraman looking half dejected but half self amused. Was kind of surpised/impressed that he uploaded them at the time tbh. Very short vids. Only 2-3 from memory

There's no way he was ever some sort of slayer. He did sent out some incel vibs as you say in other vids. Like just his energy when he was demonstrating game theory using little toys/figures in one vid. Seemed like a slightly weird guy

Not to mention that his books of course don't contain anything that any normal guy doesn't already do to socialise. His book was basically 'galnuc'
G — By the way, are you half German? (after an 'elderly opener')
A — By the way, how old are you?
L — Where do you live?
N — By the way, what’s your name?
U — So where do you usually hang out?
C — Well you seem cool do you want to grab a drink sometime and chat some more?

that's his daygame book, but his nightgame book, although different was equally as basic.

There's nothing wrong with basic, but why would someone bother buying it, and why would someone praise it so much lol? What have these people been doing prior to reading the book!!?! Never asking a girl her name and age?? lol. They had to read a book to learn that?!

And before going all religious nut bar - don't forget that roosh conceded that even teh best game in the world is only about leading already attracted girls to sex. Again, although true, it's also an admission that there's nothing anyone even needs to learn (especially from him) since it's kind of hard to screw up when a girl likes you! (unless you have more serious issues)

Only thing I liked about him at the time (and as others have said) is his writing style. He writes in a way I like. Many of the PUA's at the time were painful to read

But yeah, roosh was a sex tourist at best. Not some pua wizard (but then, nobody is)

 

[FlirtLife]

As I said in the OP I think Tomasi is a much better writer than Strauss but at this point after what I've learned about these guys I find him to be the least credible. I've got a thing about hypocrisy and if you don't practice what you preach, your word isn't gold with me.

After I read a few more things from other writers I'll have a better perspective on this.

Ah, you expected Rollo to still be a player, not a married man. I would strongly encourage you to read the chapter "Passive Dread" before you finish or give up reading. The insights there apply to LTR and marriage - and you'd expect Rollo to be credible there. For former players and beta men alike, I think that chapter is probably worth its own book.

 

[kavi]

There were a few rare infields of roosh floating around back in the day which seemed to confirm what you say, tbh. Just basically him awkwardly approaching groups of young girls at the bar, getting rejected (more 'ignored' in fact) and then walking back to the cameraman looking half dejected but half self amused. Was kind of surpised/impressed that he uploaded them at the time tbh. Very short vids. Only 2-3 from memory

There's no way he was ever some sort of slayer. He did sent out some incel vibs as you say in other vids. Like just his energy when he was demonstrating game theory using little toys/figures in one vid. Seemed like a slightly weird guy

Not to mention that his books of course don't contain anything that any normal guy doesn't already do to socialise. His book was basically 'galnuc'
G — By the way, are you half German? (after an 'elderly opener')
A — By the way, how old are you?
L — Where do you live?
N — By the way, what’s your name?
U — So where do you usually hang out?
C — Well you seem cool do you want to grab a drink sometime and chat some more?

that's his daygame book, but his nightgame book, although different was equally as basic.

There's nothing wrong with basic, but why would someone bother buying it, and why would someone praise it so much lol? What have these people been doing prior to reading the book!!?! Never asking a girl her name and age?? lol. They had to read a book to learn that?!

And before going all religious nut bar - don't forget that roosh conceded that even teh best game in the world is only about leading already attracted girls to sex. Again, although true, it's also an admission that there's nothing anyone even needs to learn (especially from him) since it's kind of hard to screw up when a girl likes you! (unless you have more serious issues)

Only thing I liked about him at the time (and as others have said) is his writing style. He writes in a way I like. Many of the PUA's at the time were painful to read

But yeah, roosh was a sex tourist at best. Not some pua wizard (but then, nobody is)

But I think a lot of PUAs and guys with high notches were weird just look at mystery he was not exactly chad. PUA actually seemed to benefit these autistic type of guys cos I think at one point in time just figuring out a methodology and applying it indiscrimitely ie mass approaching seemed to work esp to get notches from daygame or nightgame.

Basically what was happening is that even women were new to this world and couldnt really differentiate between an autistic nerd with some confidence and an actual confident real guy. I dont really doubt that Roosh was getting laid cos his strategy did seem developed and though seeming obvious but he still has some 'feminine' qualities ie the ability to talk a lot about pointless stuff without feeling akward about it that helped him get laid a lot, this is the same thing that allowed him to write well.

He's problem then is transitioning from PUA to actually getting and keeping a decent girl which he was never able to do. This is why he left Game. He had one GF in Poland or somewhere and it was nothing substantial and didnt work out at all, that is where he got tired of PUA and became religious, his type of Game could never transition into a deeper connection and that seemed to really hurt him.

 

[mikedee]

Nah, the reason why Roosh disappeared is that couldn't help to show his true colors, that he is an incel. He couldn't get laid and became extremist, he was openly promoting rape, etc. He got very bad publicity and it got to a point that he was being recognized on the street and harrassed by men and women. The reason he did all that, the book, the forum is because he is an extremely low value man and it was a way for him to have some status, a way to be somebody. He is the perfect example of what a loser is. I don't believe Mystery got laid like he says he did. He is another loser. Only fools who have no experience in dating believe those clowns.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

Ah, you expected Rollo to still be a player, not a married man. I would strongly encourage you to read the chapter "Passive Dread" before you finish or give up reading. The insights there apply to LTR and marriage - and you'd expect Rollo to be credible there. For former players and beta men alike, I think that chapter is probably worth its own book.

From what I see he was never a player, and after seeing him in vids I find him even less credible. I do give him credit for going into far more detail than the other PUA writers but the question of how much of it is based on experience leaves me uninspired about his work.

I did look for that chapter but only found "Dread Game" which was insightful, but I am divorced, not in a LTR so it doesn't concern me so much right now, and I have as much experience as he does on that subject.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

Wow, a lot of hate for Roosh V, people throw around "incel" a lot just as an insult towards someone they dislike. All I can say is his book "Bang" was the easiest read, blew thru it in 2 days, but then his game and the way he writes is really super basic and is IMO best for beginners and low level game.

I'm done with PUA books for now and plan on reading up on NLP and maybe "the Art of Seduction" -Greene.

In the meantime it's time for me to get back in the field and reapply myself after re-learning some of the rules I forgot over the years.