From clinger to winner. Is it even possible ?

[Gamisch]

I've noticed there are a few types of men in this manosphere.


-the stoic. He won't let shyte with women faze him. He studied and understood female nature ,accepts it and makes the best out of it.

-The white belt. This man is new to the space. Most cliches are yet unknown to him at his stage. He had some women pulling some bs right left, been around the block and will most of the time nod his head when he learns something new.

-The Clinger. Now I don't wanna point out names. Y'all know who you are. As for today there are multiple threads with topics such as;" what to make of this" or" what does (insert female behavior) mean?". "Should I stay or should I go, lalalalalalala". (To clarify, I unfortunately fall into this category that's why I make the thread)

This man would rather put a tracking device on his girl's car. Control her everywhere. Is insecure. Will have mental logbooks and will know every detail of the dynamic of the relationship. Is extremely sensitive to every small change in the relationship. Is jealous.


Question. Is it even possible for the Clinger to become the stoic? Is there ANY example of a man who managed to do this? Or is a man " doomed " once he enters Clinger territory? Perhaps there's someone who used to be clingy, went RP and truly managed to change his behaviour towards women.

 

[Gamisch]

I've noticed there are a few types of men in this manosphere.


-the stoic. He won't let shyte with women faze him. He studied and understood female nature ,accepts it and makes the best out of it.

-The white belt. This man is new to the space. Most cliches are yet unknown to him at his stage. He had some women pulling some bs right left, been around the block and will most of the time nod his head when he learns something new.

-The Clinger. Now I don't wanna point out names. Y'all know who you are. As for today there are multiple threads with topics such as;" what to make of this" or" what does (insert female behavior) mean?". "Should I stay or should I go, lalalalalalala". (To clarify, I unfortunately fall into this category that's why I make the thread)

This man would rather put a tracking device on his girl's car. Control her everywhere. Is insecure. Will have mental logbooks and will know every detail of the dynamic of the relationship. Is extremely sensitive to every small change in the relationship. Is jealous.


Question. Is it even possible for the Clinger to become the stoic? Is there ANY example of a man who managed to do this? Or is a man " doomed " once he enters Clinger territory? Perhaps there's someone who used to be clingy, went RP and truly managed to change his behaviour towards women.

Like I said I've noticed I am a Clinger too. Recently I told a poster it's not a "mistake " to have certain demands , like good communication. Its oke to feel whatever type of way when you feel a woman is being vague and unclear.

It does however a becomes a big problem once the Clinger decides to "focus on knowing the truth ". His whole mind will be occupied and obsessively looking for clear answers. 8 out of ten times his suspicions was based on absolutely nothing, leaving him looking like a needy fool.

What works for me is spinning plates. It gives me more of a idgaf attitude. Makes me more mysterious. Basically makes me behave exactly like how I viewed a woman I dont trust. Hence the clingy behaviour when I am in the the seat . Takes one to know one..

It seems like a great relief to be "ahead of the game" . I am fecking around too, so I don't need to be hypocritical about her doing the same thing.

Maybe its cope, and would I rather be in the most healthy LTR ever where trust is the cornerstone of the relationship. I would rather live the Disney fantasy. Instead I've noticed there's no room for being a Clinger once you have multiple women , especially when they're the ones trying to make you submit instead of the other way around.

To me it's obvious the Clinger has deeper problems. Codependency issues ect..and sometimes you don't even know you are a longer untill you meet a woman whose able to make your head spin in a negative way.

What do you guys think?

 

[manfrombelow]

I used to be a clinger and a total loser in love (cliché I know), however through an never-ending will to learn (and unlearn) things, that I am who I am today (now I'm not saying I'm the greatest achiever or anything, but you know what I mean).

So I believe yes, it is possible for a clinger to winner ONLY IF he's willing to learn.

 

[Gamisch]

I used to be a clinger and a total loser in love (cliché I know), however through an never-ending will to learn (and unlearn) things, that I am who I am today (now I'm not saying I'm the greatest achiever or anything, but you know what I mean).

So I believe yes, it is possible for a clinger to winner ONLY IF he's willing to learn.

Oke interesting. I am glad the first response is one that allows me to ask some more questions.

Let me start with this one (2). How did the old you viewed women and relationship vs the new you? And was there a specific event that lead to this ?

 

[manfrombelow]

Oke interesting. I am glad the first response is one that allows me to ask some more questions.

Let me start with this one (2). How did the old you viewed women and relationship vs the new you? And was there a specific event that lead to this ?

1. The old me was contaminated with the BS view of romance/love/dating/etc... that was an invention of Hollywood, hence he treated women like princesses aka pedestalizing them and simping after them. The current me simply doesn't do that anymore. Now it's where I have to admit I sometimes fall into the territory of being blackpilled occasionally, but I know it's not healthy so I have to use a lot of willpower to battle against it.

2. Not one, but numerous failures and frustration in dealing with women that led me to this, including a failed LTR where I moved into my ex-gf's apartment while being jobless (I know, I know).

 

[manfrombelow]

To add to (1):

I lacked a real father figure most of my life and was raised mostly by my mother. So I grew up and stepped into the wilderness without much wisdom and masculine energy, but full of sh~t and feminine energy, which I believed made my suffering in dating and interacting with women even worse. And on a psychology level, this trauma still negatively affect my life even until today.

 

[Stanley]

I used to be more AFC/blue. I don't know if clinger is the word i'd use but I understand what you are getting at. What got me out of it (like many men) is I had my heart stomped on by a girl I genuinely loved.

A lot of guys take that hurt and don't properly heal from it. They instead turn jaded, bitter and angry towards women and relationships on the whole. They have a lot of scar tissue so to speak which showcases in numerous ways. I believe the 'stoics' as you call them are the ones that have a firm understanding of women and the nature of relationships and have not turned down the path of bitterness. Instead, they healed and grew from the past experiences.

A core tenet of the stoic philosophy is to accept things as they are and only focus on the things you can control. From the things you have dominion over you can transfigure negatives into positives and learn how to utilize gratitude as a tool to overcome negative emotions.
An example in dating would perhaps be when a girl rejects you and leaves you. Instead of lashing out in anger the stoic looks at the "bright side of things" and likely thinks to himself "this is a moment to use for growth and to test my emotional and mental fortitude", he may also genuinely believe after reflection that he dodged a bullet. He is keenly aware that he cannot control what is outside of his own power.

Acceptance empowers growth and the 'stoic' has been genuine with themselves and faced that painful truth directly. The stoic also exists in a state of contentment. He does not 'need' a women and as such is able to deal with the nonsense with ease. He may not actually have an abundance in reality, but he has internalized the feeling of abundance and self worth. He does not need.

"True happiness is to enjoy the present, without anxious dependence upon the future, not to amuse ourselves with either hopes or fears but to rest satisfied with what we have, which is sufficient, for he that is so wants nothing".


-Top G Marcus Aurelius

 

[Gamisch]

I used to be more AFC/blue. I don't know if clinger is the word i'd use but I understand what you are getting at. What got me out of it (like many men) is I had my heart stomped on by a girl I genuinely loved.

A lot of guys take that hurt and don't properly heal from it. They instead turn jaded, bitter and angry towards women and relationships on the whole. They have a lot of scar tissue so to speak which showcases in numerous ways. I believe the 'stoics' as you call them are the ones that have a firm understanding of women and the nature of relationships and have not turned down the path of bitterness. Instead, they healed and grew from the past experiences.

A core tenet of the stoic philosophy is to accept things as they are and only focus on the things you can control. From the things you have dominion over you can transfigure negatives into positives and learn how to utilize gratitude as a tool to overcome negative emotions.
An example in dating would perhaps be when a girl rejects you and leaves you. Instead of lashing out in anger the stoic looks at the "bright side of things" and likely thinks to himself "this is a moment to use for growth and to test my emotional and mental fortitude", he may also genuinely believe after reflection that he dodged a bullet. He is keenly aware that he cannot control what is outside of his own power.

Acceptance empowers growth and the 'stoic' has been genuine with themselves and faced that painful truth directly. The stoic also exists in a state of contentment. He does not 'need' a women and as such is able to deal with the nonsense with ease. He may not actually have an abundance in reality, but he has internalized the feeling of abundance and self worth. He does not need.

"True happiness is to enjoy the present, without anxious dependence upon the future, not to amuse ourselves with either hopes or fears but to rest satisfied with what we have, which is sufficient, for he that is so wants nothing".

View attachment 9734
-Top G Marcus Aurelius

That's an amazing reply, and you clearly understand the point I am trying to make.

Is there a way for the scar tissue to heal? The irony is most of these hurt men do understand female nature , they just deny the inconvenient truths. Basically the perfect soil for the blackpill to grow in. I do wonder, is it even possible to change these tendencies?

Jealousy is a good example. I recently learned jealousy =anger. And I just added fear also. The feeling can be overwhelming though. Great example of something uncontrollable, yet it drives some people mad. I wonder how the stoic deals with this. Insecurity might be another one.

 

[Stanley]

That's an amazing reply, and you clearly understand the point I am trying to make.

Is there a way for the scar tissue to heal? The irony is most of these hurt men do understand female nature , they just deny the inconvenient truths. Basically the perfect soil for the blackpill to grow in. I do wonder, is it even possible to change these tendencies?

Jealousy is a good example. I recently learned jealousy =anger. And I just added fear also. The feeling can be overwhelming though. Great example of something uncontrollable, yet it drives some people mad. I wonder how the stoic deals with this. Insecurity might be another one.

The scar tissue as it were is a placeholder for healing properly in my eyes.

Scar tissue serves a purpose, but healed healthy tissue is superior. That scar tissue may be necessary in the short term, but in the long run it will cause issues just like in real life. This emotional scar tissue is a response to trauma and negative emotions. It easier to build up then addressing the underlying pain and allowing yourself to feel.

As for how to heal it? Self reflection on a recurrent basis is a good place to start i'd gather. (Another core tenet of stoicism I might add...)

Many of these resentful, fearful and angry emotions come from a place of insecurity and most are entirely unaware of that. Many suppress these emotions and do not process them, they in turn transmute into negative emotions and potentially self destructive behavior. The men that have felt the scorn of women may understand their nature, but they haven't built up a tolerance to it and genuine acceptance of it. Much of that anger towards women comes from the dissolution of their preconceived notions and ideals about relationships. This process alone causes anger and manifests outwards. In reality, this is really the person's own inability to take on accountability and also genuinely let go of the past and be open to the present. They scream out into the abyss and deflect and project onto everything and everyone, but themselves. They place blame on a consistent basis instead of accepting things as they are then making the necessary changes. As for what those changes are is dependent on the person, but that is why self reflection is paramount to growth.

I would not consider myself a 'stoic' as you have described, although I am an avid fan of the philosophy of both stoicism and absurdism.

Women still do things which bug me and I am still young enough to be naive. I take on others experiences and advice from a place of objectivity and that helps me process things more clearly. I listen and heed the words said, but do not internalize/personalize them. I take on an extreme degree of accountability even when compared to the ones' that wronged me who did far worse things. I am not in control of those people though. I am only in control of myself, my emotions and my actions... so I will only focus on myself.

A clinger can change, they just need to put in a concerted effort into changing and better understanding themselves. I'm sure some older wiser members than I could weigh in on this as well.

 

[patb]

I don't see anything wrong with "bitterness," to be quite honest. The reflexive clamp down on anyone who displays it strikes me as power and privilege defending its position. Enough men become "bitter," the whole scam unravels.

 

[BadBoy89]

Question. Is it even possible for the Clinger to become the stoic? Is there ANY example of a man who managed to do this? Or is a man " doomed " once he enters Clinger territory? Perhaps there's someone who used to be clingy, went RP and truly managed to change his behaviour towards women.

Absolutely, it’s called “Father Time.”

A 23 year old man is generally a Clinger, he will do anything for the young girl, or get to get Sex from the girl.

A 43 year old man is Stoic, he could care less about the woman, or to get sex from the woman. Now if the girl in her 20s and hot, then he will put some time and effort into it. But if the woman is anything 30+, he is automatically stoic.

How a much a man cares about a woman depends on how attractive and fertile she is.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

I used to be more AFC/blue. I don't know if clinger is the word i'd use but I understand what you are getting at. What got me out of it (like many men) is I had my heart stomped on by a girl I genuinely loved.

A lot of guys take that hurt and don't properly heal from it. They instead turn jaded, bitter and angry towards women and relationships on the whole. They have a lot of scar tissue so to speak which showcases in numerous ways. I believe the 'stoics' as you call them are the ones that have a firm understanding of women and the nature of relationships and have not turned down the path of bitterness. Instead, they healed and grew from the past experiences.

A core tenet of the stoic philosophy is to accept things as they are and only focus on the things you can control. From the things you have dominion over you can transfigure negatives into positives and learn how to utilize gratitude as a tool to overcome negative emotions.
An example in dating would perhaps be when a girl rejects you and leaves you. Instead of lashing out in anger the stoic looks at the "bright side of things" and likely thinks to himself "this is a moment to use for growth and to test my emotional and mental fortitude", he may also genuinely believe after reflection that he dodged a bullet. He is keenly aware that he cannot control what is outside of his own power.

Acceptance empowers growth and the 'stoic' has been genuine with themselves and faced that painful truth directly. The stoic also exists in a state of contentment. He does not 'need' a women and as such is able to deal with the nonsense with ease. He may not actually have an abundance in reality, but he has internalized the feeling of abundance and self worth. He does not need.

"True happiness is to enjoy the present, without anxious dependence upon the future, not to amuse ourselves with either hopes or fears but to rest satisfied with what we have, which is sufficient, for he that is so wants nothing".

View attachment 9734
-Top G Marcus Aurelius

Real Stoics are specified with a capital S, as a counter to the pop culture notion of stoics which is largely drawn from the character Spock, who is a far cry from actual Greco-Roman Stoicism.

 

[thermodynamic]

Absolutely, it’s called “Father Time.”

A 23 year old man is generally a Clinger, he will do anything for the young girl, or get to get Sex from the girl.

A 43 year old man is Stoic, he could care less about the woman, or to get sex from the woman. Now if the girl in her 20s and hot, then he will put some time and effort into it. But if the woman is anything 30+, he is automatically stoic.

How a much a man cares about a woman depends on how attractive and fertile she is.

Not true. You can be a chad at age 23 and run circles on old 43 year olds. Most chads do not know wtf is a stoic - they simply act the part because they have options - they are cool young tough guys who are the "in crowd" - the have social status and are manly.

 

[patb]

Not true. You can be a chad at age 23 and run circles on old 43 year olds. Most chads do not know wtf is a stoic - they simply act the part because they have options - they are cool young tough guys who are the "in crowd" - the have social status and are manly.

They're hardly "tough" or "manly," but unfortunately you're right -- that's who benefits from society. Not aging cold approachers at TJ Maxx. This is what you get in a highly prosperous and secure environment where bluster is tolerated but calling out bluster with force is not ("anarcho-tyranny" at work).

 

[member160292]

This man would rather put a tracking device on his girl's car. Control her everywhere. Is insecure. Will have mental logbooks and will know every detail of the dynamic of the relationship. Is extremely sensitive to every small change in the relationship. Is jealous.

I wouldn't go as far as putting a tracking device or say I'm jealous. She can walk if she wants, same with myself. I've been a 'controller' my entire life and career. Don't ask questions you don't know the answers to.
I'm a Virgo - often blessed with great charm, their outgoing personality tending to attract those in need of guidance. They are natural leaders and are at their happiest when guiding or controlling individuals or a group in a well-thought-out project.

I don't think there is a problem with having a mental logbook, changes in behavior should be followed closely so you don't get blindsided. I got kicked in the teeth in my first relationship and much more observant since then. All my LTR's since then have been a blessing. Spotting the red flags early on and 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' mentality.

Since I've been burned in the past in both my relationships and career, I err on the side of stoicism, somewhat of an owl watching and planning my reaction. Yes, one of my flaws is that I'm more judgemental than most. Being stoic doesn't necessarily mean being indifferent with women or anyone. You can understand emotions, but you are always planning your next move, connect what they say to lead the conversation where you want it to go. People think I can relate to them, but really it's just me feeding them what they already want to hear.

I don't think being a controller in a relationship is a bad thing at all. The relationship should be dictated on my terms and with input from my partner to help make it better. I'm very open and ask what they want and need - NOT what I can do better. If it fits into my mold great, but if I need a Tetris straight piece and she throws me a Z, it will not work. I'm quick to walk away, we are only allotted a finite amount of time on this earth.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Yes, but it takes a lot of real, hard work on yourself to get there and a lot of failures along the way to success.

Honestly, most guys don't have the mindset, mental fortitude nor the patience to do it. They expect success right away and don't realize they learn more from their failures, if they are willing to, than from their successes.

 

[Gamisch]

Yes, but it takes a lot of real, hard work on yourself to get there and a lot of failures along the way to success.

Honestly, most guys don't have the mindset, mental fortitude nor the patience to do it. They expect success right away and don't realize they learn more from their failures, if they are willing to, than from their successes.

There's definitely a correlation between being a clinger and feeling like a failure .

I recently also start to realize that failure doesn't mean its over, but its rather a learning experience. This makes the difference between being depressed or being motivated.

The scar tissue as it were is a placeholder for healing properly in my eyes.

Scar tissue serves a purpose, but healed healthy tissue is superior. That scar tissue may be necessary in the short term, but in the long run it will cause issues just like in real life. This emotional scar tissue is a response to trauma and negative emotions. It easier to build up then addressing the underlying pain and allowing yourself to feel.

As for how to heal it? Self reflection on a recurrent basis is a good place to start i'd gather. (Another core tenet of stoicism I might add...)

Many of these resentful, fearful and angry emotions come from a place of insecurity and most are entirely unaware of that. Many suppress these emotions and do not process them, they in turn transmute into negative emotions and potentially self destructive behavior. The men that have felt the scorn of women may understand their nature, but they haven't built up a tolerance to it and genuine acceptance of it. Much of that anger towards women comes from the dissolution of their preconceived notions and ideals about relationships. This process alone causes anger and manifests outwards. In reality, this is really the person's own inability to take on accountability and also genuinely let go of the past and be open to the present. They scream out into the abyss and deflect and project onto everything and everyone, but themselves. They place blame on a consistent basis instead of accepting things as they are then making the necessary changes. As for what those changes are is dependent on the person, but that is why self reflection is paramount to growth.

I would not consider myself a 'stoic' as you have described, although I am an avid fan of the philosophy of both stoicism and absurdism.

Women still do things which bug me and I am still young enough to be naive. I take on others experiences and advice from a place of objectivity and that helps me process things more clearly. I listen and heed the words said, but do not internalize/personalize them. I take on an extreme degree of accountability even when compared to the ones' that wronged me who did far worse things. I am not in control of those people though. I am only in control of myself, my emotions and my actions... so I will only focus on myself.

A clinger can change, they just need to put in a concerted effort into changing and better understanding themselves. I'm sure some older wiser members than I could weigh in on this as well.

I am impressed. You are a young man woth an old soul. Proof that age doesn't always matters, but rather understanding is key. I always enjoy your posts bro.

 

[Stanley]

I am impressed. You are a young man woth an old soul. Proof that age doesn't always matters, but rather understanding is key. I always enjoy your posts bro.

Nah I just spend too much time upstairs! It is a double edged sword and something I am trying to limit to an extent. I have my faults and a lot of aspects of myself I need to work on extensively. Thank you for the comment though

I need to spend less time here and get back out into the real world a little more. I came to SS to focus on entertaining new perspectives, learning from guys with different experiences, receiving feedback and so on, all with the intention of personal growth and swallowing some hard truths. I'm more interested in the mentalities here then I am with the 'game' aspects. I've used this board in the short time i've been here as an outlet and something to springboard off of. I have a lot of things to process and I need to start undertaking applied knowledge and remove myself a bit. There is a lot of value on this board, but i've noticed your really have to sift through it to get the nuggets of wisdom some guys lay down.