Am I f*cked if I don't want to lead longterm?

skipfontaine22

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I realize women dig men who lead, are decisive, driven, etc.

I am a very driven, successful individual.

I realize I need to lead in the early dates to make an impression.

But, to be honest, I don't want to lead in my long-term relationship.

If I go into a restaurant, and she's picky where we sit, I want let her talk to the host about that stuff.

Because I don't care about stuff like that.

Is that ok?

Or should I strive to always lead so my partner can fall into her feminine frame?
 
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EyeBRollin

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Is that ok?

Or should I strive to always lead so my partner can fall into her feminine frame?
No, it is not ok. Women always want you to lead and make the final decision. It is biological. They do not trust their own decision making. She thinks “if I have to make the decisions what do I need him for?!”
 

BackInTheGame78

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I realize women dig men who lead, are decisive, driven, etc.

I am a very driven, successful individual.

I realize I need to lead in the early dates to make an impression.

But, to be honest, I don't want to lead in my long-term relationship.

If I go into a restaurant, and she's picky where we sit, I want let her talk to the host about that stuff.

Because I don't care about stuff like that.

Is that ok?

Or should I strive to always lead so my partner can fall into her feminine frame?
Might as just wear a tie on dates and walk behind her and let her pull you around by it then because that's what it will devolve into.

You are either the leader or the follower.
 

oldmanofthesea

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I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

If I go into a restaurant, and she's picky where we sit, I want let her talk to the host about that stuff.
It sounds like this has been your experience with women. What you are describing is a woman who is not relationship material. Relationships should be easy. They should be yin and yang. Your masculinity should complement and counterbalance her femininity. Where people run into problems is with women exactly like you describe above. They are not in their feminine and instead they want to call all the shots, are picky, demanding, and want to lead. This is a MAJOR problem because it is not in a woman's nature to be like that, and it makes them unhappy and frustrated.

Often times women try to lead because of mental illness, or because of some psychological issues/trauma. Example is crippling insecurity and or separation anxiety, and if their response to that is to try to control everything, then you get leadership/masculine energy.

What typically happens with these women, in my own personal experience dating many of them and being married to one of them, is that they think they want to lead and have control over everything, yet they blame you at the same time for not making them "feel a certain way" and they become exhausted with the act of leadership and control which doesn't come naturally to women. The worst part is, they don't see it how I have explained it above. They don't understand why they feel that way about you. They just know they have two sources of frustration:
1. Anxiety and stress and exhaustion around the weight of making every decision and having control of everything (even though they are the ones driving it)
2. A general dissatisfaction and disgust toward their partner - the reason for which they can't quite put their finger on. "It's just...... it's just SOMETHING," and since they can't put their finger on it, they will start to make up reasons they aren't happy with you and they will change every day because they don't actually know what it is. You can go to therapy and they will say it's X one day and Y the next and the result is that nothing you ever do will be good enough because all the things they SAY they want you to do aren't the things that are causing their unhappiness.

This is where screening during dating comes into play. You want to find a woman who isn't bossy, demanding, and picky. You want a woman who is RELATIVELY go-with-the-flow. When you find a woman like this, leading is effortless because you just move through life and through the relationship like you normally do as a man. You decide where you want to work right? Or what hobbies you want right? Or where you want to eat right? If you didn't have a woman who constantly pushed back on your suggestions and leadership, how much effort would "leading" truly be? The answer is: it isn't, because you lead yourself every day by simply making normal decisions. That's all it is. It CAN get a little more complex when the two of you end up having some disputes over relationships and boundaries, and this is where understanding leadership and frame still needs to come into play, but this only happens from time to time. It should not be a constant struggle on every topic, every decision, every thing in day to day life.

There are many ways you can screen women for this during early dating.
 
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skipfontaine22

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I think you are looking at this the wrong way.



It sounds like this has been your experience with women. What you are describing is not a woman I would want to date, nor a woman I would be happy in a relationship with. Relationships should be easy. They should be yin and yang. Your masculinity should complement and counterbalance her femininity. Where people run into problems is with women exactly like you describe above. They are not in their feminine and instead they want to call all the shots, are picky, demanding, and want to lead. This is a MAJOR problem because it is not in a woman's nature to be like that, and it makes them unhappy and frustrated.

Often times women try to lead because of mental illness, or because of some psychological issues/trauma. Example is crippling insecurity and or separation anxiety, and if their response to that is to try to control everything, then you get leadership/masculine energy.

What typically happens with these women, in my own personal experience dating many of them and being married to one of them, is that they think they want to lead and have control over everything, yet they blame you at the same time for not making them "feel a certain way" and they become exhausted with the act of leadership and control which doesn't come naturally to women. The worst part is, they don't see it how I have explained it above. They don't understand why they feel that way about you. They just know they have two sources of frustration:
1. Anxiety and stress and exhaustion around the weight of making every decision and having control of everything (even though they are the ones driving it)
2. A general dissatisfaction and disgust toward their partner - the reason for which they can't quite put their finger on. "It's just...... it's just SOMETHING," and since they can't put their finger on it, they will start to make up reasons they aren't happy with you and they will change every day because they don't actually know what it is. You can go to therapy and they will say it's X one day and Y the next and the result is that nothing you ever do will be good enough because all the things they SAY they want you to do aren't the things that are causing their unhappiness.

This is where screening during dating comes into play. You want to find a woman who isn't bossy, demanding, and picky. You want a woman who is RELATIVELY go-with-the-flow. When you find a woman like this, leading is effortless because you just move through life and through the relationship like you normally do as a man. You decide where you want to work right? Or what hobbies you want right? Or where you want to eat right? If you didn't have a woman who constantly pushed back on your suggestions and leadership, how much effort would "leading" truly be? The answer is: it isn't, because you lead yourself every day by simply making normal decisions. That's all it is. It CAN get a little more complex when the two of you end up having some disputes over relationships and boundaries, and this is where understanding leadership and frame still needs to come into play, but this only happens from time to time. It should not be a constant struggle on every topic, every decision, every thing in day to day life.

There are many ways you can screen women for this during early dating.
Beautifully stated.

Yes I was in a relationship and I feel I did not fall into a leader frame as much because of her anxiety.
Some may have also been my anxiety.

But yes I did not fully fall into my masculine and she didn't fall into feminine.

With that said, the choosing where to sit in a restaurant is a terrible example as she'd not really give a sh*t about that either.
 

The Duke

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I realize women dig men who lead, are decisive, driven, etc.

I am a very driven, successful individual.

I realize I need to lead in the early dates to make an impression.

But, to be honest, I don't want to lead in my long-term relationship.

If I go into a restaurant, and she's picky where we sit, I want let her talk to the host about that stuff.

Because I don't care about stuff like that.

Is that ok?

Or should I strive to always lead so my partner can fall into her feminine frame?
In my younger years(had a wife) I was a lot like you, very driven myself and felt the same way about restaurants and many other similar things. I also let her drive us to many of the places we went if I was tired or didn't feel like driving. This was also a form of not leading.

Its little things like this that chip away at your frame and will lead to your demise. They might not be a big deal to you, but they are a big deal to her subconscious brain that will effect the success of your relationship.

Lots of good thoughts shared here.
 

Bokanovsky

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No, it is not ok. Women always want you to lead and make the final decision. It is biological. They do not trust their own decision making. She thinks “if I have to make the decisions what do I need him for?!”
You also have to consider what YOU want, not just what women want. Do you want to be a woman's babysitter, secretary and valet rolled into one? I certainly don't. I do not see myself as duty-bound to devote my life to making HER life simpler. The idea that you have to lead in every conceivable situation, such as picking a table at the restaurant and choosing bedroom curtains is preposterous and smacks of insecurity. Lead when it comes to important decisions, not trivial sh*t.

Just because you outsource some decisions to her doesn't make you weak. It's no different than the CEO delegating authority to his underlings.
 
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The Duke

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You also have to consider what YOU want, not just what women want. Do you want to be a woman's babysitter, secretary and valet rolled into one? I certainly don't. I don't see myself as duty-bound to devote my life to making HER life simpler. The idea that you have to lead in every conceivable situation, such as picking a table at the restaurant and choosing bedroom curtains is preposterous and smacks of insecurity. Lead when it comes to important decisions, not trivial sh*t.

Just because you outsource some decisions to her doesn't make you weak. It's no different than the CEO delegating authority to his underlings.
But the CEO is telling the underlings what to do. I guess if you told your wife/gf to get the table that would be the same thing as a CEO telling his underlings what to do? But expecting her to do it without saying certainly isn't.

Just because its trivial schitt to us doesn't mean its trivial to women. Women are pretty trivial anyways.

There were times when I didn't want to drive and I told my exwife to drive. To this day, I still believe she saw this as me not leading, regardless of me telling her. Leading is taking action, not just telling people what to do.

I think @oldmanofthesea explained it well. They can't be in there feminine energy when they are expected to make any sort of decision. They are not natural decision makers.
 

Bokanovsky

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There were times when I didn't want to drive and I told my exwife to drive. To this day, I still believe she saw this as me not leading, regardless of me telling her. Leading is taking action, not just telling people what to do.
But was that really the reason why your marriage failed? Or are you rationalizing?
 

pipeman84

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There were times when I didn't want to drive and I told my exwife to drive. To this day, I still believe she saw this as me not leading, regardless of me telling her. Leading is taking action, not just telling people what to do.
Oh man, this reminds me of Rollo talking about his first date with his now wife, how she handed him the keys to her car and said 'you drive'...and he knew right there and then that she knows about masculine/feminine. LOL
I don't understand where you guys got this idea from...I mean, it's the leader that's driven around in a limousine by his chauffeur, isn't it?
 

The Duke

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But was that really the reason why your marriage failed? Or are you rationalizing?
There is never one single thing that causes failure, but it didn't help.
 

EyeBRollin

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You also have to consider what YOU want, not just what women want. Do you want to be a woman's babysitter, secretary and valet rolled into one? I certainly don't. I do not see myself as duty-bound to devote my life to making HER life simpler. The idea that you have to lead in every conceivable situation, such as picking a table at the restaurant and choosing bedroom curtains is preposterous and smacks of insecurity. Lead when it comes to important decisions, not trivial sh*t.
Doesn’t sound like you are skilled at long term relationships. When you commit to a woman, you are assuming responsibility for her protection and well-being. Women are self-destructive, emotional creatures that destroy almost everything they touch. Every man that is involved with a woman must know this going in. If you don’t want to deal with maintaining a woman, just buy a dog for companionship and outsource all other womanly duties until you die alone.

I share the OPs sentiment. I don’t like always making decisions. Half the time, I’d prefer my woman just leave me alone and figure it out herself. I don’t care about shopping and other irrelevant shvt. However, women simply aren’t wired to make optimal decisions and most of them are aware of it. Be thankful if you have a woman that seeks your counsel on everything rather than just go down her own self-destructive path.
 

skipfontaine22

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Are you somebody who is aggressive with work/career but very laid back in the dating/relationship area?
I am an entrepeneur, and I have been quite successful.
Despite having high drive, with work and sex, I am pretty low energy and beta.
My ideal woman would just let me chill most of the time, like a cat.
 

Hamurabimbi

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I realize women dig men who lead, are decisive, driven, etc.

I am a very driven, successful individual.

I realize I need to lead in the early dates to make an impression.

But, to be honest, I don't want to lead in my long-term relationship.

If I go into a restaurant, and she's picky where we sit, I want let her talk to the host about that stuff.

Because I don't care about stuff like that.

Is that ok?

Or should I strive to always lead so my partner can fall into her feminine frame?
I noticed often women have decided prefereces for seating.
 

Bokanovsky

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Doesn’t sound like you are skilled at long term relationships. When you commit to a woman, you are assuming responsibility for her protection and well-being. Women are self-destructive, emotional creatures that destroy almost everything they touch. Every man that is involved with a woman must know this going in. If you don’t want to deal with maintaining a woman, just buy a dog for companionship and outsource all other womanly duties until you die alone.

I share the OPs sentiment. I don’t like always making decisions. Half the time, I’d prefer my woman just leave me alone and figure it out herself. I don’t care about shopping and other irrelevant shvt. However, women simply aren’t wired to make optimal decisions and most of them are aware of it. Be thankful if you have a woman that seeks your counsel on everything rather than just go down her own self-destructive path.
King Arthur just called. He wants his high horse and shining armour back. Holy sh!t dude.

Your medieval view of gender relations is hilarious. Sure, I'll "assume responsibility for her protection and we'll-being"...right after I get my rightful dowry, a castle and seven villages, from her father.

On a side note, I'm guessing you were raised by a single mother. I am correct?
 

NickSavage

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These things are always contextual. Alot of Alpha guys prefer their wives/gf to drive. But that's not OPs question. It sounds like he wants to be able to relax, not have to assert into everything. And I think that's sortof possible.

Your GF can make micro-decisions within your frame, but YOU must define the frame. If she isn't willingly participating in your frame, then pull back. If she's into you, she'll chase back into your frame.

ETA: To push the metaphor, it doesn't matter who drives. It matters where you're going. And who makes those decisions. She proposes, you decide. She complains about your decision, and you decide if her concerns are valid. Your power comes from your ability to make your own choices. Those choices define your frame. No effort at all.
 
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SargeMaximus

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I’m the same. I don’t like the “sit here, do this” BS. Maybe it’s because my mother was a strong woman who didn’t need a man (she never remarried) but honestly, women that need leadership feel like a liability to me.

Now, I’m not about to follow her lead just because she’s a woman, but if she has a good idea, then I’ll take it.
I just hate having to lead women by the hand. It incredibly exhausting. It feels like I’m dating a child if that’s the dynamic
 
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