Has online dating and game in general gotten much worse since 2020?

[SW15]

I don't know the exact statistics, 10 is surprising for men. I know the average girl nowadays is at least 1x of her age, e.g. I'd expect a 25-yr old to have a count of 25 in a major city. So the hypergamy skew distribution is really bad. I don't really have a right to complain, but I definitely do notice the overall trend in things tightening up / getting tougher vs 3 years ago.

I think a lot of SoSuave posters tend to exaggerate the number of sex partners that women have. It's a function of the types of women we tend to meet more so than actuality. The typical 25 year woman has had a few long term relationships. She definitely had one in high school. If she went to college, she likely had 1-2 there. She might have had one post college. A 25 year old woman is more likely to have a notch count of 3-7 than 25. Her pair bonding abilities at 25 aren't that much different between a 5 notch counter and a 25 notch counter.

It is fair to say that a 25 year old woman in a bigger metro area has the probability of having a higher notch count than one in a mid-sized metro or small town of less than 100,000.

Women feel a massive sense of abundance these days due to social media and dating apps and being encouraged and patted on the back by all mainstream media and other institutions. If you guys have ever watched the Fresh and Fit show, they interview girls who conflate their ability to rack up bodies with their ability to have relationships. Unfortunately what they don't understand is that in many cases their "abundance" just means they'll get with some guy like me who's just passing through and doesn't want to commit.

I just don't see things going well or getting much better for most guys these days, regardless of how apps have become worse lately.

There is zero statistical relationship between a woman's ability to get laid and her ability to have an extended relationship of some kind. The more notches she has, the more likely she's having sex with a suave, Don Juan like @s74rk.

 

[Gamisch]

I think a lot of SoSuave posters tend to exaggerate the number of sex partners that women have. It's a function of the types of women we tend to meet more so than actuality. The typical 25 year woman has had a few long term relationships. She definitely had one in high school. If she went to college, she likely had 1-2 there. She might have had one post college. A 25 year old woman is more likely to have a notch count of 3-7 than 25. Her pair bonding abilities at 25 aren't that much different between a 5 notch counter and a 25 notch counter.

It is fair to say that a 25 year old woman in a bigger metro area has the probability of having a higher notch count than one in a mid-sized metro or small town of less than 100,000.



There is zero statistical relationship between a woman's ability to get laid and her ability to have an extended relationship of some kind. The more notches she has, the more likely she's having sex with a suave, Don Juan like @s74rk.

Hmm you also gotta include, partying weekly from age 15. Vacations. Festivals. The anonymous "boredom D ". Even if she would switch bF every 6 months it would be 20 by the time she is 25, assuming that's a "good girl ".

Most woman at 25 had at least 7 ONS,s . I think most men would, without any hesitation, put a ring on a 25 woman with 7 notches on her count.

There is a reason why they added notch count to the " dont ask a woman " list besides age and weight. Because most problably lost count by the time they're 25 and up.

 

[SW15]

Most woman at 25 had at least 7 ONS,s . I think most men would, without any hesitation, put a ring on a 25 year old woman with 7 notches on her count.

I agree that most men would put a ring on a 25 year old woman with a 7 total notch count (that'd be the theoretical man we're discussing + 6 previous notches)

Putting a ring on a 25 year woman with a total partner count of 7 is a bad idea. She'd be a solid divorce risk. She might be worthy of an extended boyfriend-girlfriend relationship but definitely no ring, no cohabitation, and no kids.

Hmm you also gotta include, partying weekly from age 15. Vacations. Festivals. The anonymous "boredom D ". Even if she would switch bF every 6 months it would be 20 by the time she is 25, assuming that's a "good girl ".

There is a reason why they added notch count to the " dont ask a woman " list besides age and weight. Because most problably lost count by the time they're 25 and up.

I think a lot of men assume women have more sex than they actually do in a lot of cases. My closest friend has been with the same woman since they were in college and now they are both mid-30s. Her notch count was pretty low since they started while she was a senior in college. I doubt she had more than 3 notches when they met. While she was pretty when they met over a decade ago, she's never had incredible social skills.

Also, realize that most women turn down a ridiculous amount of penis. Think about all the "one date, no sex, no second date" dates that occur from swipe apps + all the rejections from cold approaches. The typical woman turns down a higher percentage of penis applicants than Harvard turns down prospective student applicants for undergraduate and graduate level programs. Even a 25 year old with a 25 notch count has likely turned down over 500 potential penises.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

It's over for potential peniscels

 

[forcerecon01]

online dating sucks now.

 

[Gamisch]

I agree that most men would put a ring on a 25 year old woman with a 7 total notch count (that'd be the theoretical man we're discussing + 6 previous notches)

Putting a ring on a 25 year woman with a total partner count of 7 is a bad idea. She'd be a solid divorce risk. She might be worthy of an extended boyfriend-girlfriend relationship but definitely no ring, no cohabitation, and no kids.

I'll ofcourse respect your view but is does makes me wonder where you from. A religious country or area perhaps?

Bc were I am from its highly stimulated women date around, and a 25 y.o woman without 10 notches is almost suspect.

To decline a decent 25 y.o woman with 5 -7 notches is ludacris over here.

 

[SW15]

I'll ofcourse respect your view but is does makes me wonder where you from. A religious country or area perhaps?

Bc were I am from its highly stimulated women date around, and a 25 y.o woman without 10 notches is almost suspect.

To decline a decent 25 y.o woman with 5 -7 notches is ludacris over here.

I'm in Dallas, Texas, USA. Dallas is one of the USA's biggest metro areas. This is not a majorly religious area.

Social science statistics say that a woman with a body count over 5 (and maybe even less) is a major divorce risk. This is only my opinion because there's been decent research into it. However, I am somewhat suspect of academic research given the bias of a lot of academic institutions.

Are you in Europe?

Observations on Dallas' Scene

Based on @Jesse Pinkman's write ups of New York City, Miami, and large state universities, I thought it would be worthwhile to write up Dallas, the city I call home. The Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area (DFW) is the 4th most populated metropolitan area in the United States. Dallas and Fort...

www.sosuave.net

 

[Gamisch]

I'm in Dallas, Texas, USA. Dallas is one of the USA's biggest metro areas. This is not a majorly religious area.

Social science statistics say that a woman with a body count over 5 (and maybe even less) is a major divorce risk. This is only my opinion because there's been decent research into it. However, I am somewhat suspect of academic research given the bias of a lot of academic institutions.

Are you in Europe?

Observations on Dallas' Scene

Based on @Jesse Pinkman's write ups of New York City, Miami, and large state universities, I thought it would be worthwhile to write up Dallas, the city I call home. The Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area (DFW) is the 4th most populated metropolitan area in the United States. Dallas and Fort...

www.sosuave.net

Yes I am indeed in Europe. And i do think that study has some meaning. Men subconsciously know that information has merit to it, but makes it even harder to find a partner so we conveniently deny it.

I ain't joking, I think even(some/most) Muslim women over here have a over 5 notch by age 25 bc these women struggle between our western culture of sexual freedom and their strict Islamic beliefs . And at the end of the day the law of the country stands stronger then the law of family ,religion ect .

 

[s74rk]

@SW15 definitely spitting some facts here, a girl's notch count is heavily affected by a variety of factors, but for me in a big city I go with the worst case for most chicks.

Here's the calculus from my end. Women get really horny once a month, and it's easy for them to ****. So while they're not in a committed relationship, they can easily do 1 month, or 12 a year. Maybe we can divide that by 2 if they're a little modest. A girl getting with a new guy every 60 days doesn't seem too far-fetched, right? What else exactly are women doing with their time fellas?

So then take the age they start having sex, let's be really nice and say it's 18. And let's say they've had 3 long-term relationships that lasted 1 year each, during which they were unavailable. So then 18 to 25 minus 3 years is 7, with a minimum partner count of 3. Now we add in the "1 new guy every 60 days" rule of thumb, for 6 a year, times 4 years of being single.

We get a total of 27.

So you can see realistically how I come to a number like "25 at 25" give or take. Yeah, you can say for 3-6 months at a time maybe she'll have a regular FWB or whatever, but you just end up reducing that number to 12-15 which is still kinda gross for anyone you'd take seriously. And the problem for average guys who might wife up an average girl like this is the following: her 12+ partners were *sexually selected* during her prime youth beauty years, while if she marries you at 28+, you were likely *provider selected*. So at least one of those ex's of hers is always going to be more attractive in her eyes than you. And that's just awful, no man wants that. Hence why the solution for the longest time ever was virginity and modesty...

But environment still matters a lot, and there are definitely nerdy STEM girls with limited social skills for example who might have only 3-5 count at 25. I'm still not a fan of that for a LTR, but it's certainly preferably to over 20. I'm reminded of a funny story, a while back I hooked up with a 19yr old who claimed to be a virgin, there was no blood or any signs of that when I went in, and afterwards she said "ok you're guy number 4 but the first 3 I didn't like". One those "ahahaha wtf" moments. But it goes to show that subconsciously women know that their lay count decreases their value in your eyes, hence why it's such a touchy subject for them.

I recommend people look into the concept of the OCEAN personality traits in psychology - Openness (to new experiences), Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Narcissism. In my experience, when I reflect on which girls had how high of a body count, their personalities were usually more extraverted, and higher in openness. Narcissism is bad in a potential mate for obvious reasons. If a girl is higher in conscientiousness, and she displays traits that are associated with delayed gratification, that is definitely a 'green flag'. Agreeableness can be good or bad depending; you want her to respect you and be coachable, but too agreeable and she's at the whims of society's bad influences and other bad actors in her life. But definitely check out these personality concepts if you're vetting a potential girlfriend. On the flip side, you can vet certain 'undesirable' qualities for easy smashes.

I'll have to make my next thread more LTR/vetting focused, definitely a more interesting topic for me. And something that IMO is actually *much* harder than racking up my lay count.

 

[s74rk]

Yes I am indeed in Europe. And i do think that study has some meaning. Men subconsciously know that information has merit to it, but makes it even harder to find a partner so we conveniently deny it.

I ain't joking, I think even(some/most) Muslim women over here have a over 5 notch by age 25 bc these women struggle between our western culture of sexual freedom and their strict Islamic beliefs . And at the end of the day the law of the country stands stronger then the law of family ,religion ect .

My dude, I have partaken in some extremely haram acts...

I feel so bad for the large immigrant communities who uproot and come to these liberal multicultural feminist cities and are subsequently exposed to female nature once the larger environment starts to take root. Yeah maybe they wind up at a 5 count instead of 25, but that's the first generation, the cracks have started. The younger kids on snapchat and tiktok from these cultures? It can seem like they were never religious in the first place. The parents lose frame against the wider society too, between public school (mostly female teachers, mostly feminists), smartphones, and mainstream culture, it's just a losing battle.

 

[Gamisch]

My dude, I have partaken in some extremely haram acts...

I feel so bad for the large immigrant communities who uproot and come to these liberal multicultural feminist cities and are subsequently exposed to female nature once the larger environment starts to take root. Yeah maybe they wind up at a 5 count instead of 25, but that's the first generation, the cracks have started. The younger kids on snapchat and tiktok from these cultures? It can seem like they were never religious in the first place. The parents lose frame against the wider society too, between public school (mostly female teachers, mostly feminists), smartphones, and mainstream culture, it's just a losing battle.

Yeah and it seems the western approach does better for women (be free and date around), and most men just have to live with it somehow. And that 3rd 4th generation does all kinds of crazy things ,disguised by social media and dating apps. Infamous trick is dating dudes on the other side of the countryside. Know a lotta Arabic women who DONt like arabic , but black , white dudes ect. Still ,they're supposed to " stay clean" and wait for a Arabic man to come along, and getting pushed into forced relationships. Most of my Arabic friends 30 y.o + dont even want a Arabic woman anymore, the illusion of a clean marriage is fading and they prefer a western woman bc she'll be more easy going in a LTR.

But yeah ,that the reason why we are here right? Society stimulated our women to become less capable of forming a bond with men, and the testimonies are being written every day. Dating around untill she's 40 , hits wall HARD , then wants to settle but now the tables are turned and men get to pick instead of the other way around.

Like your post above this one, about the ocean concept. Will dive deeper into it.

 

[SW15]

Women are over-fvcked and brain-fried. It’s not in your imagination. The market has changed because of the ever increasing male thirst.

Simply put, men were less thirsty collectively in 2018 than 2022.

Male thirst is ever increase. Thirst was quite bad in 2018. I recall reading about male thirst for the first time in the early to mid 2010s.

Women are getting over fuccked by a small-ish percentage of men. 26% of men 18+ were sexless in 2021. Then, there's a percentage who have irregular sex. Those are men not in relationships with minimal game, men reliant upon paid companions for sex, monogamously married men who barely get laid, etc. If you add in the marginalized groups of men, you're easily over 35% or 40% of men.

The largest marginalized group of men are the married men who have sex infrequently. Sex within marriage has been diminishing. In modern marriage, only the first 3-5 years after marriage have an amount of sex that's acceptable. After that point, it's sex 1 to 2 times a month or so. Maybe less. To an incel man, that longer term married man sex life doesn't sound like a bad deal but it is a lousy deal. It's not worth putting up with all the other shiit of a romantic relationship for 1-2 times a month sex.

Most women manage to get laid with ease, relationship or no relationship. A lot of these married women who deprive their husbands of sex are just bored of having sex with their husbands, who they've had relationships with for 5-10 years or more. Their husbands have become more beta over the years, diminishing desire. Their sex drives are fine in most cases. Some have sex outside of marriage rather easily for the novelty of feeling turned on again.

@SW15 definitely spitting some facts here, a girl's notch count is heavily affected by a variety of factors, but for me in a big city I go with the worst case for most chicks.

Here's the calculus from my end. Women get really horny once a month, and it's easy for them to ****. So while they're not in a committed relationship, they can easily do 1 month, or 12 a year. Maybe we can divide that by 2 if they're a little modest. A girl getting with a new guy every 60 days doesn't seem too far-fetched, right?

So then take the age they start having sex, let's be really nice and say it's 18. And let's say they've had 3 long-term relationships that lasted 1 year each, during which they were unavailable. So then 18 to 25 minus 3 years is 7, with a minimum partner count of 3. Now we add in the "1 new guy every 60 days" rule of thumb, for 6 a year, times 4 years of being single.

We get a total of 27.

That's a decent argument. There are some flaws with it.

I like how you made the argument building one year relationships into it. The problem is that a lot of women have relationships longer than 1 year. Although my social circle is not a representative sample, all of my friends are either married or in relationships that are 7 years or longer. I'm in my late 30s though. There were some people in the circle who got into relationships longer than a year before age 25.

The other argument would be that unpartnered women use sex toys when horny instead of upping their partner counts.

This link below is showing than the 15-30 notch count for women is becoming more common though, so now I'm arguing against myself.

How Many Sexual Partners Is Normal, Really?

Wondering how many sexual partners is normal? Here's what research says about the average number of sexual partners.

www.womenshealth.com.au

What else exactly are women doing with their time fellas?

Women are great at overscheduling their lives with meaningless activities. Younger women (those under 25) can overschedule with school-related stuff if they are in high school or college. If they join a sorority in college, there are tons of bullshiit sorority activities, some of which are community service type initiatives.

Childless women 25+ are often dealing with career-related stuff. That's the biggest time suck. There's professional networking. Some join organizations like Junior League, which is a thing for motivated careerist women to meet other careerist women and community service/charitable things. It's mainly a virtue signaling thing. Then they also have pet-related tasks, because most Millennial women are either dog or cat obsessed. There are get togethers with female friends to take pics and videos for Instagram. Women spend a ton of time on social media. I have also yet to mention the Netflix/streaming service type binge watching of video. Some women bother to exercise/go to the gym.

Married moms and single moms are both bogged down in child-related activities.

So you can see realistically how I come to a number like "25 at 25" give or take. Yeah, you can say for 3-6 months at a time maybe she'll have a regular FWB or whatever, but you just end up reducing that number to 12-15 which is still kinda gross for anyone you'd take seriously. And the problem for average guys who might wife up an average girl like this is the following: her 12+ partners were *sexually selected* during her prime youth beauty years, while if she marries you at 28+, you were likely *provider selected*. So at least one of those ex's of hers is always going to be more attractive in her eyes than you. And that's just awful, no man wants that. Hence why the solution for the longest time ever was virginity and modesty...

But environment still matters a lot, and there are definitely nerdy STEM girls with limited social skills for example who might have only 3-5 count at 25. I'm still not a fan of that for a LTR, but it's certainly preferably to over 20......subconsciously women know that their lay count decreases their value in your eyes, hence why it's such a touchy subject for them.
[/QUOTE]

All true. As a man, do you really want to be "provider selected"? Even if you don't get into a marriage with a woman, if you meet her later in life (27-40) and have a non-marital relationship, there's a much higher chance of being provider selected. You may also not be the best at sex. She might have had more/better orgasms with another partner, she was with someone with a substantially larger penis than yours, etc. She's going to be over-fuccked and brain fried as @Pan87 would say.

 

[Dust 2 Dust]

I've done online dating for over 20 years on and off. 2000-2015 was the best years for online dating. It started out as a way for introverts to find each other. In the early 2000s online dating was taboo and you weren't competing with Chad's or gassing up wannabe models. Women were down to meet up and gave out their numbers without hesitation. It was common for me to get multiple numbers in a day as opposed to now where every woman acts like you're a potential serial killer.

 

[zinc4]

Has anyone else noticed big differences from a few years ago, 2018-19, and back today? It's really night and day, here's been my experience:

In 2018 and 2019, I achieved the majority of my lays. It was great, I averaged about 1-2 new chicks a week, and broke the triple digits lay count. I don't claim to have amazing game or anything, I just made sure I always had good logistics, and I relied on good looks, decent photos, and online dating apps (tinder) to keep high volume. This is in a big coastal city, over 1M population, fairly liberal, in North America, etc.

In those years I ended up re-making my account 5 times, and each time I achieved over 1000 matches. That was when I generally noticed things dropped off, at 1000 matches. Anyways, point is, you see the caliber of profile I had: can achieve 1k matches within 2-3 months of swiping, had a 30% or so response rate, and of those 30% would agree to meet up, and of the meetups, the first day lay rate was 80%+ because logistics were good and we already pre-selected. This led to 1-2 new lays per week without problem.

Fast forward to 2020, I take a break, come back on, but now my account is getting banned, and after remaking again, it's seemingly shadowbanned (meaning I was able to re-make it but received very little activity). After much research, I find places like reddit's SwipeHelper forum, with other dudes running into the same problems, and eventually I take the steps to seemingly rectify this: new phone, new number, edit the metadata of pics and slightly digitally alter, etc.

It's 2022, I have a working account, the same profile that got me 1000s of matches effortlessly, and it works. But now? The activity is maybe 5% of what it was previously - it's a struggle to get 50 to 100 likes in a month. Boosts ($3 profile boosts) went from getting me 50 likes in an evening to maybe 5 if I'm lucky. Are these apps dying? This makes no sense to me. It's not like I stopped being attractive, the killer pics are the same. BUT it seems like Tinder and other apps are engaging in *massive throttling* or something similar.

Message patterns make no sense, people stop responding randomly. An even lower percentage of matches say anything back. And, while potentially unrelated, at least in my city there are way more trans/crossdressers/etc in the swipe deck. I don't have anything negative to say about these people, but I do think it's an interesting occurrence.

When it comes to in-person dating and game, I've noticed big changes over the last year too. People are lower energy and more timid. What used to be easy "let's meet up for drinks" has become far less common and replaced with excuses. Living in a large liberal city, I wonder how much c0vid hysteria has affected attitudes around social interactions. Though that should be back to normal by now, I guess it's hard for someone free-thinking like me, who never bought into the fear and paranoia, to understand how much the average person's psyche has been affected.

I want to hear about other people's experiences, particularly if you've been active over the last 4+ years. I feel like I've dropped from a top 5% dude to somewhere in the middle, and it makes no sense and is really frustrating. Living in these western feminist environments, we already know as men it's incredibly hard to have a good relationship, marriage and kids are risky, etc. So at least let me 'enjoy the decline' of this degenerate society lol.

It's just a lot more saturated now....especially after the pandemic started. Dating apps are considered like Facebook was a few years ago.....you are the exception not the norm if you are single and don't have them.

 

[Solomon]

Before Covid and mandates In 2019 Of winter I was killing it on Hinge and bumble (not like OP tho) but for me getting 2-5 matches a day on both app was awesome

Fast forward I'm luckily to get 2 matches a week on both app, with average women at best

I went on my first *new* date earlier this week which was fun but honestly dating for me has not been a priority since 2020 I've been more focused on crypto and weight loss but yes overall dating has sucked

I think in the future with inflation, lack of recreational income you will see more dating lead to marriage because it will be expensive In other words covid killed casual dating sure it will still be around but I think dating will be more with purpose hopefully for the better

 

[Zimbabwe]

I think in the future with inflation, lack of recreational income you will see more dating lead to marriage

No we are just going to end up like Japan, with an entire generation of young people opting out of the dating market. Birth rates are going to plummet even further.

I've done online dating for over 20 years on and off. 2000-2015 was the best years for online dating. It started out as a way for introverts to find each other. In the early 2000s online dating was taboo and you weren't competing with Chad's or gassing up wannabe models. Women were down to meet up and gave out their numbers without hesitation. It was common for me to get multiple numbers in a day as opposed to now where every woman acts like you're a potential serial killer.

Hit the nail on the head here, women's standards keep going up while the quality keeps going down.

 

[Solomon]

No we are just going to end up like Japan, with an entire generation of young people opting out of the dating market. Birth rates are going to plummet even further.



Hit the nail on the head here, women's standards keep going up while the quality keeps going down.

Let me clarify you will see the top 20% get married, this whole going to Japan won't happen when rent is gonna be to much to afford for the average man and won't women reality is gonna wake people up

BUt....

you may be right with the rise of the universe and the lack of social skills by Generation Z everyone will have girlfriends in the metaverse

The guy who has social skills will be king

I'm meeting women who are in their early 20s and 30s into cosplay and anime. 10 years ago this was quite rare now you can find them on the dating app easily

 

[Zimbabwe]

Let me clarify you will see the top 20% get married, this whole going to Japan won't happen when rent is gonna be to much to afford for the average man and won't women reality is gonna wake people up

You do realise Japan became like this because of their economic issues? They have been in deep debt and recession since the 90s.

I'm meeting women who are in their early 20s and 30s into cosplay and anime. 10 years ago this was quite rare now you can find them on the dating app easily

For every cosplay girl there is a horde of Simps, just look at how much money Belle Delphine made.

Maybe approaching them at an anime convention would be different, I don't know but I imagine there not being much competition

 

[SW15]

You do realise Japan became like this because of their economic issues? They have been in deep debt and recession since the 90s.

Japan never recovered from the Nikkei crash of 1989.

 

[s74rk]

Before Covid and mandates In 2019 Of winter I was killing it on Hinge and bumble (not like OP tho) but for me getting 2-5 matches a day on both app was awesome

Fast forward I'm luckily to get 2 matches a week on both app, with average women at best

I went on my first *new* date earlier this week which was fun but honestly dating for me has not been a priority since 2020 I've been more focused on crypto and weight loss but yes overall dating has sucked

I think in the future with inflation, lack of recreational income you will see more dating lead to marriage because it will be expensive In other words covid killed casual dating sure it will still be around but I think dating will be more with purpose hopefully for the better

Yeah this is a pretty good summary of how my online activity seems to have changed: what used to be daily results have become weekly results, in terms of matches, messages, etc (pertaining to apps). Once I get 'em in person it's still the same close rate.

I have a very hard time believing that there are 7x more people to compete against, and even harder time believing that as a relatively top guy I've somehow become 7x less attractive or something like that lol (pretty impossible when using the same pics/profile that has always worked so well).

The only explanations are some combination of:
1) Dating app algorithms have changed to throttle specific users and/or move previous results behind more pay walls, (I'm not trying that super-boost...)
2) The female population has diminished significantly and/or moved to other apps I'm not aware, (I think tinder still #1 though? Someone let me know if not)
3) C0vid and other social forces have diminished interest in the casual dating market. (Which if true, one would think might recover by now)

A quick 'field report' - after a slow month on the apps, I matched with and closed on a really cute early 20s girl. Her quality was quite a bit higher than my average over the years, so again this is confirmation that I'm not 'less attractive'. It's just weird how it took so long via the apps to get matches and messages back and forth.

Again, in terms of frequency, we could say for this year I'm much closer to 1 per month rather than 1 per week. Like a half-order-of-magnitude difference.

For whatever reasons the online golden age seems to be behind us!