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The Duke

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You have single moms, divorced women, career women, and young women that fit neither category.

We can all agree that young, never married women with no kids are the most desirable at first glance. But after that, things get more difficult.

As men we tend to desire women that are submissive, thoughtful, not so independent, and have more nurturing traits.

Out of all of the different types of women I have dated I'd say that women with children rank highest in being submissive, thoughtful, and nurturing. Yet that group gets the most hate.

Why is that? Just talking generalities here.

My current girl has no kids, divorced, and is in upper level management, attractive . If she can manage to shut her work down she is a great partner. But when she is caught up in work she is more independent, harder to get along with, less submissive. More dude like.

I've had the talk with her that her work causes problems with our relationship. She is willing to quit, but I'd never want that on my conscience.

Out of the many single mommies I dated, I never had that issue.

Seems like a divorced single mom with one kid and not so career driven was the best of all worlds.
 

Dr.Suave

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Lets say you have a 31 year old son who wants to marry soon. His only options are a childless 27year old girl and a 27 year old single mom who has three kids from three different dudes. Who would you recommend to him? If I can pull childless, I will alway prefer childless vs a single mom, but some guys are into single moms and they are free to go that way.
 
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Robert28

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Because single moms will eventually get around to asking for favors and hinting around or flat out ask to borrow money. They might have been submissive to their kids father but you are nothing more to them than a tool to be manipulated and used to benefit her and her kid. I’ve dated plenty of women that didn’t have kids and I can’t remember a one of them ever asking me for favors above and beyond, or if they did they’d make sure to return the favor. And I can’t remember a one asking for it ever needing money. So now I just steer clear of single moms if I can, you’re going to come in 3rd or whatever place anyways after her kids and her dog so why bother?
 

SW15

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You have single moms, divorced women, career women, and young women that fit neither category.

We can all agree that young, never married women with no kids are the most desirable at first glance. But after that, things get more difficult.

As men we tend to desire women that are submissive, thoughtful, not so independent, and have more nurturing traits.
The timeline of life can help explain this observation. Young women that are not career oriented, who have never married, and have no children are the most in demand women. When a man finds himself with this woman, he wants to keep her around. Remember that most men are blue pill beta males who believe in fairy tale relationships. Additionally, women also believe in the fairy tale even more so than men. So, you see a younger beta male marrying a young woman with some desirable traits. This sets up the rest of the quote.

Out of all of the different types of women I have dated I'd say that women with children rank highest in being submissive, thoughtful, and nurturing. Yet that group gets the most hate.

Why is that? Just talking generalities here.
So younger women with no children are getting into first time marriages and these are less likely to be career oriented women. Because these women are not careerists, they are more likely to have children.

Keep in mind that marriages and relationships have shelf lives of goodness. Eventually, those relationships end and you have a woman who was less likely to be a careerist who is now a single mom with 1-2 kids. Her original non-careerist nature does remain, which is why you're observing single moms out there who are submissive, thoughtful, and nurturing.

There are careerist single moms too. My guess is that @Howiestern is managing to avoid the careerist single moms. There are female doctors, female lawyers, and female business executives who are single moms too.

Single moms get hate mainly from childless men who can't cope with dealing with their schedules and their inability to put a relationship with a man first. I am a childless man who has a difficult time interacting with single moms. I could never do the relationship thing and even having them available for casual sex can be challenging. Single dads are likely a little bit more understanding of the single mom thing.

My current girl has no kids, divorced, and is in upper level management, attractive . If she can manage to shut her work down she is a great partner. But when she is caught up in work she is more independent, harder to get along with, less submissive. More dude like.

I've had the talk with her that her work causes problems with our relationship. She is willing to quit, but I'd never want that on my conscience.

Out of the many single mommies I dated, I never had that issue.
Once a man is into his 30s and 40s and dating similarly aged women, he can meet childless women. Childless women in their 30s and 40s tend to have big careers. Their career devotion in their 20s might have made them less dateable than counterparts who weren't as career oriented. Perhaps they never intended to be career women but after some bad luck in relationships from 18-25/27, they focused inwards towards their careers and became careerist.

There are a lot of reasons why a woman can turn more career focused if she doesn't find a mate.

Seems like a divorced single mom with one kid and not so career driven was the best of all worlds.
I don't agree. A woman of any age who is childless and not careerist would be the best.
 

Robert28

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I'm surprised to hear men prefer and desire women without a career.

Which would mean she makes less money, which would mean you, as a man, would become her "beta provider," needing to financially support her, which many of you guys are against!

Having a career does not automatically mean she's less feminine or less submissive at home, with you.

A woman can have a career and be extremely feminine and submissive with you, and there are women without careers who are the opposite.

I've seen both..

What am I missing? Serious question.
Career women have never been an issue for me. In all honesty, I relate better to them because I know what it’s like to live that lifestyle as I own my own business. It’s partly why I chose not to get married in my younger days and have kids, I refused to struggle and live paycheck to paycheck, I wanted to build a comfortable life for myself. The women I’m sick of are the users, the moochers, the time wasters seeking attention fixes, etc.
 

Black Widow Void

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There is no such thing as a “single mom.”
There are divorced mothers, widowed mothers, and unmarried mothers, but that’s it.
 

SW15

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What am I missing? Serious question.
It's a valid question. I'll do my best to explain it for me. What may apply to me may not be representative of all men. I think a good portion of men will find that parts of my answer do apply for them.

The first thing that I'll do is define career woman. A career woman is a woman in a white collar occupation that is demanding. She takes her professional achievements seriously and devotes a lot of hours to her career and ancillary career activities (networking events, webinars, LinkedIn, etc).

I'm surprised to hear men prefer and desire women without a career.

Which would mean she makes less money, which would mean you, as a man, would become her "beta provider," needing to financially support her, which many of you guys are against!

Having a career does not automatically mean she's less feminine or less submissive at home, with you.

A woman can have a career and be extremely feminine and submissive with you, and there are women without careers who are the opposite.
Since the Sexual Revolution and Second Wave Feminism, more women have entered the work force. If you ever watched Mad Men, the main character of Peggy Olson was a decent depiction of a pioneering era career woman, though there were some smaller bit characters (1-5 episode arcs) in Mad Men that would have been even better examples.

Prior to Second Wave Feminism, women typically worked in occupations that were traditionally feminine. Nurses, dental hygienists, K-12 teachers, secretaries/other administrative professionals, retail store workers, and so on. In the 1970s, this started to change. Women started to branch out into more career fields, typically encroaching upon what was then the territory of the white collar male. There became more female lawyers, more female business professionals, more female doctors (both MD and PhD doctors), and so on. Some of these white collar occupations are very demanding in terms of hours worked and achievements.

The new found freedom women obtained in the last 25-30 years of the 20th Century and continuing into the 21st Century came at a cost.

It has been my experience that women with demanding white collar careers have less time available to devote to things that would make them good girlfriends. While demure single moms without big careers are often hard to schedule with due to child related activities, big time career women are often difficult to schedule with due to the demands of their careers. It's very difficult to get together with a female lawyer with enough regularity to actually develop a relationship. In the short term, this is one of the biggest obstacles, but there are others that I'm about to cover.

If one can actually manage to get a female with a high powered white collar career to actually show up in person to something, her mind may not be present. She might be thinking about the next work thing she has to do, the early meeting she needs to wake up for, or any other thing that makes her less present. This doesn't make for a good impression. Also, it's against feminine energy. Feminine energy is warm, giving, and nurturing. This behavior is none of those. Men with stronger masculine energies are totally put off by this.

In a conversation with a woman with a high powered white collar career, she will often prattle on about white collar bullshiit topics, or leftist/SJW talking points. @Howiestern partially described that above. None of those things project a feminine aura that is most attractive to a lot of men. We don't care. Women with high powered white collar careers think that talking like one of the white collar men is what will build commonality with men and lead to attraction. It doesn't.

More and more women go to college/university and obtain a BA/BS degree. They might even get some advanced level degree. Due to the rising cost of education, it puts a lot of pressure about women to work hard from ages 22-35 (prime child bearing years) in order to pay off debt from their degree(s) and/or get a positive return on investment from the education. This isn't good for mating purposes. This requires her to abandon a lot of her feminine energies and obtain a more masculine frame. Also, the nature of white collar work is vicious, with the potential for layoffs often looming. Women are less vulnerable to white collar layoffs than white men is but the potential still exists.

There is a difference between a working woman with a degree and a career woman. On the surface, this can be difficult to determine. While certain types of women are almost always big time careerists (lawyers, doctors, mid-level management and up), other types of women are more difficult to read. Sales and marketing professionals are often some of the most difficult women to read because some can be big time careerists while others are more laid back and balanced.

One of the downsides of the economy of the last 3 decades that there are fewer opportunities for women who don't receive a BA/BS degree. In high school, the trade occupations are not promoted well enough, and there are some good trade school occupations for women that are more balanced than what might happen for women who pursue the BA/BS degree or advanced level degrees. Additionally, a lot of the women with only a high school diploma/GED as their highest level of educational attainment tend to be irresponsible and bad partners longer term. There is also a higher incidence of single motherhood in this population too. Women with Associate Degrees are a little bit better of a bet, especially if they get a trade certification in something useful that offers balanced hours. A dental hygienist would be a good example of this.

There is some sociological research that indicates that relational outcomes in scenarios where men outearn women are more positive. It seems good for both men and women. When women outearn men, which is occurring more and more, there is evidence of more negative relational outcomes, likely due to some of the factors described above. Men are definitely put out of their element by a high powered career women.

A man does not automatically become a "beta provider" if he outearns a woman. We feel better if we make more money than a woman does if the woman helps support us with her presence in our lives in some way. Women with big time careers don't have the time to be able to do that, even if a man is able to navigate the early stage challenges that I illustrated above.
 
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bat soup

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I've had the talk with her that her work causes problems with our relationship. She is willing to quit, but I'd never want that on my conscience.

Out of the many single mommies I dated, I never had that issue.
If she quits her job then she'll become a burden on you. I don't know why you'd want that. It's nice that she's willing to sponge off you instead of working for a living, though.
 

derby1

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Which would mean she makes less money, which would mean you, as a man, would become her "beta provider," needing to financially support her, which many of you guys are against!
wrong

dependency = loyalty.

as long as he never moves in HER welfare house.

if at any point she thinks she is equal, it is over for the male
 

Bigpapa

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I'm surprised to hear men prefer and desire women without a career.

Which would mean she makes less money, which would mean you, as a man, would become her "beta provider," needing to financially support her, which many of you guys are against!

Having a career does not automatically mean she's less feminine or less submissive at home, with you.

A woman can have a career and be extremely feminine and submissive with you, and there are women without careers who are the opposite.

I've seen both..

What am I missing? Serious question.
the problem here is the generalization

depends a lot on the priorities of a career woman .

does She want to be the CEO of the company and willing to do the leg work to secure such a position , or she is a career woman because she needs the money like anyone else

if she wants to be the next ceo , then for sure you and the rest of things in her life will come second , and will be treated as such
 

Bingo-Player

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I'm surprised to hear men prefer and desire women without a career.

Which would mean she makes less money, which would mean you, as a man, would become her "beta provider," needing to financially support her, which many of you guys are against!

Having a career does not automatically mean she's less feminine or less submissive at home, with you.

A woman can have a career and be extremely feminine and submissive with you, and there are women without careers who are the opposite.

I've seen both..

What am I missing? Serious question.

They don't but generally women without a career will be easier too fish than women with one

Career women are often by nature confident and want a man of equal or higher value .....a lot of men in them categories will already be taken so women will tend to become jaded with the options available to them thus becoming "hard work" for men who don't quite live up too her expectations

Most guys like the easy options

single mothers standards tend to be much much lower for obvious reasons so they are the easy option not because they are more or less submissive

we all know for the right man any woman will bow into her submissive nature for him
 

Grounded eagle

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Having a career does not automatically mean she's less feminine or less submissive at home, with you.
Feminism in a nutshell.The idea that women can move through the world as men do and still remain feminine.
I'm surprised to hear men prefer and desire women without a career.
Now I’ve never dated a career woman,as I’m too young.But even amongst the girls my age and younger the signs are there.Girls who are in law school,doing business courses etc,are stuck up and full of themselves already.They think of themselves as “boss ladies.”
 

devilkingx2

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I'm surprised to hear men prefer and desire women without a career.

Which would mean she makes less money, which would mean you, as a man, would become her "beta provider," needing to financially support her, which many of you guys are against!

Having a career does not automatically mean she's less feminine or less submissive at home, with you.

A woman can have a career and be extremely feminine and submissive with you, and there are women without careers who are the opposite.

I've seen both..

What am I missing? Serious question.
My take as a mid 20s guy who works retail:

I wouldn't want a career woman who-
A) is too busy or tired to go out and have fun often.
B) is really boring because she's used to conforming to/enforcing HR rules, professionalism, etc.
C) is a hardboiled cutthroat ruthless lawyer, detective, businesswoman, etc.
D) has crazy standards or a huge ego (last girl I went on a date with was really salty I hadn't heard of her corporate fashion job lol.)

I wouldn't want a single mom who-
A) would be busy/tired all the time being responsible for her family.
B) needs a lot of money from me, that's most likely going to come out of our Dave & Busters budget; so I won't be thrilled to spend my hard earned paycheck on her bills instead.
C) has crazy baby daddy drama where he's a psycho thug or something.

I usually just avoid career women and single moms but I'd take one who didnt have the above. Especially if she was a hot Latina.
 
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StacksHitEmUp

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Because single moms will eventually get around to asking for favors and hinting around or flat out ask to borrow money. They might have been submissive to their kids father but you are nothing more to them than a tool to be manipulated and used to benefit her and her kid. I’ve dated plenty of women that didn’t have kids and I can’t remember a one of them ever asking me for favors above and beyond, or if they did they’d make sure to return the favor. And I can’t remember a one asking for it ever needing money. So now I just steer clear of single moms if I can, you’re going to come in 3rd or whatever place anyways after her kids and her dog so why bother?
This is true. A single mom tried to hustle me once like this. I honestly will never date a single mom ever again. Their kids are usually little ****s aswell and the father some useless broke waste of a man. Avoid single moms at all costs.
 

SW15

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I usually just avoid career women and single moms but I'd take one who didnt have the above. Especially if she was a hot Latina.
Avoiding career women and single moms is generally a good idea. I like Latinas too. There are a lot of hot Latinas. There are many Latina single moms out there. Latinas have had the reputation of being more fertile than American white women but that's changed a little bit since the 2008 economic crash. Latina fertility rates have fallen off and aren't too different from white women in the USA now.

I wouldn't want a career woman who-
A) is too busy or tired to go out and have fun often.
B) is really boring because she's used to conforming to/enforcing HR rules, professionalism, etc.
C) is a hardboiled cutthroat ruthless lawyer, detective, businesswoman, etc.
D) has crazy standards or a huge ego (last girl I went on a date with was really salty I hadn't heard of her corporate fashion job lol.)
Those 4 traits are common in female white collar workers, even those who might not even be the most "careerist". There are levels of careerism. The most careerist women are the female doctors, lawyers, mid-level and above business managers, engineers (rare). Some of most difficult women to evaluate are women who are sales reps and non-managerial marketing professions. Some sales reps are real ball busters because sales can be dominant and masculine. There are a lot of women in marketing/advertising/public relations, so they vary a lot and a generalization can't be made.

Most white collar women have crazy standards because they are more likely to use a swipe app than a woman who works as a Walmart retail store location. That's even true for a 25-30 year old Marketing Associate who works only 40 hours a week and does not take her work too seriously, just enough to stay employed. That's not a careerist per se but even that woman will have elements of her personality resembling a career woman. Then, there are women in non-management roles who are career climbers and aspiring to get into management someday. Those women, despite not yet having the higher power titles/responsibilities/salaries, are nearly every bit as careerist because they want that.

I wouldn't want a single mom who-
A) would be busy/tired all the time being responsible for her family.
B) needs a lot of money from me, that's most likely going to come out of our Dave & Busters budget; so I won't be thrilled to spend my hard earned paycheck on her bills instead.
C) has crazy baby daddy drama where he's a psycho thug or something.
Mostly every single mom fits A. As a man, you'll never be her top priority. Even if her kids are high school aged and fairly independent, she'll prattle on about their activities and still be busy dealing with their shiit. Women with younger children are the worst. Some men in their 40s can justify dealing with similarly aged women with children who are in high school and most of the way grown up. I would still find that annoying in a lot of ways.

The B group is mostly lower income, though some mid-income women would fall under there. A lot of women get money from their exes so that's not as big of a concern in a lot of cases. It becomes a bigger concern if her ex husband is in category C because she's probably not getting money from a Category C guy. If her ex husband was white collar worker Beta Bob, she's getting her money from him and probably won't ask a new guy for money.

I don't want to deal with single moms. It's possible to get some casual sex from them if you can put up with their schedules and you not being a priority but even dealing with that gets tiresome.

I'm in my late 30s. I've gone this far without having children. Why would I want to date a woman who is 30-37 and had kids from another man? I don't think I'd have too much in common with her. I'd have more in common with a childless woman in 30s. Those childless women in their 30s often have some serious issues, but you're not dealing with the single mommy issue, which is one of the biggest issues you can encounter.
 

Barrister

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Or an easier way to classify them: Cluster B vs non-cluster B. They can be found across all of the other categories - but I will say careerist women tend to be narcissistic. I don’t know how someone deals with them for very long based on my own experience.
 

Chuck Taylor

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A woman's role is to take care of the family and keep the home in order.

A career-oriented woman who vigorously keeps up with her LinkedIn page and who is determined to shatter through that glass ceiling one day - men shouldn't desire this type of woman.
 
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