She thought it would not be a problem

[Blacksheep]

I'm dating a girl and we are exclusively to each other. She demonstrates a high interest level but it seems she is trying to play with me.

Last night we were together, she got her phone showed me her whatsapp... I asked her if she wanted to see mine, she said yes. Also I deleted some contacts in front of her. As I told her I don't believe in opposite sex friendship on a relationship (I was clear to her with that, cause if she didn't agree with that we wouldn't start dating. She agreed and said that she thought its right too).

Okay, then she showed her contacts, there were 2 guys she gave an excuse. One she said he was like a brother, as they know each other since childhood. The second, a friend from college that she said helped her a lot there. She then said that she kept them there cause she thought they would not be a problem.

I asked her: "We have talked about that, I was very clear with you that I don't believe those things. We both agreed with that, you said you didnt believe too. And then you say those guys are an exception?"

When I talk about opposite sex friendship I always say that I don't want to change someone's mind. I prefer both following different directions than assuming a commitment without believing that too. And the same way I don't want to cause it to someone I don't want to cause to myself and what I believe too. I won't change that, and I prefer to be clear with that before starting anything. So at a point someone says that she also agree with it and decided by her free will to commit to that too and then give a excuse like that... For me it only shows I can't trust in that person.

In any other situation I would just leave and stop wasting my time, but this one I started to have feelings for her. So I would like to ask some help to understand this and have more clarity over the situation.

 

[RickTheToad]

It really isn't a big deal. However, since you already agreed to it, this is no a problem. It could be seen like a test to see what you would do if she violates something both of you already agreed to.. You need to stay firm and if she doesn't comply or continues to break the agreement, you need to leave. It's a respect issue now.

 

[Blacksheep]

It really isn't a big deal. However, since you already agreed to it, this is no a problem. It could be seen like a test to see what you would do if she violates something both of you already agreed to.. You need to stay firm and if she doesn't comply or continues to break the agreement, you need to leave. It's a respect issue now.

Thats a good point! Gonna keep that in mind and if that happens again, then its a proof that she doesnt respect our relationship.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Black Widow Void]

Many times on this forum, I've said that a woman that emotionally cheats is not different than a man that physically cheats. However, from what you've written, it doesn't sound like she's actually cheating.

I completely understand your concerns here, but in this case, I'd give her a hall-pass.

A childhood friend isn't the same as a real-life orbiter or social media attention giver.

the helpful friend from college? I probably wouldn't like this either, but if they aren't in real-life contact and they didn't have some former heavy romance, I'd keep cool with things.

I get it. You feel betrayed. However, when looking at their history, this doesn't appear to really pose any sort of threat.

If you make an issue of this, it'll create some unnecessary drama (been there, myself). Also, no matter how much you explain that it's not jealousy, but that you felt betrayed, she will only see this as you being jealous, controlling and sensitive. This isn't a put down. I speak from previous personal experience on this one.

You'll likely receive several responses about "frame" "walking away" etc... There are a lot of unsuccessful men here that simply write what they've previously read .... instead of basing things on their actual experiences.

Maintaining boundaries is of course important, but so is allowing a little bit of wiggle room.

 

[Modern Man Advice]

I'm dating a girl and we are exclusively to each other. .... but it seems she is trying to play with me.

Last night we were together, she got her phone showed me her whatsapp... I asked her if she wanted to see mine, she said yes. Also I deleted some contacts in front of her.

This ^^. No, no, no. Big no.

But anyway to your inquiry, with all due respect it sounds like the start of a toxic relationship. I do agree with you regarding friendships between the opposite sex. Unless there is absolutely no sexual intend on either or both sides, it will never be genuine. And as we all know men will always crave sex. She could be in a serious relationship, seeing someone, single, HB5+, etc, etc but given the opportunity, men will shoot their shot. She might say "Oh but I will never allow it to happen, that is not how I feel, etc, etc". One, women's words are trivial. Two, it only takes one side to want it to make it conditional.

And that is the key to your inquiry, she needs to understand that intergender friendships are conditional. It will never be genuine.

But I can't help to go back to that part, I don't care how much you like the girl and want to commit. You never do what you did. And I am not talking about deleting the contacts. If you wanted to delete them that is fine. But asking her if she wanted to see your WhatsApp and delete contacts in front of her is problematic. It is absolutely setting the wrong mindset within the relationship. Be careful.

It sounds like a toxic interaction from BOTH ends.


Modern Man Advice

 

[Blacksheep]

Many times on this forum, I've said that a woman that emotionally cheats is not different than a man that physically cheats. However, from what you've written, it doesn't sound like she's actually cheating.

I completely understand your concerns here, but in this case, I'd give her a hall-pass.

A childhood friend isn't the same as a real-life orbiter or social media attention giver.

the helpful friend from college? I probably wouldn't like this either, but if they aren't in real-life contact and they didn't have some former heavy romance, I'd keep cool with things.

I get it. You feel betrayed. However, when looking at their history, this doesn't appear to really pose any sort of threat.

If you make an issue of this, it'll create some unnecessary drama (been there, myself). Also, no matter how much you explain that it's not jealousy, but that you felt betrayed, she will only see this as you being jealous, controlling and sensitive. This isn't a put down. I speak from previous personal experience on this one.

You'll likely receive several responses about "frame" "walking away" etc... There are a lot of unsuccessful men here that simply write what they've previously read .... instead of basing things on their actual experiences.

Maintaining boundaries is of course important, but so is allowing a little bit of wiggle room.

That's a very good point man. And I think you're right on that.

I don't hide the fact that those things make me insecure since I had so many negative experiences with some ex gf cheating on me with her friends (not only that but listening to cases of other guys talking about those situations). So I decided to follow that path and don't believe anymore in those things, because statistically whenever I tried to find a way to accept that I was cheated or lied about it. It seems life showed me how this can suck. So I see that like risk management... And that became a kind of risk I would not want to deal with anymore.

So when those things happen, even not being a big deal it triggers old memories that hurt me. And that's why I have difficulty in dealing with that in a better way.

I'm gonna try to cool down on that and deal with those feelings.

Thank you so much for your feedback!

 

[Blacksheep]

This ^^. No, no, no. Big no.

But anyway to your inquiry, with all due respect it sounds like the start of a toxic relationship. I do agree with you regarding friendships between the opposite sex. Unless there is absolutely no sexual intend on either or both sides, it will never be genuine. And as we all know men will always crave sex. She could be in a serious relationship, seeing someone, single, HB5+, etc, etc but given the opportunity, men will shoot their shot. She might say "Oh but I will never allow it to happen, that is not how I feel, etc, etc". One, women's words are trivial. Two, it only takes one side to want it to make it conditional.

And that is the key to your inquiry, she needs to understand that intergender friendships are conditional. It will never be genuine.

But I can't help to go back to that part, I don't care how much you like the girl and want to commit. You never do what you did. And I am not talking about deleting the contacts. If you wanted to delete them that is fine. But asking her if she wanted to see your WhatsApp and delete contacts in front of her is problematic. It is absolutely setting the wrong mindset within the relationship. Be careful.

It sounds like a toxic interaction from BOTH ends.


Modern Man Advice

Thanks for your feedback man, it makes sense.

What do you think it would be a better behavior by my side? If in some way I found out she is justifying keeping contact with some guys?

 

[Modern Man Advice]

Thanks for your feedback man, it makes sense.

What do you think it would be a better behavior by my side? If in some way I found out she is justifying keeping contact with some guys?

It is never an easy and simple answer. There is much to consider before deciding on an approach/plan.

You obviously like this girl and she sounds committed with a healthy level of interest (something rare these days). But at the end of the day, there are two things to consider regardless of context:

1) Boundaries - Any healthy relationship, whether romantic or platonic, has strong and well-defined boundaries. Set yours and do not overstep them.
2) Standards - Not only is it a reflection of your sense of self-worth but it is highly attractive. An attractive quality. Set your standards and ask yourself, is this something you will tolerate or not? Have a clear and assertive conversation with her.

Last but not least, the reality is that you will never be able to swat every orbiter away. There will always be one or two flying around like flies. Accept and embrace it. But do not show any sign of insecurity or fear because of it. Focus on what you can control, your actions, your words, your worth, yourself. Do not focus on what you cannot control, orbiters, others' actions, her words.

Hope that makes sense and keep us posted so we can help you through this.


Modern Man Advice

 

[Blacksheep]

It is never an easy and simple answer. There is much to consider before deciding on an approach/plan.

You obviously like this girl and she sounds committed with a healthy level of interest (something rare these days). But at the end of the day, there are two things to consider regardless of context:

1) Boundaries - Any healthy relationship, whether romantic or platonic, has strong and well-defined boundaries. Set yours and do not overstep them.
2) Standards - Not only is it a reflection of your sense of self-worth but it is highly attractive. An attractive quality. Set your standards and ask yourself, is this something you will tolerate or not? Have a clear and assertive conversation with her.

Last but not least, the reality is that you will never be able to swat every orbiter away. There will always be one or two flying around like flies. Accept and embrace it. But do not show any sign of insecurity or fear because of it. Focus on what you can control, your actions, your words, your worth, yourself. Do not focus on what you cannot control, orbiters, others' actions, her words.

Hope that makes sense and keep us posted so we can help you through this.


Modern Man Advice

Those are interesting points! Agree with that.

I believe about the boundaries, and I also tried to do that when we started. I explained her about those things about friends, that I do not tolerate that on a relationship. That's bothering me a bit because it seems she is making fool of herself, like if I didn't explained it. And she said that totally agree with that the first time we talked about.

I felt that this boundary was broken with that behavior of her. But I don't know if that is a reason for leaving.

What I'm 100% sure of is that if something like that happens again or if out of nothing an orbiter arrives and she opens her doors to that guy I will leave without a word.

It's so strong on me that I really don't care being alone, it's better alone than disrespecting myself accepting something I don't believe.

Thanks for your tips man, it makes sense and helped a lot!

 

[AureliusMaximus]

A childhood friend isn't the same as a real-life orbiter or social media attention giver.

Exactly what I was thinking too.
I would have real issues with some random dudes, but a friend that she known since she was like 5 or so isn't a issue.

 

[SW15]

Never have that conversation. Sincerely, someone that has had that conversation too many times.

Agree

 

[firstbornunicorn]

You're being a bit too neurotic and it's not attractive. I've never, EVER, had this conversation. There's a difference between dominant and domineering.

 

[The Duke]

OP- you come across as very rigid and as I read further it comes from insecurity as suspected. Controlling the situation like your are is artificial. She will find other ways. Work on you. Learn to select women that are less prone to cheat.

 

[metalwater]

it's a real concern because you feel it. I have a slightly different idea on this.

The first thing is it's about you. but I don't mean that in any bad ways. I mean you know what you want. do not accept something that bothers you. especially early like this, later when/if you have kids and years already and some crap happens then you MUST try to manage it. for now, you are still in the choosing and filtering time. you have WAY more power and choices now than you will later. some times you can ask me how I know that...haha..

If you don't like it, it's not ok for you.

The way you tell about these two men, probably the childhood friend is ok and the other one not so much. if they became friends before puberty then it might be ok.. the college one, the guy wanted sex with her in the past is why they are friends.

Any new guys showing up is the reason for immediate suspicion. I believe in open access to phones for each other, like a joint resource. If she needs privacy from you for anything other than planning your birthday party, you have to wonder why. Trust and insecurity are deadly buzz words that are used to hide issues.

Now you have played your hand already and removed any mystery and solidified a position of honesty and service and nobility. I love that, she might interpret that as being very secure already and not feeling the need to try so hard to meet your standards. Keep your eyes open and enjoy the time with her.

probably your gut will tell you if something is off until then give it a try.

 

[Blacksheep]

OP- you come across as very rigid and as I read further it comes from insecurity as suspected. Controlling the situation like your are is artificial. She will find other ways. Work on you. Learn to select women that are less prone to cheat.

I agree with that. Trying to control something is not a good way. Lying, cheating and manipulating is easy if someone wants to hide it.

Thats why I created a belief that both should follow some decision because they want/believe that. What I'm thinking is if she agreed because she was afraid of me leaving or if she really agree. Cause it doesn't make sense to agree to something and do not show those behaviors.

 

[Blacksheep]

it's a real concern because you feel it. I have a slightly different idea on this.

The first thing is it's about you. but I don't mean that in any bad ways. I mean you know what you want. do not accept something that bothers you. especially early like this, later when/if you have kids and years already and some crap happens then you MUST try to manage it. for now, you are still in the choosing and filtering time. you have WAY more power and choices now than you will later. some times you can ask me how I know that...haha..

If you don't like it, it's not ok for you.

The way you tell about these two men, probably the childhood friend is ok and the other one not so much. if they became friends before puberty then it might be ok.. the college one, the guy wanted sex with her in the past is why they are friends.

Any new guys showing up is the reason for immediate suspicion. I believe in open access to phones for each other, like a joint resource. If she needs privacy from you for anything other than planning your birthday party, you have to wonder why. Trust and insecurity are deadly buzz words that are used to hide issues.

Now you have played your hand already and removed any mystery and solidified a position of honesty and service and nobility. I love that, she might interpret that as being very secure already and not feeling the need to try so hard to meet your standards. Keep your eyes open and enjoy the time with her.

probably your gut will tell you if something is off until then give it a try.

Those are very good observations! Thanks for that man!

Something that bothers me is the fact that I was open with her from the beginning about it. I said I would prefer to expose this starting point, because if it were different beliefs, we should not assume any exclusive relationship. (Perhaps a mistake to expose it that way).

She said she also believed everything I said, and commented that her brother once said, "There is no such thing as friendship between a man and a woman." And so she agreed to go that way. Then she deactivated her social media (Instagram/Facebook) soon after. About 7 days passed, she reactivated again and then this fact occurred in the contacts on the phone.

After she turned social media back on, I saw a profile of a guy she liked pretty much every photo of. He took shirtless pictures showing off muscles and with some sexual overtones. I wondered if she had ever been on a date or had any interest in this guy. She said that she liked his photos out of interest (romantic or sexual) and that she never wanted to date him (nor did he hit on her). And that he was her sister-in-law's brother, that is, he must be present in some social situations in the family. After that she deleted her instagram (I didn't ask for it, I just made it clear that these kinds of things went totally against the belief about opposite-sex friendships. She hadn't interacted with it after she started dating me. At least, she didnt keep her instagram enough so I could check it). Obviously I couldn't believe it, as I saw that the unattractive men who followed her on instagram she barely interacted on their posts with likes.

Anyway, a few days passed and we were talking on whatsapp. I said that I was very happy with her, for the good times and that there were a lot of good feelings about it. She asked me what those feelings were. I said jokingly that I wouldn't say this first. So she asked me if I love her. And I asked her back, then she said she didn't feel that yet. Then I ended up saying that I felt that way about her and I felt like an idiot, because I thought it was reciprocal for her asking and for the things she said when we were together. This seemed to me to be either a game, or some Sh!t test I don't know. But I hate that kind of thing. Because after that she came saying that she loved me but that she was afraid to say it because in other relationships when she said that, the other guys abandoned her. This justification was meaningless to me.

I honestly felt like an idiot in these situations I described. When I think I can allow myself to connect with someone and show some kind of affection, most of the time it always happens. When I'm cold and I don't give a damn, women show much more respect. Looking at this situation as if I'm out of it... It seems I'm completely idiot, and when I have feelings for someone it's like it make me behave that way. So I can take 2 conclusions:

1 - Men should never show any kind of feeling or romantic feeling. Otherwise women will play with you.
2 - I'm doing very poor choices of women and I didn't found one that could have genuine feelings without playing games.

 

[2Rocky]

I'm dating a girl and we are exclusively to each other. She demonstrates a high interest level but it seems she is trying to play with me.

Last night we were together, she got her phone showed me her whatsapp... I asked her if she wanted to see mine, she said yes. Also I deleted some contacts in front of her. As I told her I don't believe in opposite sex friendship on a relationship (I was clear to her with that, cause if she didn't agree with that we wouldn't start dating. She agreed and said that she thought its right too).

Okay, then she showed her contacts, there were 2 guys she gave an excuse. One she said he was like a brother, as they know each other since childhood. The second, a friend from college that she said helped her a lot there. She then said that she kept them there cause she thought they would not be a problem.

I asked her: "We have talked about that, I was very clear with you that I don't believe those things. We both agreed with that, you said you didnt believe too. And then you say those guys are an exception?"

When I talk about opposite sex friendship I always say that I don't want to change someone's mind. I prefer both following different directions than assuming a commitment without believing that too. And the same way I don't want to cause it to someone I don't want to cause to myself and what I believe too. I won't change that, and I prefer to be clear with that before starting anything. So at a point someone says that she also agree with it and decided by her free will to commit to that too and then give a excuse like that... For me it only shows I can't trust in that person.

In any other situation I would just leave and stop wasting my time, but this one I started to have feelings for her. So I would like to ask some help to understand this and have more clarity over the situation.

So we both came into our relationships with 40+ years of past friends, enemies, experiences, and beliefs. We cannot change each other's past. But we can build a future together. I wouldn't ask my partner not to maintain a 30 year friendship with a family friend who happens to be of the opposite sex. That would be inconsiderate of me. and the vice versa is true as well...

As we do make new acquaintances together we do it as a couple. She isn't going to go have lunch with a single guy one on one and I'm not going to meet my female coworker for a drink after work. But we are going to be friendly with our kid's friends' parents, and teachers. That's what you do. Male or female. We are not going to engage in any behavior we have to hide from the other because they would be hurt. That's it...

 

[Blacksheep]

So we both came into our relationships with 40+ years of past friends, enemies, experiences, and beliefs. We cannot change each other's past. But we can build a future together. I wouldn't ask my partner not to maintain a 30 year friendship with a family friend who happens to be of the opposite sex. That would be inconsiderate of me. and the vice versa is true as well...

As we do make new acquaintances together we do it as a couple. She isn't going to go have lunch with a single guy one on one and I'm not going to meet my female coworker for a drink after work. But we are going to be friendly with our kid's friends' parents, and teachers. That's what you do. Male or female. We are not going to engage in any behavior we have to hide from the other because they would be hurt. That's it...

That can actually work and it seems fair in some cases.

I just can't believe the fact that childhood opposite-sex friendships are free from any kind of sexual desire in one of them. Not telling this is the only truth... I just prefer not to take the risk of it based on what I've experienced/seen in life.

Obviously, I don't wanna force anyone into cutting out an opposite-sex friend if she doesn't believe that. I prefer to follow different paths and allow myself to find another woman who is more aligned with that belief (the same for the woman).

The problem I face with that is in some cases a woman can lie about that only to void ending up the date or be afraid of losing. Then she falsely agrees with that and later on, she hides it and keeps doing those things.

 

[Blacksheep]

Haha there it is man. Rationalizing hampster.
This is how you fix this OP.
Reword this in your mind as

"She wants exclusivity to me but she is unsure about what I want"

If she is decent the above script flip should clean those contacts up. But honestly she will probably keep some orbiters.
They all do.
+1 if you keep your own and stop with this exclusivity stuff while "dating" for atleast 1-2 ,years. Maybe even 3

About she being unsure about what I want, you mean that I should make her feel unsure of what I want with her? Or is it only something that I have to keep in my mind? I didn't get this point so well.

About the orbiters, this is very annoying. Sometimes I think that's practically impossible to have a relationship where each one really commits to each other. And I tend to think that I'm deluding myself trying to find some kind of genuine relationship.