How liberty ends?

AttackFormation

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Libertarians do not believe in no taxation and no police. That's anarchism.

The difference between believing in a responsible, limited government vs. the nanny state is akin to the difference between sitting on your porch and enjoying a beer on a hot day vs. being a full-blown alcoholic.

Did you know that there was no income tax in countries like U.S.A., Canada and Australia until the the 1910's? Let that sink in: no income tax on business or personal income. And yet, the military, police, postal service and other things that governments provide all existed back in those days. It could all be afforded without massive taxes and deficits. Granted, you did not have 19 intelligence agencies, 79 means-tested government programs, over 430 government departments, agencies and sub-agencies (this is solely for the federal government),
and a federal workforce that is now in excess of ten million people (over 3% of the entire U.S. population).
Yep, i know! hehe... i just like to see what happens when people have to translate their ideology into reality. Do they admit there's a contradiction or not, and then, do they become pragmatic or not.

I agree that means tested programs are wasteful compared to just giving resident citizens a basic income, enough to pay for the bare necessity of staying alive. As for the other government agencies, i dont have any resolved idea of which ones are necessary and which ones are not.
 

HaleyBaron

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Yep, i know! hehe... i just like to see what happens when people have to translate their ideology into reality. Do they admit there's a contradiction or not, and then, do they become pragmatic or not.
I'm not liberterian but I can argue for most of their views. Lay it in on me and try to catch me in a contradiction.
 

AttackFormation

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Masks do not prevent the transmission of the disease, despite what the legacy institutions say. Objectively the person without the mask did not pose a threat to the mob. However there is something to be said about the fact that one cannot expect people to be omniscient; they trusted these institutions for information because they can't be bothered to research or think for themselves. Because of their ignorance and the ongoing perceived threat, they felt the need to enforce a measure that they thought would protect them.



This is where I would get into political philosophy. The first point I make here is that politics, in its correct form is an application of ethics. This is the legislative function. The executive branch, such as the police, exist to enforce the law. There are situations where I have observed police professionally enforcing the law as it is written, however the law is not ethical in the objective sense; it was not a policing problem but a legislative one.

As far as taxation; this is a good point to bring up. The government in its proper form protects individual rights. That requires a police force, military, courts, etc. This is not cheap. To collect taxes by force is a violation of individual rights. The solution that is often proposed is levying indirect taxes, such as tariffs and sales taxes. Will that be enough? I would hope so.
I admit that i havent researched how any particular mask interacts with any particular virus, but i trust the collective recommendations of the people who spend their lives researching such topics. That's not a baseless "lack of thinking", it's a deliberation. Can people and agencies lie? yea, but in this case, i find it particularly unlikely that they would - and if they do, i dont see it as a particularly harmful lie. If it was something like lying about lead and claiming it isnt toxic, lying about cigarettes and claiming they arent toxic, lying about microplastics and plastics in general and saying they dont pollute, then it would actually cause harm.

Yea, so unless you become pragmatic, then you have to dismantle everything that isnt 100% voluntary. It doesnt matter if it's a VAT, a tariff, a sales tax, if it isn't 100% voluntary, then you have to admit to pragmatism.
 

AttackFormation

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I'm not liberterian but I can argue for most of their views. Lay it in on me and try to catch me in a contradiction.
We already talked about one, the fact that taxation is a violation of the NAP (non aggression principle) but right libertarian states are supposed to retain taxation. Resolving that contradiction forces you to either be more ideologically moderate and pragmatic, or dismantle any kind of revenue raising that isnt 100% voluntary according to the subjects of the taxation.
 

HaleyBaron

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We already talked about one, the fact that taxation is a violation of the NAP (non aggression principle) but right libertarian states are supposed to retain taxation. Resolving that contradiction forces you to either be more ideologically moderate and pragmatic, or dismantle any kind of revenue raising that isnt 100% voluntary according to the subjects of the taxation.
No taxes period. All volunteer, which is exactly how it's suppose to be. If the state sucks at providing services that private companies can do better, then they get no money period.
 

Plinco

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I admit that i havent researched how any particular mask interacts with any particular virus, but i trust the collective recommendations of the people who spend their lives researching such topics. That's not a baseless "lack of thinking", it's a deliberation. Can people and agencies lie? yea, but in this case, i find it particularly unlikely that they would - and if they do, i dont see it as a particularly harmful lie. If it was something like lying about lead and claiming it isnt toxic, lying about cigarettes and claiming they arent toxic, lying about microplastics and plastics in general and saying they dont pollute, then it would actually cause harm.
You do realize the elites that own the media have an agenda, right? They just report and promote one side of the story. Politically they push what's not good for people every time.
 

HaleyBaron

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AureliusMaximus

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Started with income tax. Was temporary remember?
Yes I do. They always first start with telling it will be a temporary change/temporary law to sell it in, but they always ends up being permanent. Just like the now with covid "temporary" pandemic laws. That is how this old remedy is always sold to the public.

Quite frankly I worried about it because the historic pattern is and always has been the same.
 

HaleyBaron

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DonJuanjr

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All this gun confiscation talk is irrelevant anyways. If it came to that, the country would balkanize. Good luck with the anti gun/anti freedom states invading states where all the firearms supporters migrate to. There truly would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.
 
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