The importance of advancing to intimacy as soon as possible or....?

Sebastian0001

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A lot of times I hear people on this forum emphasize the importance of advancing with a woman to intimacy (minimum kiss or more) as soon as possible in the dating process and ideally after date 1 or date 2. And that, if this doesn't happen, the man will most likely be placed in the friend zone. But, if this is true, how do all of those relationships happen where people say that they were friends for a while and then things changed or how a woman says she said no to a guy many times to date but then after many rebuttals she said yes. I've heard women celebrities or other women public figures talk about this sometimes. Like how she was just friends with her now spouse for a long time, and not at all interested in him romantically, but his persistence eventually was endearing. It seems in these cases, even though the guy was not able to achieve success on his advances, he was still somehow not friend-zoned and eventually got the woman? How do you explain these cases? And there are many of them I read about.
 

BadBoy89

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how do all of those relationships happen where people say that they were friends for a while and then things changed or how a woman says she said no to a guy many times to date but then after many rebuttals she said yes.
The yes isn't coming from a sexy alpha perspective, it's coming from a utility beta perspective. The man is useful to her, he doesn't necessarily turn her on.

All women dream about the sexy alpha male, they don't dream about the relationship man, the husband who provides and drives the kid to soccer practice. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it is just their biology.

Now if a man wants to hang around a girl enough hoping she falls in love and sleeps with him, that's his prerogative. She may make him wait and jump through some hoops. But if a James Bond comes along and he's got 24 hours before he goes to Spain, she is not making him wait.

A man wants to be a "lover", not a "provider".
 

Bokanovsky

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But, if this is true, how do all of those relationships happen where people say that they were friends for a while and then things changed or how a woman says she said no to a guy many times to date but then after many rebuttals she said yes. I've heard women celebrities or other women public figures talk about this sometimes. Like how she was just friends with her now spouse for a long time, and not at all interested in him romantically, but his persistence eventually was endearing.
This happens occasionally. I personally knew a guy in college who was chasing after a girl (who is now his wife) for six months before she even agreed to go on a date with him. The question is not whether it’s theoretically possible but whether it’s worth the time and effort, especially if you have other options (and you should always try to maximize your options).

The other problem is the power inherent power imbalance in this kind of a relationship. If you are the guy who had to befriend and chase her in order for her to “give you a chance”, who do you think is going to wear the pants in the relationship? You will always be that suboptimal guy that she settled for and will be treated accordingly.
 

Sebastian0001

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This happens occasionally. I personally knew a guy in college who was chasing after a girl (who is now his wife) for six months before she even agreed to go on a date with him. The question is not whether it’s theoretically possible but whether it’s worth the time and effort, especially if you have other options (and you should always try to maximize your options).

The other problem is the power inherent power imbalance in this kind of a relationship. If you are the guy who had to befriend and chase her in order for her to “give you a chance”, who do you think is going to wear the pants in the relationship? You will always be that suboptimal guy that she settled for and will be treated accordingly.
i'd say that it could be worth if it if she is super attractive and if you are also pursuing other women at the same time and not wasting time only focused on her
 

BackInTheGame78

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A lot of times I hear people on this forum emphasize the importance of advancing with a woman to intimacy (minimum kiss or more) as soon as possible in the dating process and ideally after date 1 or date 2. And that, if this doesn't happen, the man will most likely be placed in the friend zone. But, if this is true, how do all of those relationships happen where people say that they were friends for a while and then things changed or how a woman says she said no to a guy many times to date but then after many rebuttals she said yes. I've heard women celebrities or other women public figures talk about this sometimes. Like how she was just friends with her now spouse for a long time, and not at all interested in him romantically, but his persistence eventually was endearing. It seems in these cases, even though the guy was not able to achieve success on his advances, he was still somehow not friend-zoned and eventually got the woman? How do you explain these cases? And there are many of them I read about.
That isn't true at all...and honestly, the best relationships I have had were ones where sex didn't happen until the 4th date or later.

I have never had good success with sex on date 1. Personally, I think if you have something valuable to offer women, it won't matter because they will want to continue seeing you. If you don't then you feel the need to have to rush things because you are afraid they will realize you don't have much to offer and will bounce so it's a race against the clock.

Just my opinion, and how I have seen things play out for me.
 

2Rocky

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it is about setting the tone sexually with the woman. What ever you spike her emotions with in the early stages will set the tone for the rest of the relationship. Did you make her Dopamine spike by giving her an orgasm or by spending money on a lavish dinner and gifts.....
 

tightsocks

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This happens occasionally. I personally knew a guy in college who was chasing after a girl (who is now his wife) for six months before she even agreed to go on a date with him. The question is not whether it’s theoretically possible but whether it’s worth the time and effort, especially if you have other options (and you should always try to maximize your options).

The other problem is the power inherent power imbalance in this kind of a relationship. If you are the guy who had to befriend and chase her in order for her to “give you a chance”, who do you think is going to wear the pants in the relationship? You will always be that suboptimal guy that she settled for and will be treated accordingly.
I don't necessarily agree with the power statement here. If you chase and eventually she concedes and "falls in love" and then you play the game correctly you could definitely regain the power. You can recover power at any time.
 

SargeMaximus

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That isn't true at all...and honestly, the best relationships I have had were ones where sex didn't happen until the 4th date or later.

I have never had good success with sex on date 1. Personally, I think if you have something valuable to offer women, it won't matter because they will want to continue seeing you. If you don't then you feel the need to have to rush things because you are afraid they will realize you don't have much to offer and will bounce so it's a race against the clock.

Just my opinion, and how I have seen things play out for me.
Something to offer the woman? Isnt that a provider frame?

From my experience: sex as fast as possible is ideal. The longer an interaction goes before sex the more likely she will lose interest. Also, taking things slow seems to be a turn off as well, a sort of “he’s willing to wait…” frame creeps in and then she begins to wonder why you’re willing to wait. No options? Oneitis?

I’ve yet to have slow play work.

As for kissing, I’ve also noticed that if you kiss a girl in a date but don’t fvck her or get sexual (bj, fingering) she will ghost as well because ASD creeps in
 

Sebastian0001

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Something to offer the woman? Isnt that a provider frame?

From my experience: sex as fast as possible is ideal. The longer an interaction goes before sex the more likely she will lose interest. Also, taking things slow seems to be a turn off as well, a sort of “he’s willing to wait…” frame creeps in and then she begins to wonder why you’re willing to wait. No options? Oneitis?

I’ve yet to have slow play work.

As for kissing, I’ve also noticed that if you kiss a girl in a date but don’t fvck her or get sexual (bj, fingering) she will ghost as well because ASD creeps in
what's ASD?
 

SargeMaximus

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what's ASD?
Anti slvt defense

 

BackInTheGame78

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Something to offer the woman? Isnt that a provider frame?

From my experience: sex as fast as possible is ideal. The longer an interaction goes before sex the more likely she will lose interest. Also, taking things slow seems to be a turn off as well, a sort of “he’s willing to wait…” frame creeps in and then she begins to wonder why you’re willing to wait. No options? Oneitis?

I’ve yet to have slow play work.

As for kissing, I’ve also noticed that if you kiss a girl in a date but don’t fvck her or get sexual (bj, fingering) she will ghost as well because ASD creeps in
Nah, it's called knowing your worth and not having a lacking mindset.

That's because your conversational and social skills are poor. You struggle to have any type of meaningful interactions with women based on your own admissions. Hence what I wrote. You are afraid the longer it goes, the more she will lose interest based on your lack of value.

I don't struggle in that area, plus I typically have at least 3 or 4 women in my pipeline that I am banging at any one time so it's not a big deal if I wait because I am not hungry.

I honestly believe the best decision any woman can make is to be with me. If she can't make it then too bad for her.
 
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SargeMaximus

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I honestly believe the best decision any woman can make is to be with me. If she can't make it then too bad for her.
It’s funny because I believe that too. The difference is one has to prove it which is why I’ve begun to suspect a beta or supplicating element is needed.

If I truly have to improve my social skills, it will only be to appease women I am doing it. It won’t come because I genuinely want to. So you see in my case I have a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation
 

oldmanofthesea

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The yes isn't coming from a sexy alpha perspective, it's coming from a utility beta perspective. The man is useful to her, he doesn't necessarily turn her on.

All women dream about the sexy alpha male, they don't dream about the relationship man, the husband who provides and drives the kid to soccer practice. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it is just their biology.

Now if a man wants to hang around a girl enough hoping she falls in love and sleeps with him, that's his prerogative. She may make him wait and jump through some hoops. But if a James Bond comes along and he's got 24 hours before he goes to Spain, she is not making him wait.

A man wants to be a "lover", not a "provider".
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Look at the relationships that you heard about where they were "friends" and then it "just happened". Do you think these guys seem alpha to you? Do you think these guys are the kinds of guys she touches herself to on lonely nights? Or are they nice guy providers? You can certainly be one of these nice guy providers and it CAN work to get into a relationship with a girl, but it's a massive time investment on your end for a tiny chance that she decides to "select" you. You'd have to orbit a lot of women for even a chance at being "selected". And once you do, the relationship dynamic will be the kind where she bosses you around, is always angry and arguing with you, the sex is lame and infrequent and she controls it, and she is secretly cheating on you with the alpha guys.

If you want a relationship with a woman, the best position to be in is the alpha who turns her on, yet is willing to be in a relationship with her. It is difficult to pull that off in a functioning relationship though, because if you are the alpha, she will do anything she can to ensure she retains you and locks you down 100%, even if you've already given her a commitment. Your word won't be enough. She will be in constant fear and anxiety that you're going to leave or you're out there banging other women. This is where the manipulation starts. She may try to isolate you from friends, get you to marry her, demand you block exes on social media, trash talk your female friends, get you to gain weight and get out of shape, move in with you or have you move in with her, etc. Ironically, this kind of fear and anxiety make her extremely hot and turned on and sexual.

In the first scenario, she's arguing/manipulating because she's frustrated that you aren't alpha, can't provide the masculine polarity she craves, and can't turn her on the way she wants to be (though she doesn't consciously understand that this is the source of her frustration and anger - she just knows the emotions she is experiencing without the underlying reason and so if she is frustrated with you, whatever it is must be your fault). In the second scenario she's arguing with you because she is fearful and anxious that you'll leave her or cheat on her and so her motivation is to try to lock you down and ensure she has no competition. Both scenarios aren't that enjoyable but if I had to choose one I'd just the second, or simply just have short term flings.
 
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BackInTheGame78

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It’s funny because I believe that too. The difference is one has to prove it which is why I’ve begun to suspect a beta or supplicating element is needed.

If I truly have to improve my social skills, it will only be to appease women I am doing it. It won’t come because I genuinely want to. So you see in my case I have a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation
Then you are simply placing a very low ceiling on your potential. Social interactions are a key element of any sort of human interaction, and especially important with women. It would be like saying you are going on a cross country trip but are walking because you don't want to drive a car. It can be done but driving is a pretty basic skill that is a necessity.
 

Epimanes

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Intimacy isn't really sex imho... ... I feel the word is missing used....to me its truth, honesty, touch, warmth, care... openness... and deep communication. Bascily anything that bonds you and brings you closer to ther person emotionally.... if you don't have emotions for the person... then sex is not intimacy.. its just physical release.

So may people here are hyper focused on getting their dycks wet... and think that's intimacy...
 

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SargeMaximus

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Then you are simply placing a very low ceiling on your potential. Social interactions are a key element of any sort of human interaction, and especially important with women. It would be like saying you are going on a cross country trip but are walking because you don't want to drive a car. It can be done but driving is a pretty basic skill that is a necessity.
I’m not disputing that fact, I’m simply telling you facts about me.

I don’t enjoy socializing because I have to be something I’m not (social, not boring, “fun”). If I could be accepted and “attractive” for talking about things I enjoy (like the stock market, philosophy, meta ideas about psychology and most people being ignorant worker bees, etc) then I would enjoy socializing.

But it does currently seem that I have to be something I cannot stand, in order to succeed. Yet it won’t succeed because if I fake it, people, especially women, can tell. So I do not know the solution.

I’m open to ideas because like you said, being social is very important, but I don’t believe that sacrificing myself and who I am just to fit in is a very good path to take.
 

BackInTheGame78

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I’m not disputing that fact, I’m simply telling you facts about me.

I don’t enjoy socializing because I have to be something I’m not (social, not boring, “fun”). If I could be accepted and “attractive” for talking about things I enjoy (like the stock market, philosophy, meta ideas about psychology and most people being ignorant worker bees, etc) then I would enjoy socializing.

But it does currently seem that I have to be something I cannot stand, in order to succeed. Yet it won’t succeed because if I fake it, people, especially women, can tell. So I do not know the solution.

I’m open to ideas because like you said, being social is very important, but I don’t believe that sacrificing myself and who I am just to fit in is a very good path to take.
If you don't want to be like that then it literally is as easy as not being like that. But it will take a lot of work to rewire your brain from a lifetime of being like that. The first thing you need to believe is that you don't have to be like you are right now, and that's usually the hardest step to take.
 

SargeMaximus

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If you don't want to be like that then it literally is as easy as not being like that. But it will take a lot of work to rewire your brain from a lifetime of being like that. The first thing you need to believe is that you don't have to be like you are right now, and that's usually the hardest step to take.
Ok but I tried to be the social guy. I’ve said this countless times on here. Being social gets me treated like sh!t. At least when I’m how I normally am I can keep up boundaries.

I mean the very fact of me trying to be social is a betrayal of my nature which is to be a lone Wolf. So from the get go Im starting from a place of self-betrayal.

It’s not as simple as you say otherwise when I was reading “how to win friends and Influence people” and regularly approaching and socializing with my gym trainer and etc I would have seen progress but I did not.

You talk like I haven’t tried it your way, like I haven’t put years of dedication into the very thing yo are suggesting. But I have, and it got me to a bad place in my life. It’s not a trivial thing to become social but be fake (because you aren’t naturally social) and so every interaction you have with people is undermined by that fact. People pick up on it like you wouldn’t believe and they attack you in various ways.

So what I’d like is to find a way to be authentic and still be social so that I don’t get torn apart again
 

Sebastian0001

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Intimacy isn't really sex imho... ... I feel the word is missing used....to me its truth, honesty, touch, warmth, care... openness... and deep communication. Bascily anything that bonds you and brings you closer to ther person emotionally.... if you don't have emotions for the person... then sex is not intimacy.. its just physical release.

So may people here are hyper focused on getting their dycks wet... and think that's intimacy...
yea but all of that can come from a friendship too: truth, honesty, warmth, care, openness. The point of this thread is that if the interaction with the woman doesn't turn sexual by some point, it may perhaps never turn sexual. And that is the friend zone.
 

BackInTheGame78

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Ok but I tried to be the social guy. I’ve said this countless times on here. Being social gets me treated like sh!t. At least when I’m how I normally am I can keep up boundaries.

I mean the very fact of me trying to be social is a betrayal of my nature which is to be a lone Wolf. So from the get go Im starting from a place of self-betrayal.

It’s not as simple as you say otherwise when I was reading “how to win friends and Influence people” and regularly approaching and socializing with my gym trainer and etc I would have seen progress but I did not.

You talk like I haven’t tried it your way, like I haven’t put years of dedication into the very thing yo are suggesting. But I have, and it got me to a bad place in my life. It’s not a trivial thing to become social but be fake (because you aren’t naturally social) and so every interaction you have with people is undermined by that fact. People pick up on it like you wouldn’t believe and they attack you in various ways.

So what I’d like is to find a way to be authentic and still be social so that I don’t get torn apart again
Then you just haven't done it well and learned how to do it well enough, or are trying things that don't work. Thomas Edison tried to make a light bulb 10,000 time before he succeeded. When he was asked about failing 10,000 times he said I didn't fail, I just tried 10,000 times that didn't work.

The problem with most people in these situations is they are unwilling to accept it will take a lot of failures before they see success.

The most dangerous phrase you can utter is "I already know that" because it means you are closed off to learning. If you already know something but aren't succeeding at it, then you simply don't know it well enough.
 
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