Friendly reminder we have no free will so relax, Sam Harris

[Epicenter]

I am procrastinating right now. It is hard to motivate if their is no good reason but what is a good reason anyway? Well if you want something in theory but your body says no you start thinking what is going on with my meat machine also known as my body? Mostly we start generating some theories but in the end it is a "I don't know". Some ancient program is doing it's work through my existence. So basically there is no real reason to do anything. That might be a bit relaxing and what you might need in the moment or not. Anyway it feels sometimes good to remind yourself that you are just a biological machine working it's algorithms.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Procrastination = brain trying to ensure status quo doesn't change. Your brain wants you to remain exactly as you are. It's a known quantity.

So you need to make a conscious decision if you want to accept that or not. If not then do something about it.

At the end of the day you can have excuses or results but never both.

Sounds like you want to be on the excuse side.

 

[TheProspect]

But as long as someone can change his mind, it’s false.

The influences that ultimately cause one to change one’s mind are largely mysterious for any particular decision, as the degree of influence is indeterminable or immeasurable and humans have a tendency to backwards rationalize their decisions or behaviour.

These mysterious influences include environmental factors, your genetics, your conditioning, etc. All of which, are out of your control — you are not always in control of your environmental factors, you did not choose your parents & therefore your genetics, and your reaction to your conditioning is largely based on your genetics (and vice versa is also true).

Don’t confuse free will with voluntary action.

Sam Harris’s argument against free will isn’t that we lack voluntary action or that there is no point in doing anything if we lack free will, it’s more so that the invisible forces that influence what we ultimately do or don’t do & shape our personalities are outside of our freedom to choose and therefore we are not free agents, but rather products of cause & effect.

Sam also points out how thoughts just spontaneously appear and that we can’t think thoughts before we think them, and therefore we cannot be the authors of those spontaneous thoughts, making the case we don’t necessarily have the freedom to choose our thoughts and thus our behaviours/actions.

Now although I find Sam’s overall argument against free will compelling and true, I do not live my life as if free does not exist. I don’t think it’s practical to do so anyway.

 

[TheProspect]

Now although I find Sam’s overall argument against free will compelling and true, I do not live my life as if free does not exist. I don’t think it’s practical to do so anyway.

Actually, there is a practical application:

Assuming free will does not exist, it’s easier to forgive people’s transgressions as well as our own shortcomings. If you understand that someone else (or yourself), is just the product of their genetics and conditioning, it’s easier to empathize with them and not condemn them or yourself for any shortcomings. The absence of free will doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions, but rather it can be used as a pathway to compassion and less judgement so you don’t have to hold onto any resentment.

Anyways, Sam Harris’s argument against free will is vert intricate and cannot be accurately conveyed in one paragraph, as there’s a lot of ground he covers in anticipation of objections.

 

[Epicenter]

It’s been my experience in life and observation that the more complex an idea is, the more likely the are falsehoods. Nothing in life is complex.

I read the thesis by Carl Sagan on how the universe was created without impetus. He took one hell of a long, complex, convoluted path to have an argument against the idea that there was no impetus. He was trying to counter the idea of a supreme being. That was a lot of thinking just for an argument. Thus it was bull****. Keep in mind that I do not have a religious affiliation with any belief religion. I’m agnostic. But I can smell bull**** in it.

The more complex the idea, the less the tenants are truth.

But that’s my experience. Yours may be different.

The more complex a theory is the more it shows how stupid we are. You can not make high level math simple or rocket science simple.

I kind of agreed with the 1000 computer in brain theory. We have thousands of subbrains. They are all directly or indirectly in communication with each other much like with real computers. A bunch of transistors are like neurons they are a small computer.

Free will does not exist. On a higher level 'you' do not exist. You are the result of neural networks following the rules of physics.

Procrastination is a mini crisis that shows that you are actually not existent. There are subsystems in the body that are in competition with each other for ressources. The amygdala wants monkey stuff the frontal lobe expects more high level skill learning like a programming language. The neural networks create the simulation of identity like a software simulating "reality".

At minute 42 is the 1000 brains theory.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

The influences that ultimately cause one to change one’s mind are largely mysterious for any particular decision, as the degree of influence is indeterminable or immeasurable and humans have a tendency to backwards rationalize their decisions or behaviour.

These mysterious influences include environmental factors, your genetics, your conditioning, etc. All of which, are out of your control — you are not always in control of your environmental factors, you did not choose your parents & therefore your genetics, and your reaction to your conditioning is largely based on your genetics (and vice versa is also true).

Don’t confuse free will with voluntary action.

Sam Harris’s argument against free will isn’t that we lack voluntary action or that there is no point in doing anything if we lack free will, it’s more so that the invisible forces that influence what we ultimately do or don’t do & shape our personalities are outside of our freedom to choose and therefore we are not free agents, but rather products of cause & effect.

Sam also points out how thoughts just spontaneously appear and that we can’t think thoughts before we think them, and therefore we cannot be the authors of those spontaneous thoughts, making the case we don’t necessarily have the freedom to choose our thoughts and thus our behaviours/actions.

Now although I find Sam’s overall argument against free will compelling and true, I do not live my life as if free does not exist. I don’t think it’s practical to do so anyway.

They aren't mysterious at all. You are programmed by your prior experiences and act almost unconsciously based on them many times.

So if you want to change that you first have to realize how your past self is causing your present self to act and actively work on changing your belief system to act a different way. Over time you can create a new belief system. It won't be easy. Your brain is wired to maintain status quo and will force you to have doubts and do everything in it's power to sabotage you to not make changes to your life so it can stay comfortable and inside it's comfort zone.

It's up to you if you want to push past that or not. Like anything in life of you want to make changes to your life you can do it. Nothing that's ever worth doing will come easy. If it was then everyone would do it.

 

[Epicenter]

Or we are just a composite being and the brain is an organ that sends electrical impulses. It is my position. It’s not a debate.

My brain can’t see a mental picture of a tree that I just created in my mind. It doesn’t have eyes and I am looking at the tree. One that I created out of thin air. Carry on.

Your brain is your mind

 

[Epicenter]

They aren't mysterious at all. You are programmed by your prior experiences and act almost unconsciously based on them many times.

So if you want to change that you first have to realize how your past self is causing your present self to act and actively work on changing your belief system to act a different way. Over time you can create a new belief system. It won't be easy. Your brain is wired to maintain status quo and will force you to have doubts and do everything in it's power to sabotage you to not make changes to your life so it can stay comfortable and inside it's comfort zone.

It's up to you if you want to push past that or not. Like anything in life of you want to make changes to your life you can do it. Nothing that's ever worth doing will come easy. If it was then everyone would do it.

There is no "you". There is only a "it" that we do not know much about . That "it" will push when the laws of physics causes it to push.

There is always the question of nature vs nurture. Actually when you look deeper it is just nature. The DNA in your body is not yours. So basically nothing in you is your's. You are just part of nature better you are nature. Atoms interacting with each other. That is it basically. So you are not even a "it".

Some things just happen like this:

 

[BackInTheGame78]

There is no "you". There is only a "it" that we do not know much about . That "it" will push when the laws of physics causes it to push.

There is always the question of nature vs nurture. Actually when you look deeper it is just nature. The DNA in your body is not yours. So basically nothing in you is your's. You are just part of nature better you are nature. Atoms interacting with each other. That is it basically. So you are not even a "it".

Some things just happen like this:

If you want to make excuses for your life then that's your call. Sounds like you are taking the easy way out.

 

[Epicenter]

If you want to make excuses for your life then that's your call. Sounds like you are taking the easy way out.

Good excuses are very hard to make. You have to convince yourself. That is really hard.

Specially if you do not exist.

 

[Epicenter]

If you want to make excuses for your life then that's your call. Sounds like you are taking the easy way out.

Let's say your dream is to do a killing spree. But you always procrastinate. Is it ok to procrastinate or be a "real man" and go for your dream?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Let's say your dream is to do a killing spree. But you always procrastinate. Is it ok to procrastinate or be a "real man" and go for your dream?

If that's your dream you probably should start with yourself and save the rest of the world the headache.

 

[Epicenter]

Please submit a reproducible experiment that clearly demonstrates this.
That experiences are “subconsciously” stored can be observed, thus it is true. But something else can intercept and changes the outcome when influenced.
Don’t follow an idea so blindly. It eases your mind and responsibility but it does nothing for you.

Nobody has addressed the phenomenon of me creating a tree in my mind or visualizing something I want to create or build.

“Who is looking at those mental creations?” A brain has no eyes and by your very assumption can’t function outside of subconscious outputs.

How can this be? I’m sure that degenerate has an answer for that?

Your eyes are part of the brain but that does not matter.

The signals from your eyes are made into mental pictures. These pictures are getting stored. They can be recreated and manipulated. That is obviously not done by magic. It is done by some bunch of neurons. Just watch the vid by the scientist.

 

[Epicenter]

If that's your dream you probably should start with yourself and save the rest of the world the headache.

So you would take the easy path and make excuses....

 

[Epicenter]

Hahahaha

Science is counter intuitive that is why Flat Earther and many others have problems with it.

They work rather with magic.

 

[Epicenter]

Oh for crying out loud. Hahaha

Time for me to push the ignore button. Too easily molded.

Have fun with your anti science magic. I guess it is much more fun.

 

[TheProspect]

They aren't mysterious at all. You are programmed by your prior experiences and act almost unconsciously based on them many times.

Mysterious in the sense that the factors & root causes of all of our thoughts and behaviour are not always easily identifiable (if at all). We actually agree — I mentioned these factors include conditioning and you used the term programming, same idea.

So if you want to change that you first have to realize how your past self is causing your present self to act and actively work on changing your belief system to act a different way. Over time you can create a new belief system. It won't be easy. Your brain is wired to maintain status quo and will force you to have doubts and do everything in it's power to sabotage you to not make changes to your life so it can stay comfortable and inside it's comfort zone.
So if you want to change that you first have to realize how your past self is causing your present self to act and actively work on changing your belief system to act a different way. Over time you can create a new belief system. It won't be easy. Your brain is wired to maintain status quo and will force you to have doubts and do everything in it's power to sabotage you to not make changes to your life so it can stay comfortable and inside it's comfort zone.

It's up to you if you want to push past that or not. Like anything in life of you want to make changes to your life you can do it. Nothing that's ever worth doing will come easy. If it was then everyone would do it.

You’re confusing the argument of the existence of free will with an argument of taking responsibility for your life through voluntary action.

Free will is not the same as voluntary action.

The argument against free will essentially means that our voluntary actions are predetermined. The decisions you ultimately take are the culmination of an endless chain of cause & effect.

If free will does not exist, whether someone is ultimately able to “push past” their genetics & conditioning or not is fundamentally already predetermined by these mysterious influences.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Mysterious in the sense that the factors & root causes of all of our thoughts and behaviour are not always easily identifiable (if at all). We actually agree — I mentioned these factors include conditioning and you used the term programming, same idea.




You’re confusing the argument of the existence of free will with an argument of taking responsibility for your life through voluntary action.

Free will is not the same as voluntary action.

The argument against free will essentially means that our voluntary actions are predetermined. The decisions you ultimately take are the culmination of an endless chain of cause & effect.

If free will does not exist, whether someone is ultimately able to “push past” their genetics & conditioning or not is fundamentally already predetermined by these mysterious influences.

I mean anyone can say that and how could you prove otherwise? Because they could always retort that it was predetermined you would do that.

Sounds like a pretty unwinnable argument

 

[Epicenter]

Mysterious in the sense that the factors & root causes of all of our thoughts and behaviour are not always easily identifiable (if at all). We actually agree — I mentioned these factors include conditioning and you used the term programming, same idea.




You’re confusing the argument of the existence of free will with an argument of taking responsibility for your life through voluntary action.

Free will is not the same as voluntary action.

The argument against free will essentially means that our voluntary actions are predetermined. The decisions you ultimately take are the culmination of an endless chain of cause & effect.

If free will does not exist, whether someone is ultimately able to “push past” their genetics & conditioning or not is fundamentally already predetermined by these mysterious influences.

Agreed. Why do you think love these science deniers their magical concepts? Is it narcissism in hope to be somethings special and better than other animals. Seems like the same guys who love conspiracy theories like the team flat earth.

 

[BriBri]

There is no "you". There is only a "it" that we do not know much about . That "it" will push when the laws of physics causes it to push.

There is always the question of nature vs nurture. Actually when you look deeper it is just nature. The DNA in your body is not yours. So basically nothing in you is your's. You are just part of nature better you are nature. Atoms interacting with each other. That is it basically. So you are not even a "it".

This is sounding very 'Matrix-y'. Reminds me of this quote:
Young Monk: “Do not try and bend the spoon—that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.”
Neo: “What truth?”
Young Monk: “There is no spoon.”