Marriage Ultimatums from Women

[Joseph Defranza]

I recently saw a clip from a show/movie where a girl broke up with a man during dinner because she realized he had no intention of proposing. He was confused as to what her issue was with this proposal-anxiety, and she replied something along the lines of "I'm a 28-year-old girl, this is what we do." Yeah, I get it, she's in the epiphany phase so she's craving the ring. There have been hordes of clips from the Steve Harvey/ Dr. Phil show where men are put on the spot for not proposing and horrible advice is given to women to give their man an ultimatum like "I need a proposal soon or I'll leave." I know if I ever get a real ultimatum, I'm ending the relationship. But in the context of just simply talking about the topic, I don't think I can change their minds.

To be clear, I have absolutely zero intention of ever proposing for the usual financial, legal, and child-custody reasons you hear from this space. But after seeing that clip I thought "is this the kind of sh*t I have to look forward to from literally every single woman I date forever? Constant questions about marriage until they realize I'll never propose in which case they'll eventually leave?" All women grow up just EXPECTING that the end-goal of a relationship is marriage, and I don't know how to get past that deep kind of programming.

Men, how do you handle this marriage topic with women?
I'm never getting married but I genuinely don't know the best way to handle this "when are we getting married" stuff. As of right now, I'm leaning toward just telling them "we don't need to get married, why involve the state in our life?" I thought about telling them the damning marriage stats about men and divorce, but I doubt it would resonate with them. So yeah I'm not sure the best course of action here. Appreciate the feedback fellas.

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

This conversation is not one that is had often, because it often leads to the end of the relationship.

Marriage is a bad move for a man; you are already in an extremely unfavorable situation just through having kids with a woman as a man, she knows this, so of course all the stops will be pulled, oh our kids will be bastards, oh all my friends are married...

The truth is, you can't have this conversation because in order to seriously have it, it would first have to make sense for both parties and it just doesn't.

 

[Joseph Defranza]

This conversation is not one that is had often, because it often leads to the end of the relationship.

Marriage is a bad move for a man; you are already in an extremely unfavorable situation just through having kids with a woman as a man, she knows this, so of course all the stops will be pulled, oh our kids will be bastards, oh all my friends are married...

The truth is, you can't have this conversation because in order to seriously have it, it would first have to make sense for both parties and it just doesn't.

Assuming that she does bring up the topic though, how should I reply?

 

[Black Widow Void]

Ordinarily, my lifetime of bachelorhood can provide some new food for thought, but not on this one. From my experience, logic has never seemed to work.

I've had nine (that I can think of) women use their subtle passive/aggressive ways to introduce marriage into the conversation.

My response: "If I'm with you and it's without a legal piece of paper, then you know it's because I love you. If we were married, you'd never be 100% certain that I'm only with you to avoid divorce ramifications. Wouldn't you rather be with someone that is voluntarily with you because they love you?"

It doesn't matter how logical the above is (and I've expressed this with sincerity) . If they are more interested in filling a position, then it's not really about you. It's about their selfish fulfillment needs. Would you want to be stuck with someone like this for the rest of your life? I wouldn't.

If two people are wanting to bring children into the world, my opinion about marriage is totally different.

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Assuming that she does bring up the topic though, how should I reply?

She shouldn't bring it up because you've had enough foresight to set this boundary with her before your relationship began.

 

[BadBoy89]

If two people are wanting to bring children into the world, my opinion about marriage is totally different.

What’s the difference?

 

[Black Widow Void]

What’s the difference?

In this day and age, probably not much. With the "baby daddy" thing going on so much these days, my views are probably considered outdated. However, statistics have proven that a child (usually) has a better outcome if both parents are together and play an active role. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but these are exceptions.

 

[Larry Lurex]

28 is a very dangerous age for a woman who is in a relationship with no sign of commitment for marriage from the boyfriend.

They figure if they were to get hitched by 30, now is the time dump the bf, get a new guy within a couple of years and hopefully walk down the aisle by her deadline.

These women will most likely do hardest **** tests, yet they are also mostly likely to do the proposing, or at least try to speed the relationship as quickly as possible.

The worst sub-type are the 28 year olds who have been dumped after a very long-term relationship.

This is also a time where they don’t really know what they want, as they obsession lies in their desire to get married.

On the other hand, there’s another type of 28 year olds – they’re getting married for sure, and wants to taste side ducks before settling down.

 

[SW15]

BEWARE the classic gun-to-the-head marriage pressure administered by your typical non-descript, rudderless late 20’s/early 30’s woman.
When a woman pressures you mercilessly to marry her, bullying to the point of threatening a break up – this is the **** test of ALL **** tests. Treat it as such – If you fail this **** test, you are RUINED. FOR. LIFE.

One of my male friends received a marriage ultimatum shiit test from an early 30s, once divorced woman at the wedding reception of one of our common male friends. My ultimatum receiving friend is now married to her. Not good.

My response: "If I'm with you and it's without a legal piece of paper, then you know it's because I love you. If we were married, you'd never be 100% certain that I'm only with you to avoid divorce ramifications. Wouldn't you rather be with someone that is voluntarily with you because they love you?"

That is a great response.

If two people are wanting to bring children into the world, my opinion about marriage is totally different.

I've seen men get married because of his desire and his girlfriend's desire to have children together.

28 is a very dangerous age for a woman who is in a relationship with no sign of commitment for marriage from the boyfriend.

They figure if they were to get hitched by 30, now is the time dump the bf, get a new guy within a couple of years and hopefully walk down the aisle by her deadline.

These women will most likely do hardest **** tests, yet they are also mostly likely to do the proposing, or at least try to speed the relationship as quickly as possible.

The worst sub-type are the 28 year olds who have been dumped after a very long-term relationship.

This is also a time where they don’t really know what they want, as they obsession lies in their desire to get married.

On the other hand, there’s another type of 28 year olds – they’re getting married for sure, and wants to taste side ducks before settling down.

Rollo Tomassi calls ages 27-33 the "Epiphany Phase". You're right about this behavior.

 

[SW15]

Ouch man. That sucks. But what can you do? I mentioned this 27yr old kid i work with failed the same test. Pressured for the 5k ring. Gonna be a bumpy road

I didn't say or do anything. The astounding thing in this case was that the guy was good at getting one night stands and casual sex prior to the relationship in which the ultimatum occurred and he caved. The woman who gave the ultimatum is physically attractive but was 32 at the time of ultimatum, so she was at the tail end of her peak or post peak. I always felt my friend needed to walk away from that relationship after 1-2 years, which would have been prior to the ultimatum. A physically attractive woman with nothing else going for her is at best a 1-2 year relationship with no ring.

 

[RangerMIke]

I never get this far... I lose women when I won't commit to an exclusive relationship. Typically this happens at 3 months.

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

The sad part is for us westerners is that you can co habitate without getting messy with the government. In most states. Smh

Co-habitation just isn't an issue here, I can have a woman in my house, she'll claim im beating her and regardless, I will be taken away and while I'm away this woman will be in my house.

Co-habitation in Canada is just no.

 

[Joseph Defranza]

Ordinarily, my lifetime of bachelorhood can provide some new food for thought, but not on this one. From my experience, logic has never seemed to work.

I've had nine (that I can think of) women use their subtle passive/aggressive ways to introduce marriage into the conversation.

My response: "If I'm with you and it's without a legal piece of paper, then you know it's because I love you. If we were married, you'd never be 100% certain that I'm only with you to avoid divorce ramifications. Wouldn't you rather be with someone that is voluntarily with you because they love you?"

It doesn't matter how logical the above is (and I've expressed this with sincerity) . If they are more interested in filling a position, then it's not really about you. It's about their selfish fulfillment needs. Would you want to be stuck with someone like this for the rest of your life? I wouldn't.

If two people are wanting to bring children into the world, my opinion about marriage is totally different.

I like that response a lot. Makes you think how many marriages are held together purely because "it's cheaper to keep her", or there's a scarcity mindset.
I also agree that her relentlessness to get married is about selfish needs. Everything a girl wants, we can give without marriage (children, 2-parent household, love, security, etc.). So, if that all can be achieved without marriage, why would I sign a contract that legally binds my assets and finances to you given the current marriage climate?

 

[oldmanofthesea]

"is this the kind of sh*t I have to look forward to from literally every single woman I date forever? Constant questions about marriage until they realize I'll never propose in which case they'll eventually leave?"

The short answer is, yes, if the relationship makes it that far. The sooner the ultimatum or even the discussion about it, the bigger the red flag. The last girl I dated kept asking me to get married. When I'd dodge the question she kept trying to threaten me by saying, "Well... just so you know...... I asked my last LTR BF if he wanted to get married and he said he wasn't ready then a few years later he proposed to me and I turned him down because he missed his opportunity.... so just know that my offer has an expiration." My response was, "Gotcha."

There are some women who don't want to get married, and they tend to not be conservative women (which is funny because I know most red-pill guys think conservative women are always the ideal - well, when it comes to marriage.... you can expect that demand from them). There are also some women, such as my crazy ex wife, who said she didn't see the point in marriage and didn't want kids and then later changed her mind 3 years later and gave me an ultimatum.

I do have a buddy who's GF gave him an ultimatum after maybe 2-3 years of dating and living together. She wanted kids (so did he) and she just felt he wasn't moving things forward. So she gave him the ultimatum and actually forwarded him the break-up e-mail she sent to her previous boyfriend in which she explained his lack of initiative on moving things forward toward marriage was the cause of her leaving him, and then threatened my friend that he too would suffer the same fate. OOOOF. They are married now and trying to have kids. I can't stand her (for this and other reasons) but I will say that the two of them seem extremely happy together. He never has a bad thing to say about her and even after 5 or 6 years together she is head over heels for him.

 

[Joseph Defranza]

The short answer is, yes, if the relationship makes it that far. The sooner the ultimatum or even the discussion about it, the bigger the red flag. The last girl I dated kept asking me to get married. When I'd dodge the question she kept trying to threaten me by saying, "Well... just so you know...... I asked my last LTR BF if he wanted to get married and he said he wasn't ready then a few years later he proposed to me and I turned him down because he missed his opportunity.... so just know that my offer has an expiration." My response was, "Gotcha."

There are some women who don't want to get married, and they tend to not be conservative women (which is funny because I know most red-pill guys think conservative women are always the ideal - well, when it comes to marriage.... you can expect that demand from them). There are also some women, such as my crazy ex wife, who said she didn't see the point in marriage and didn't want kids and then later changed her mind 3 years later and gave me an ultimatum.

I do have a buddy who's GF gave him an ultimatum after maybe 2-3 years of dating and living together. She wanted kids (so did he) and she just felt he wasn't moving things forward. So she gave him the ultimatum and actually forwarded him the break-up e-mail she sent to her previous boyfriend in which she explained his lack of initiative on moving things forward toward marriage was the cause of her leaving him, and then threatened my friend that he too would suffer the same fate. OOOOF. They are married now and trying to have kids. I can't stand her (for this and other reasons) but I will say that the two of them seem extremely happy together. He never has a bad thing to say about her and even after 5 or 6 years together she is head over heels for him.

Being coerced into a marriage would be my worst nightmare.
Followup question though: do you guys think if you're high value enough, a girl will let it slide that you don't wanna get married? For example, I think Andrew Tate has a girlfriend he's been with for awhile and he said in an interview once that she knows she's not getting a ring and shes okay with it. I know its rare but still

 

[2Rocky]

It is not fair to a women in her prime childbearing years to delude her if marriage is not your end goal if she wants to have a family. You need to be upfront about that early on. That is ALPHA.

That said, the height of feminine achievement in many circles is to have a man offer that commitment in a public manner. It means a lot.

I'm looking at a non-state recognized marriage but commitment because of concerns about all the Divorce rape. Meanwhile I do have to think about the rights and privileges associated with an official marriage for married couples. Particularly taxes, and spousal rights for medical and POA.

I have put it off twice by saying "I have certain financial thresholds I want to hit before I propose. I will explain them to you if you want to know." Both times she has declined to know. FWIW she wears a ring on her left ring finger where a wedding ring would go. She bought it herself when we were Long Distance. She says it is to show me. "she's in 100%"

 

[Bigpapa]

It is not fair to a women in her prime childbearing years to delude her if marriage is not your end goal if she wants to have a family. You need to be upfront about that early on. That is ALPHA.

That said, the height of feminine achievement in many circles is to have a man offer that commitment in a public manner. It means a lot.

I'm looking at a non-state recognized marriage but commitment because of concerns about all the Divorce rape. Meanwhile I do have to think about the rights and privileges associated with an official marriage for married couples. Particularly taxes, and spousal rights for medical and POA.

I have put it off twice by saying "I have certain financial thresholds I want to hit before I propose. I will explain them to you if you want to know." Both times she has declined to know. FWIW she wears a ring on her left ring finger where a wedding ring would go. She bought it herself when we were Long Distance. She says it is to show me. "she's in 100%"

what people fail to understand is that there is nothing really that you can do about this kind of situations … sure you can leave , but the next one will hit you with the same thing , and so on

this happens because women have way more options than men . It is not fair , but this is how things are now

at the end of the day you have to put in balance going from women to women , and live a less or more disorganized life or to go all in with a woman

none of them are ideal

 

[Alvafe]

It is not fair to a women in her prime childbearing years to delude her if marriage is not your end goal if she wants to have a family. You need to be upfront about that early on. That is ALPHA.

That said, the height of feminine achievement in many circles is to have a man offer that commitment in a public manner. It means a lot.

I'm looking at a non-state recognized marriage but commitment because of concerns about all the Divorce rape. Meanwhile I do have to think about the rights and privileges associated with an official marriage for married couples. Particularly taxes, and spousal rights for medical and POA.

I have put it off twice by saying "I have certain financial thresholds I want to hit before I propose. I will explain them to you if you want to know." Both times she has declined to know. FWIW she wears a ring on her left ring finger where a wedding ring would go. She bought it herself when we were Long Distance. She says it is to show me. "she's in 100%"

yeah, no

if she want to marry and anyone will do then you are just a filler and she have no interest in you other then maybe your wallet, so if you wanna waste time and money on a lost cause its up to you, but don't delude yourself thinking about her, she already are doing it and you are not even considerated with her desires, also note, if you let her have the upper hand on the most important aspect of any LTR then you already lost, there is nothing to salvage here

what people fail to understand is that there is nothing really that you can do about this kind of situations … sure you can leave , but the next one will hit you with the same thing , and so on

this happens because women have way more options than men . It is not fair , but this is how things are now

at the end of the day you have to put in balance going from women to women , and live a less or more disorganized life or to go all in with a woman

none of them are ideal

if you wanna put the she have more options then and you should cave you are a lost cause, she want someone to fill her desire and if any will do its one more reason to not marry her, ending it will be more benefical to you, don't matter if that will happen again in the future you repeat the whole thing

you guys need to get it, is not a piece of paper, her family, her friends or social circle, if she can't put YOU in the first place better end it, if she want you she will stay with you, with paper or not paper

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Being coerced into a marriage would be my worst nightmare.
Followup question though: do you guys think if you're high value enough, a girl will let it slide that you don't wanna get married? For example, I think Andrew Tate has a girlfriend he's been with for awhile and he said in an interview once that she knows she's not getting a ring and shes okay with it. I know its rare but still

You have influence over that but not control. All you can do is be the highest value man you can. That's the part you can control. Will it make it more likely for the girl to stick with you without marriage? Yes. Will that be enough for every girl? No.

Having said that, you can also control one other thing and that is the type of girls you choose to enter LTRs with. If you do a great job of screening out certain girls early, you'll make it a tiny bit less likely for the ultimatum to happen. Avoiding needy, fearful, insecure, jealous women will help, and you should do that anyway, but it's still no guarantee at all.

 

[Bigpapa]

yeah, no

if she want to marry and anyone will do then you are just a filler and she have no interest in you other then maybe your wallet, so if you wanna waste time and money on a lost cause its up to you, but don't delude yourself thinking about her, she already are doing it and you are not even considerated with her desires, also note, if you let her have the upper hand on the most important aspect of any LTR then you already lost, there is nothing to salvage here





if you wanna put the she have more options then and you should cave you are a lost cause, she want someone to fill her desire and if any will do its one more reason to not marry her, ending it will be more benefical to you, don't matter if that will happen again in the future you repeat the whole thing

you guys need to get it, is not a piece of paper, her family, her friends or social circle, if she can't put YOU in the first place better end it, if she want you she will stay with you, with paper or not paper

i was just pin pointing that most women sooner or later will hit you with this , even those that like you a lot

the only ones who will not hit you with this , are the free spirit women mainly . the question is , do you want to have a ltr with a free spirited women ?

mainly free spirited women come with a high notch and are very independent . Quite far away from good ltr potential