I general i agree with that statement but it's also her way of confronting her profound indecision. Every piece of furniture, every house object, every kid toy in our house is here because i pulled the trigger - not because i, as she presumes, have desire to control everything but rather because she's incapable of action. This new apartment will let her to either learn how to take action or appreciate me for being the one who does.
separation after 9 years of marriage
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CAPSLOCK BANDIT
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Bro, they got your replacement lined up and groomed before their foot leaves the door, she is already doing what you fear she will... I am from a small town myself, these women move back and give themselves to the local boys they grew up with.
metalwater
Master Don Juan
Bedroom time stable or changing. I know you told us it is good or ok but is it still the same.
Early 40 for some women is hormone change time, pre-menopause, you can read all about it. Lots of marriages get trashed during that time for the woman.
Instead of telling you, she needs space she is simply implementing space.
The personality type test thing is good info, but as you know just being a man vs a woman is already a big personality difference. Your communications will essentially always be up to the woman for how it flows and she will decide based on how she is feeling. The feeling will come from her current situation, including any parts of her life that you may not be aware of.
Not much you can do except let her go. Her leaving is a hit on your self-esteem, sounds like your doing ok but at some point, it will hit you. I would suggest going through married with red pill again or if it's the first time, all the reading and actions except don't try anything to attract her specifically any longer. Your first officer is abandoning you, you need to be able to trust and count on someone.
Moving out means I no longer want you. We can wrap it in any pretty box we want, it comes down to the simple actions. Wanting means moving closer, not wanting means moving away. You're not having any fight it sounds like perhaps because she is not dependent on you.
Because you feel like you don't know what is going on, it means you ended up in the provider role. The way to stop sex with you is to move out.
sorry man, you probably did all the right things.
Early 40 for some women is hormone change time, pre-menopause, you can read all about it. Lots of marriages get trashed during that time for the woman.
Instead of telling you, she needs space she is simply implementing space.
The personality type test thing is good info, but as you know just being a man vs a woman is already a big personality difference. Your communications will essentially always be up to the woman for how it flows and she will decide based on how she is feeling. The feeling will come from her current situation, including any parts of her life that you may not be aware of.
Not much you can do except let her go. Her leaving is a hit on your self-esteem, sounds like your doing ok but at some point, it will hit you. I would suggest going through married with red pill again or if it's the first time, all the reading and actions except don't try anything to attract her specifically any longer. Your first officer is abandoning you, you need to be able to trust and count on someone.
Moving out means I no longer want you. We can wrap it in any pretty box we want, it comes down to the simple actions. Wanting means moving closer, not wanting means moving away. You're not having any fight it sounds like perhaps because she is not dependent on you.
Because you feel like you don't know what is going on, it means you ended up in the provider role. The way to stop sex with you is to move out.
sorry man, you probably did all the right things.
mrgoodstuff
Master Don Juan
Yep gotta put a stop to the madness
This definitely is a red flag to me. Choosing her community instead of being with the father of her children through good and now bad. If this were to move forward together again, i have to ask myself if i want someone like that as my, as you call it, 1st officer.
Where do i find " married with red pill"? Is it in the bible?
oldmanofthesea
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Sorry to hear you are going through this. I divorced 5 years ago after a 6 year marriage so I feel you.
In reading your posts, my first observation is that you might be giving her a pass on a lot of things based solely on your new found knowledge of MB Personality Types. While I do believe in those personality types, if you boil down men vs women (without personality types), what you are describing of her characteristics and your characteristics aren't unique to personality types - they are simply how 99% of men are and think and how 99% of women are and think. Men = logical and execution. Women = emotional and dreamers. There are various ranges on the scale of each but that's how it is at the core. The classic book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus is based exactly on this and how to try to understand each other given the differences in thought.
Her living in her dreams and emotions and making decisions based on them is no excuse for the actual decisions she is making. You can't say a woman cheated and it's ok because her personality type makes her X, Y, or Z (for example). At the end of the day, we are ALL responsible for our ACTIONS regardless of which factors in our brains led us to choose those actions. I see you taking a lot of blame here for "not understanding her" but I don't see you holding her accountable for the same exact thing.
When I read some of the things she says (like your example of saying it's beautiful outside and then her responding with a complaint), that has nothing to do with miscommunication in my opinion. That has to do with a person who is upset and frustrated, and they often don't know exactly why, but they take it out on you. From my experience and observation, once a woman paints YOU as the source of her emotional angst (fear, anger, frustration, whatever), the relationship is over and you can't come back from it. What I see time and time again in women like this, is a lack of internal self-fulfillment or recognition of what it is that they want, combined with a permanent sense of wander-lust and dreams about "what could be." These women follow all a pattern and that pattern is one of seeking out fulfillment EXTERNALLY and they always place EXTERNAL factors on their happiness or lack thereof. They get into relationships and think the relationship will be the answer to all their problems. When that doesn't fix their lack of internal fulfillment, they decide they want a pet, or a vacation, or a house, or kids, or whatever. When those things don't fix their lack of internal fulfillment, the process of devaluing you and your relationship is what comes next. Now YOU are the source of their frustration and they begin saying the types of things she has been saying to you, and after a period of time (which usually lasts longer if you have kids binding you together), their repeated thought-process of blaming you for their unhappiness becomes deeply rooted in their mind and it is VERY difficult to undo at that point. Instead they spend their time fantasizing and day-dreaming about how much better their life would be if they could get away, and see friends and start dating again, and find that perfect man that's going to be the solution to their internal problems that you weren't able to fix for them (even if they won't admit it to you that this is what they have planned).
Then they move out and move on and fade away while they seek out what they think will be the answer to their lack of fulfillment. Usually when they get a new boyfriend, it starts really strong but then the exact same cycle repeats itself and they move on to the next thing. These types of people simply aren't capable of sustained relationships due to the lack of understanding and acceptance that their unhappiness comes from within, and if they get that far, then they have to be willing and able to put forth the self-improvement work (through therapy, reading, workshops, whatever), to resolve that for themselves. That is a BIG undertaking, and as you have seen in therapy, it requires a seriously good therapist to try to ask them the right questions to get them to realize and see their own internal motivations and problems - and then they have to be WILLING to accept them too. For many people, the dream reality in their minds about the way things are is more important and powerful than reality. Reality can be a drag, after all....
If I were in your shoes, I would be taking steps immediately to detach from this relationship and assume you are looking at a future that doesn't involve her other than co-parenting. You can't fix her wanderlust (no man can) and unless the therapy sessions are so good that she has an epiphany and a break-through, the chances of her wanting to get back with you are slim to none. She has likely made her decision a long time ago but has delayed acting on it because of the kids. For her to finally get to the point where she is pulling the trigger on moving out is a very bad sign and you have to remember that her decision was made long ago so her opinion of you and the relationship has been festering worse and worse ever since. Her mind is made up and going to therapy is likely only something she is doing to try to make it appear that she still actually cares about your relationship (possibly due to guilt about breaking up the home for your children) and over time, the distance will grow and things will continue to unwind. Even her saying she still wants to work it out is likely a farce.
So again, I would detach, make myself scarce, quit communicating about anything other than logistics and children, slow up the responses, don't ask her about her life and what's going on with her friends or her new apartment, etc, and if you really want to, continue going to therapy with her and do make an effort with that just in case the therapist can make something click for her but I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope. This has been a long time coming for her and would be really hard to come back from. I really don't like giving you this message because I know how difficult it is to hear, but this is my opinion based on multiple LTRs with these kinds of women, including one marriage.
In reading your posts, my first observation is that you might be giving her a pass on a lot of things based solely on your new found knowledge of MB Personality Types. While I do believe in those personality types, if you boil down men vs women (without personality types), what you are describing of her characteristics and your characteristics aren't unique to personality types - they are simply how 99% of men are and think and how 99% of women are and think. Men = logical and execution. Women = emotional and dreamers. There are various ranges on the scale of each but that's how it is at the core. The classic book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus is based exactly on this and how to try to understand each other given the differences in thought.
Her living in her dreams and emotions and making decisions based on them is no excuse for the actual decisions she is making. You can't say a woman cheated and it's ok because her personality type makes her X, Y, or Z (for example). At the end of the day, we are ALL responsible for our ACTIONS regardless of which factors in our brains led us to choose those actions. I see you taking a lot of blame here for "not understanding her" but I don't see you holding her accountable for the same exact thing.
When I read some of the things she says (like your example of saying it's beautiful outside and then her responding with a complaint), that has nothing to do with miscommunication in my opinion. That has to do with a person who is upset and frustrated, and they often don't know exactly why, but they take it out on you. From my experience and observation, once a woman paints YOU as the source of her emotional angst (fear, anger, frustration, whatever), the relationship is over and you can't come back from it. What I see time and time again in women like this, is a lack of internal self-fulfillment or recognition of what it is that they want, combined with a permanent sense of wander-lust and dreams about "what could be." These women follow all a pattern and that pattern is one of seeking out fulfillment EXTERNALLY and they always place EXTERNAL factors on their happiness or lack thereof. They get into relationships and think the relationship will be the answer to all their problems. When that doesn't fix their lack of internal fulfillment, they decide they want a pet, or a vacation, or a house, or kids, or whatever. When those things don't fix their lack of internal fulfillment, the process of devaluing you and your relationship is what comes next. Now YOU are the source of their frustration and they begin saying the types of things she has been saying to you, and after a period of time (which usually lasts longer if you have kids binding you together), their repeated thought-process of blaming you for their unhappiness becomes deeply rooted in their mind and it is VERY difficult to undo at that point. Instead they spend their time fantasizing and day-dreaming about how much better their life would be if they could get away, and see friends and start dating again, and find that perfect man that's going to be the solution to their internal problems that you weren't able to fix for them (even if they won't admit it to you that this is what they have planned).
Then they move out and move on and fade away while they seek out what they think will be the answer to their lack of fulfillment. Usually when they get a new boyfriend, it starts really strong but then the exact same cycle repeats itself and they move on to the next thing. These types of people simply aren't capable of sustained relationships due to the lack of understanding and acceptance that their unhappiness comes from within, and if they get that far, then they have to be willing and able to put forth the self-improvement work (through therapy, reading, workshops, whatever), to resolve that for themselves. That is a BIG undertaking, and as you have seen in therapy, it requires a seriously good therapist to try to ask them the right questions to get them to realize and see their own internal motivations and problems - and then they have to be WILLING to accept them too. For many people, the dream reality in their minds about the way things are is more important and powerful than reality. Reality can be a drag, after all....
If I were in your shoes, I would be taking steps immediately to detach from this relationship and assume you are looking at a future that doesn't involve her other than co-parenting. You can't fix her wanderlust (no man can) and unless the therapy sessions are so good that she has an epiphany and a break-through, the chances of her wanting to get back with you are slim to none. She has likely made her decision a long time ago but has delayed acting on it because of the kids. For her to finally get to the point where she is pulling the trigger on moving out is a very bad sign and you have to remember that her decision was made long ago so her opinion of you and the relationship has been festering worse and worse ever since. Her mind is made up and going to therapy is likely only something she is doing to try to make it appear that she still actually cares about your relationship (possibly due to guilt about breaking up the home for your children) and over time, the distance will grow and things will continue to unwind. Even her saying she still wants to work it out is likely a farce.
So again, I would detach, make myself scarce, quit communicating about anything other than logistics and children, slow up the responses, don't ask her about her life and what's going on with her friends or her new apartment, etc, and if you really want to, continue going to therapy with her and do make an effort with that just in case the therapist can make something click for her but I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope. This has been a long time coming for her and would be really hard to come back from. I really don't like giving you this message because I know how difficult it is to hear, but this is my opinion based on multiple LTRs with these kinds of women, including one marriage.
Lots of what you say rings very true.
She always avoids pulling the trigger letting the flow of life dictate the outcome. She takes it to an absurd extremes as when arguing about something i tried to show that there are times she will have to make hard choices. I used hyperbolic example of me being in a comma and even in that scenario, were i lacked any agency, she spoke that it would be "us" making the decision somehow.
So yes, she's waiting for outside forces to dictate the flow of her life but doesn't take responsibility if the "flow" doesn't take her to places she wants to be - unwilling to accept that "letting it be" is a choice of a sort as well
I had my epiphany that let me get rid of resentment for her being who she is but she still thinks it's a journey of MY self-discovery rather than also finding-out the source of her dissatisfaction (again not me as the source but something deeper inside her). On positive side, the therapist after the 1st session left us with a heavy-duty homework that digs deep into our past and family. As i mentioned before, she has very big skeletons in her closet that she never confronted.
As for now, she's moving out on the 1st. Due to my work i get to meet lots of new people all the time and already started hanging out (not sleeping around yet). Whatever happens over next 6-12 months, my aim is to grab life by its horns, sleep around, meet new people/women. Despite our sexual compatibility, i don't believe we are compatible intellectually and so i need to see if intellectually the proverbial grass is greener on the other side.
oldmanofthesea
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I mentioned men are very logic/action based, but the one way these specific type of women are action-based is in wanting change, but unlike a man, they don't always know what actions and plan to put in place to go about seeking the change and part of the reason for this is that they don't even consciously know what they aren't satisfied with in the first place. They just experience the emotions, repeatedly, and it's a really hard time for them. I have sympathy to some degree for that. It would be difficult to live in one's emotions without realizing the actual source of the problem and just randomly firing the gun in the dark until you hopefully hit something.
My last LTR of 18 months which I just ended three months ago was like your wife and my ex wife as well in that, to use your own words, "just letting it be" and finding acceptance of certain things was not an option for her. I don't know about your wife but with my two exes who had this issue, any time they picked a fight or tried to start an argument with me or were unhappy about something, they couldn't let it go. Whatever it was they were fixated on could never be let go unless I agreed to take some form of action to satisfy them. Some examples include blocking exes on social media or agreeing to spend more time at her house than mine or abandoning my friends or whatever. I could give 1,000 examples. I always listened to her, tried to understand her, didn't counter her points, didn't argue, and when she finished I told her I heard her and understood how she feels about it, and then I explained how I felt about it, and my decision was my decision. If my decision was contrary to what she wanted, it became a burning hot coal in her stomach that could never be extinguished. It would fester in there indefinitely and it would manifest itself in her increased frustration/agitation at me for things having nothing to do with it like my dog shedding too much or my not getting the right kind of salad dressing at the store.
What you have to remember about situations like this is that you have your opinion/belief about something, and she has hers. If SHE is the one upset and bringing up the issue, then the issue is hers to own. Not yours. If you don't feel you've done anything wrong and don't need to take any action to comply with her demands, then it's on HER to own her emotions and either accept and "let it be" or rethink the relationship. Most women I've dated don't understand this, especially not the high conflict ones. I've dated a handful of great women who rarely complained so the issue about owning their emotions never came up because they actually did own their emotions. There were small things that bothered them but they would just let them go, and so would I. I now carefully screen for women who complain about others early-on in dating, and who seem to have a lot of conflicts.
You must have been spying on me during my couples counseling sessions with my now ex-wife. This was VERBATIM what she said. Despite being a slave to her uncontrollable emotions which led her to do very strange things, and despite her having many complaints about people, her job, the world, whatever, despite being constantly frustrated, she felt that she was somehow enlightened and it was very important to her that I start a journey of self discovery that would apparently turn me into the fictitious person she felt would solve all her problems. She literally said to the counselor, "I've just been doing a lot of meditating and reading and spiritual work and have been on this journey of enlightenment and OldManOfTheSea needs to start his journey too, and in that journey, he needs to do this and that and this and that..." and she kept going on and on about it and the therapist responded by saying, "I believe you that you are on a journey and are doing great work for yourself, but OldManOfTheSea's journey is his own, and when he does it and how it looks and if he even has it is completely up to him - you can't define his journey or what it looks like and entails." She responded by changing the subject.
In the case of my ex wife, by the time she left me, she had already lined up another guy but tried to play it so that it looked like she and him didn't get together for several months after she left, so be mentally prepared for that to be a possibility. It sounds like you are already doing that, and doing the right thing by starting to talk to other women and getting out there and meeting new people.
metalwater
Master Don Juan
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
thousands of guys in the same position. do all the recommended reading. also, stay connected with this forum for a sanity check and addition al viewpoints. It will get better after it gets worse...
Bokanovsky
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Don't pollute you mind with this new age psychobabble. You were communicating with each other just fine when you met, decided to get married and have kids but now all of a sudden you have forgotten how to communicate? I have to call BS on this one.
Glassguy
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OP-
I was married for 9 years. During that time there were 2 separations that lasted 6 months each. At the start of the first one, I should have went down and filed for divorce, which I ultimately did and lost out on many good years in my late 20s and early 30s. One thing we cant get back is time.
Let me explain something to you- she is using you right now in case whatever else that she has lined up doesnt work out. And if it doesnt, and she comes back, trust me when I tell you its just a matter of time before she tries this with the next guy, and the guy after that, etc. For as long as you allow it.
1.) She is moving back to her hometown for several reasons. Primarily she wants to have a support group around her....old friends, family, etc. Because she knows that she is done. You just dont see that yet. After all, this was all HER decision and doing. You dont think she hasnt tested the waters to see if she can get validation from men on social media, etc already? You fell and hit your head if you think otherwise.
2.) Want to find out where her head is at? Simple. Send her a text that says this:
"I have been thinking and the last several years have been miserable. We are both young enough to find people that we enjoy being with and be happy again. Your decisions have opened my eyes to this and we can manage the kids in an adult way. I have talked to an attorney and I will pay the money to file the divorce and we should get it done asap. When you left we separated and I've decided its just as good time as any to make this decision and start moving on with my life. I will be in touch regarding the divorce, take care."
Then do it. Fvck the counseling. You and I both know that you no longer trust her, and when that has been taken, its over.
Why are we as MEN waiting around for women to decide what is going to happen to our lives? Screw that dude. Take charge. You will NEVER trust this woman again. Go out and date and start living life. She asked for this, fvcking give it to her and dont look back.
I was married for 9 years. During that time there were 2 separations that lasted 6 months each. At the start of the first one, I should have went down and filed for divorce, which I ultimately did and lost out on many good years in my late 20s and early 30s. One thing we cant get back is time.
Let me explain something to you- she is using you right now in case whatever else that she has lined up doesnt work out. And if it doesnt, and she comes back, trust me when I tell you its just a matter of time before she tries this with the next guy, and the guy after that, etc. For as long as you allow it.
1.) She is moving back to her hometown for several reasons. Primarily she wants to have a support group around her....old friends, family, etc. Because she knows that she is done. You just dont see that yet. After all, this was all HER decision and doing. You dont think she hasnt tested the waters to see if she can get validation from men on social media, etc already? You fell and hit your head if you think otherwise.
2.) Want to find out where her head is at? Simple. Send her a text that says this:
"I have been thinking and the last several years have been miserable. We are both young enough to find people that we enjoy being with and be happy again. Your decisions have opened my eyes to this and we can manage the kids in an adult way. I have talked to an attorney and I will pay the money to file the divorce and we should get it done asap. When you left we separated and I've decided its just as good time as any to make this decision and start moving on with my life. I will be in touch regarding the divorce, take care."
Then do it. Fvck the counseling. You and I both know that you no longer trust her, and when that has been taken, its over.
Why are we as MEN waiting around for women to decide what is going to happen to our lives? Screw that dude. Take charge. You will NEVER trust this woman again. Go out and date and start living life. She asked for this, fvcking give it to her and dont look back.
CAPSLOCK BANDIT
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It's the will to communicate that falters, most of the time due to a single party becoming emotional and not always the woman.
You are absolutely correct. She's basically begging me to say "it's over" (terrified to be held responsible for anything so she can blame me later for whatever ****-ups). As i said, the only reason i keep the charade is so that we give next few weeks for kids to adjust, pretending it's gonna work out. After the kids get into the routine, i'll pull the bandaid. I need to prep a few things beforehand including a conversation with a lawyer.
And indeed you are correct, i'll never trust her again.
Glassguy
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Why pretend? Man up and end it with her.
My friend, when kids are in the picture the normal bravado doesn't work the same way.
Glassguy
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Sure it does. The kids are just an excuse.
on this one, i disagree with you.
metalwater
Master Don Juan
interesting how the father (you) is more interested in the kids than the mother. do take care of them, but do not lie to them about your situation with your soon-to-be x. the need to learn how it should be, not have an example of a normal broken home. can not show them a good example with her, because she does not want it for you or them. she wants to feel desired, by someone else.
if you're lucky you will get 100 years of life. you can not get back even one second, ever.
the proof is that if she wanted to actively work on things with you, and stay, and try in the counseling, and respect you, then you would probably invest every ounce of energy you could to make it work. SHE DOES NOT WANT IT, she wants attention from someoneELSE.
do the red pill improvement plan. it can't hurt and no matter what will help you in many ways.
if you are a good man, your kids later in life will copy what they remember you did.
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