Unrequited Love?

[EyeOnThePrize]

I had my ex over last night.

TLDR: we had sex and i felt great for an hour or two after she left but then i felt weird and violated or something and i'm not sure where that feeling is coming from. has anyone had similar and has found out why?

The relationship had ended over a year ago and it was a weird rocky end where we both felt hurt in our own ways. After the break up we both individually did our own soul searching. I struggled with pot for a bit but I've been living the monk life recently and challenging myself as best as I can to stay sober and find healthy outlets. Recently I found out that so has she.

Anyway she was reaching out every month or two with strange mixed signals talking about meeting up that I thought were breadcrumbs. she had backed out of meeting up to talk about the past even though it was her idea so I sent her a somewhat long email explaining what i thought about different events in the relationship and how i would only consider dating her if she's completely sober and meets me in the middle. i figured she could get what she was looking for in a talk out of that email. i also mentioned how i used a lot of our sex as a sort of crutch to not deal with my own issues. after a couple days she responded with an email almost as long with her own explanations and confessions. it provided a lot of clarity to the situation and showed me what i did that really hurt her that i didn't think much of. she also confessed how hard it is for her to openly communicate among other things, but it was all pretty reasonable and rational.

i responded by texting her that i was impressed by the email but felt we should talk more in person to avoid confusion. she ended up coming over within the hour and we talked about casual things before i escalated and we had sex. she was subtly reluctant but i could tell a part of her wanted it and i capitalized. i actually avoided talking about the past too much because i wanted to conquer her so i stayed present and funny. while the sex was satisfying it wasn't as satisfying as when we gave 100% of each other to the other in the best times of our relationship. she mentioned not to leave marks or finish inside her which is understandable but irked me a bit. she also mentioned how she doesn't want this to be 'a thing' and i told her that she's over thinking it. after sex we laid and talked for a bit again about casual things and i mentioned that we should do this pretty much never since it probably only feeds our sex addictions. she agreed. i said that if we do see each other we should do it outside the bedroom to help foster something more healthy, she again agreed. i saw her out as both of us had other things to get done that day.

for an hour or so i felt great and manly for having had some good sex but after a few hours i started feeling quite crappy. it's now the next morning and i'm still internalizing this feeling and trying to figure out what it means. i think it's unrequited love. i think i was expecting a sort of reciprocation of more depth from her but i sensed her hesitation to do that and so i feel a bit used or something. it's almost like i want her to jump in my arms and be 100% mine again, to commit to me completely like she once did, but i've said and done things long ago that have deeply hurt her feelings so her hesitation is absolutely understandable if she still hasn't forgiven me completely.

i know that love is built slowly so why the hell am i expecting her to jump into my arms? am i trying to avoid forgiving myself or working on myself? why am i even thinking about all this? we all read material that says thinking about relationships is feminine, yet i'm getting older and have thoughts of starting a family. am i using these thoughts of family to avoid working on myself? it's almost like i want to start a family to fill a void, but that doesn't sound like a very healthy reason to start a family. we talk about abundance and unconditional love so i should be simply enjoying her company and letting her go when she doesn't want to commit to me completely. unconditional love would mean not feeling so crappy like this, so i must have had sex with her to try and get something more from her. i don't understand why i want her complete commitment so quickly and so badly. am i identifying with her attraction towards me?

i think it boils down to that i could sense her hesitation or that she hasn't forgiven me completely. i honestly don't want to take her out on a date because i could sense that hesitation from her and it's not a good feeling. i don't want to be around a person that doesn't want to be with me or deep down is still upset with me and i'm not going to try and force things or convince her. it's like the pains of our past together haunt her and keep her from forgiving me and living in the moment. when i try to make things present and fun i can see her reflecting on past events and maybe being fearful of going through more of the same.

i'm torn between reaching out again to apologize about how i've hurt her in the past in an attempt to help her forgive me but something tells me it's not that easy. i could ask her what i can do to help her forgive me but the answer will probably be idk. she may also say that she doesn't hate me or dislike me and is simply apathetic. maybe that's it? that i can't accept that this person is now apathetic towards me?

i want to say something and at the same time want to say nothing at all. i think saying something will come from a place of trying to get her to commit, and that instead the right answer is the ballsy answer, to say and do nothing and let her go.

Maybe she's a PBPD and this is what it feels like on the receiving end? she needs me but hates me? so damn confusing. i'm going to see a shrink to get their take but figured i'd post here and see what you all think.

 

[Epic Days]

Maybe she's a PBPD and this is what it feels like on the receiving end? she needs me but hates me? so damn confusing. i'm going to see a shrink to get their take but figured i'd post here and see what you all think.

Do you always play a stupid game with a woman? So the default is she has a modern, fake disorder? Well you could always go to a therapist that’s sicker than most and get all twisted up even more and maybe get on some psychotropic drugs. Yeah that all makes sense.

Until you stop playing the feminine game, there is no solution.

 

[AJ84]

I had my ex over last night.

TLDR: we had sex and i felt great for an hour or two after she left but then i felt weird and violated or something and i'm not sure where that feeling is coming from. has anyone had similar and has found out why?

The relationship had ended over a year ago and it was a weird rocky end where we both felt hurt in our own ways. After the break up we both individually did our own soul searching. I struggled with pot for a bit but I've been living the monk life recently and challenging myself as best as I can to stay sober and find healthy outlets. Recently I found out that so has she.

Anyway she was reaching out every month or two with strange mixed signals talking about meeting up that I thought were breadcrumbs. she had backed out of meeting up to talk about the past even though it was her idea so I sent her a somewhat long email explaining what i thought about different events in the relationship and how i would only consider dating her if she's completely sober and meets me in the middle. i figured she could get what she was looking for in a talk out of that email. i also mentioned how i used a lot of our sex as a sort of crutch to not deal with my own issues. after a couple days she responded with an email almost as long with her own explanations and confessions. it provided a lot of clarity to the situation and showed me what i did that really hurt her that i didn't think much of. she also confessed how hard it is for her to openly communicate among other things, but it was all pretty reasonable and rational.

i responded by texting her that i was impressed by the email but felt we should talk more in person to avoid confusion. she ended up coming over within the hour and we talked about casual things before i escalated and we had sex. she was subtly reluctant but i could tell a part of her wanted it and i capitalized. i actually avoided talking about the past too much because i wanted to conquer her so i stayed present and funny. while the sex was satisfying it wasn't as satisfying as when we gave 100% of each other to the other in the best times of our relationship. she mentioned not to leave marks or finish inside her which is understandable but irked me a bit. she also mentioned how she doesn't want this to be 'a thing' and i told her that she's over thinking it. after sex we laid and talked for a bit again about casual things and i mentioned that we should do this pretty much never since it probably only feeds our sex addictions. she agreed. i said that if we do see each other we should do it outside the bedroom to help foster something more healthy, she again agreed. i saw her out as both of us had other things to get done that day.

for an hour or so i felt great and manly for having had some good sex but after a few hours i started feeling quite crappy. it's now the next morning and i'm still internalizing this feeling and trying to figure out what it means. i think it's unrequited love. i think i was expecting a sort of reciprocation of more depth from her but i sensed her hesitation to do that and so i feel a bit used or something. it's almost like i want her to jump in my arms and be 100% mine again, to commit to me completely like she once did, but i've said and done things long ago that have deeply hurt her feelings so her hesitation is absolutely understandable if she still hasn't forgiven me completely.

i know that love is built slowly so why the hell am i expecting her to jump into my arms? am i trying to avoid forgiving myself or working on myself? why am i even thinking about all this? we all read material that says thinking about relationships is feminine, yet i'm getting older and have thoughts of starting a family. am i using these thoughts of family to avoid working on myself? it's almost like i want to start a family to fill a void, but that doesn't sound like a very healthy reason to start a family. we talk about abundance and unconditional love so i should be simply enjoying her company and letting her go when she doesn't want to commit to me completely. unconditional love would mean not feeling so crappy like this, so i must have had sex with her to try and get something more from her. i don't understand why i want her complete commitment so quickly and so badly. am i identifying with her attraction towards me?

i think it boils down to that i could sense her hesitation or that she hasn't forgiven me completely. i honestly don't want to take her out on a date because i could sense that hesitation from her and it's not a good feeling. i don't want to be around a person that doesn't want to be with me or deep down is still upset with me and i'm not going to try and force things or convince her. it's like the pains of our past together haunt her and keep her from forgiving me and living in the moment. when i try to make things present and fun i can see her reflecting on past events and maybe being fearful of going through more of the same.

i'm torn between reaching out again to apologize about how i've hurt her in the past in an attempt to help her forgive me but something tells me it's not that easy. i could ask her what i can do to help her forgive me but the answer will probably be idk. she may also say that she doesn't hate me or dislike me and is simply apathetic. maybe that's it? that i can't accept that this person is now apathetic towards me?

i want to say something and at the same time want to say nothing at all. i think saying something will come from a place of trying to get her to commit, and that instead the right answer is the ballsy answer, to say and do nothing and let her go.

Maybe she's a PBPD and this is what it feels like on the receiving end? she needs me but hates me? so damn confusing. i'm going to see a shrink to get their take but figured i'd post here and see what you all think.

You seem to be focusing on whatever it is you did that hurt her, but you mentioned that you also felt hurt by her so I assume she did stuff that hurt you too.

You did some soul searching which seemed to help you get over it, maybe her hesitation means she has not been able to get over it herself, which would explain her sending you messages and wanting to hash things out which just keeps the wounds open imo. Like why does she want to meet to talk about the past? And you already apologized. If she wants to focus on the past it’s useless because you can’t go back and change things.

I would not apologize again, it’s in the past and unless you plan to go back that way, why allow yourself to be put in a position where you have to relive all of that? How will that help you continue on your path to self improvement? If she’s not ready or willing to let go of the past, you apologizing won’t change that and it will make make you feel guilty and bring up all sorts of feelings which can lead to self doubt, which can lead to you wanting her back , forgetting about why the relationship didn’t work out to begin with.

It feels crappy because you have feelings. I think leaving it alone and creating distance will help keep you on your path.

 

[guru1000]

Your feelings originate from YOU, not her. Start here.

You have a lack. She fulfills it. She leaves. Your lack re-appears.

You use the word “unconditional love.” That is love without conditions. Such could not exist as there will always be conditions, even if that condition is her being in your presence for you to give her that love. Such term is a human construct.

What you are looking for is “egoless love.” That is love without requirement or expectation of reciprocity. It’s Giving without expectation of getting back. Because the giving alone fills you with joy, and so taking is not even a thought.

This dynamic is not egoless love. Rather, it’s ego love—that is love where you are requiring the person to fulfill you. This is “taking” in its most fundamental form. This is why you feel lost or unfulfilled.

It is not and never was about her. It is and was always about you and this need for another to complete or fulfill you. Its roots originate from ego. You should thank her because she now brought this to your awareness.

Start here. Recognize that you are a complete and full vessel as you are. There is nothing More for you to take from another. Such intent will always lead to misery.

 

[EyeOnThePrize]

Do you always play a stupid game with a woman? So the default is she has a modern, fake disorder? Well you could always go to a therapist that’s sicker than most and get all twisted up even more and maybe get on some psychotropic drugs. Yeah that all makes sense.

Until you stop playing the feminine game, there is no solution.

Epic you don't strike me as a family man. As in you have no goals to start a family and are resigned from the idea. I've gathered this from your posts and if I'm wrong please correct me. I agree that a lot of therapists have tons of their own problems(and in some cases are more screwed up than their patients) but there's no real authority on the subject, there's no ideal man i can talk to. at least someone that has gone through formal training on how to talk about these things might shed some light. i would never take drugs to change my mental state, i don't believe that's a solution to anything as i don't believe i have a chemical imbalance. that said, you represent the side of me that's saying this is a complete waste of my time and that i should simply pursue my interests, see any desire to settle down or attach to someone as weakness, and stick to finding fulfillment in slaying dragons, even if that means dying alone. i think this is noble and manly af but a part of me sees some kind of duty to start a family. do you think that is grounded in weakness or fear or lack? it kind of feels like it.

You seem to be focusing on whatever it is you did that hurt her, but you mentioned that you also felt hurt by her so I assume she did stuff that hurt you too.

You did some soul searching which seemed to help you get over it, maybe her hesitation means she has not been able to get over it herself, which would explain her sending you messages and wanting to hash things out which just keeps the wounds open imo. Like why does she want to meet to talk about the past? And you already apologized. If she wants to focus on the past it’s useless because you can’t go back and change things.

I would not apologize again, it’s in the past and unless you plan to go back that way, why allow yourself to be put in a position where you have to relive all of that? How will that help you continue on your path to self improvement? If she’s not ready or willing to let go of the past, you apologizing won’t change that and it will make make you feel guilty and bring up all sorts of feelings which can lead to self doubt, which can lead to you wanting her back , forgetting about why the relationship didn’t work out to begin with.

It feels crappy because you have feelings. I think leaving it alone and creating distance will help keep you on your path.

i mean i do want her back. for some reason i feel the onus is on me to fight for it, even though most of what i've read has taught me to let something go if i love it. i must have developed some unhealthy attachment that i'm perpetuating. i want to ask her on a date but i have a feeling i won't enjoy it much because of some expectations i'm already putting on her that she won't meet. distance is the harder choice and probably the right one...

Your feelings originate from YOU, not her. Start here.

You have a lack. She fulfills it. She leaves. Your lack re-appears.

You use the word “unconditional love.” That is love without conditions. Such could not exist as there will always be conditions, even if that condition is her being in your presence for you to give her that love. Such term is a human construct.

What you are looking for is “egoless love.” That is love without requirement or expectation of reciprocity. It’s Giving without expectation of getting back. Because the giving alone fills you with joy, and so taking is not even a thought.

This dynamic is not egoless love. Rather, it’s ego love—that is love where you are requiring the person to fulfill you. This is “taking” in its most fundamental form. This is why you feel lost or unfulfilled.

It is not and never was about her. It is and was always about you and this need for another to complete or fulfill you. Its roots originate from ego. You should thank her because she now brought this to your awareness.

Start here. Recognize that you are a complete and full vessel as you are. There is nothing More for you to take from another. Such intent will always lead to misery.

i agree that this a great concept and i think this lack is what is pushing me to reach out to her again. i want to take her on a date and give to her(although i probably want this for selfish reasons deep down). but after reading your post i came to peculiar thought. i could be a full vessel and then meet someone(my ex) that does not identify as full. i then give myself to that person in an attempt to fulfill them but identify with the inevitable failure(since after all they have to fill themselves), and as a result begin to identify with lack and my inability to fulfill rather than understanding the limits of my ability to give. the mistake being that i attempted to fulfill her and thus created an expectation that i would succeed. maybe that's what's happened?

or maybe i've been tricking myself my entire life and have been feeling lack throughout. could you break down the last sentence to more practical terms? even as a full vessel there is an expectation of respect or that your ability to give will not be exploited and abused isn't there? it's almost as if what i say or offer to her shouldn't matter, as long as i feel it is coming from a place of egoless giving. but should a full vessel man continue giving because he is so abundant that it's no bother and actually joyous? or should he cease giving because he may be enabling the receiver to not fulfill themselves and holding back their own personal growth?

the abstract sounds good but when i try to apply it to my situation it's still confusing. maybe i'm over complicating it.

i'm going to find some books on the topic but please PM me if you have any recommended readings on the subject, i'm curious.

 

[guru1000]

@EyeOnThePrize Very deep, articulate, and well thought out.

Your states are in flux. Look at being egoless (that which gives) and ego (that which takes) as diametric states of consciousness. And where you place your focus, is what you act upon.

Emptiness follows the ego state.

Fulfillment follows the egoless state.

So when you are feeling empty or unfulfilled, you are following that which is governed by ego. Don’t get me wrong, ego wins feel great. But they are transient spikes of happiness followed by emptiness and inclination to strive to take more to get back to that previous spike of happiness. A self-fulfilling loop with no end of fulfillment.

So your question deals with what to do if you genuinely operate out of the egoless and the person doesn’t appreciate your giving, even worse undermines you for giving. Do you continue to give? and if you don’t continue to give, does this not contradict your intent of giving without expectation of reciprocity?

Seems contradictory on the surface. But there are energy wavelengths which govern attraction, that is, a meta-mechanism which attracts people of similar energy (character).

Similar wavelengths attract. Different wavelengths repel.

So you meet a girl. You have the intent to give and so you do without expectation. And she undermines your giving. You are not on the same wavelength so you feel natural aversion/repulsion. Has nothing to do with your intent absent reciprocity, but rather your energies do not and cannot align.

Different scenario: you meet a girl. You have the intent to give and so you do without expectation. And she also has the intent to give, and so she receives with the intent to give you pleasure for your giving. Here, you operate in the same wavelength, and so you feel a connection.

Connection cannot happen in different wavelengths. Wavelengths must be the same or similar.

As to your situation: you (think you) give. She undermines. You are still are attracted to her. Here, you are only contriving yourself. You are not giving. You are just as much a taker as she is. Same wavelength. Hence the attraction.

You cannot be egoless and unfulfilled. That’s an oxymoron. You are simply taking under the illusion of giving.

 

[EyeOnThePrize]

@guru1000
i think you're hitting the nail on the head. i'm definitely in flux because i feel an aversion to her for her disrespect or lack of appreciation(egoless) but then an hour later or even simultaneously feel a desire to call her to arrange a date in an attempt to get her around me again or to please her in some form apparently for my own validation(ego). i oscillate and the harder option is egoless. the biggest hurdle with the egoless path is admitting the ugly truth that i exist or have existed in the ego state and firmly believing it. Ironically to feel ashamed of that is again ego.

Even right now i'm contemplating how i didn't perform particular positions during sex that probably could have made the sex better and pleased her enough to want to come again the next day or otherwise provide more attention. i'm demeaning or undermining myself because deep down i'm unfulfilled and feel i deserve this treatment. i fell into this same trap with the ex before last. after she dumped me i let her keep coming by to hook up for almost two years and i would constantly wonder how i could convince her to stay or otherwise impress her enough. then she found someone else and i completely broke. the same scenario seems to be playing out here...

i feel the aversion but doubt it's legitimacy, so i fall back to an easier albeit weaker position of reaching out with some kind of stupid needy hope(under the guise of 'IDGAF i'll just bang you') only to have her undermine me again and reinforce the mindset to myself. but it's really me that's undermining myself and using her as a conduit.

my dilemma is this... i still find myself getting sexually worked up(over women in general). how am i to reconcile sexual desires when i'm coming from an unfulfilled state? it is the most primal desire a man can feel in my opinion and it's incredibly strong. my mind is so great at BSing to itself just so i can get my diick wet that it's dangerous and seems to only further reinforce an unhealthy psyche. i know that the ideal state is finding so much pleasure in other avenues of life that there is no time or hardly any interest in satisfying such urges but sometimes the draw seems insurmountable. maybe i'm sexualizing energy that isn't meant to be sexual.

 

[guru1000]

You are just operating out of need. That’s where the word “needy” originates. As you need her to complete a part of you which lacks. However, even by “attaining” her, that need will manifest into another type of need and eventually you will crave more and still feel unfulfilled.

When I state egoless, I don’t mean to gratify her every need and ignore yours. That would actually not gratify her by knowing she is with a man whom panders to her. That too is operating from ego, that is suppressing yourself to win her because you need her.

Nor should you be ashamed by operating out of ego. After all, Ego was there to begin with for you to operate upon it. Ego serves its purpose. Ultimately, to experience IT to understand its diametric. Knowledge is not enough. You need to experience to truly understand. If you were an alien and came to planet Earth and asked me what love was, no matter how much I tried to describe IT, would it even come close to your experiencing IT yourself?

My point is knowledge is knowledge. But experience is internalized knowledge.

And such is ego. To experience it, to understand it, and to understand it diametric, the egoless. You cannot understand egoless without understanding ego first.

Look at my avatar. You cannot understand ( or appreciate) light without experiencing darkness first.

Nothing to be ashamed of or fault yourself for. It is as it should be.

As to how to get over your neediness? It’s not simply changing your focus although that can help. You will need new experiences to reshape your internalized knowledge.

Go out there and experience, non-neediness—now that you have experienced what needy is. Meet a girl, and focus your consciousness not to need her—the diametric feelings to which you are now aware of.

Repeat.

This is the most effective way to change your inner hardwiring.

 

[EyeOnThePrize]

Meet a girl, and focus your consciousness not to need her—the diametric feelings to which you are now aware of.

if i understand correctly this sounds like the detachment that all dating literature talks about. this is trivial with any other girl, even older exes at this point, but in the case of my last ex coming back wanting to be physical it really trips me up. the needy state that ended the relationship resurfaces and i'm not sure why. it's like i fall into the old groove that ended the relationship by association.

When I state egoless, I don’t mean to gratify her every need and ignore yours. That would actually not gratify her by knowing she is with a man whom panders to her. That too is operating from ego, that is suppressing yourself to win her because you need her.

this part is what's difficult at this point. she indirectly pushes and tests how far i'll allow this like most women do, as if we're dating.

for example she came over and said she didn't want to have sex. she ducked a few friendly kisses and when i placed a friendly hand on her she kept saying no but with a grin and in a playful tone. she allowed more with each playful attempt(testing to see if i'd be butthurt apparently) until i had her naked and went for it. she was super shaved and her body was as though she just got out of the shower, so it seems she planned for the possibility despite what she said the entire time.

i don't understand why i can't simply have sex with her without falling into the old needy mindset. the idea of not having her as completely as i did before seems to deflate me internally, even though in the moment i'm making her scream my name. i get lost in my head rather than staying in the moment and simply enjoying myself like i would with any other girl. i mean technically in that moment she's all mine, as complete as i'll ever have her. i attempt to take that idea of more completeness on the illusion of giving as you said, as if she's the one to give it to me rather than me giving it to myself.

i think it's no coincidence that she came over after my email where i laid my rules for dating and stood up for myself. i'm also now suspicious of her telling me to not leave marks or finish inside her. maybe like everything else these were tests to see if i'd listen, which i did, when we would have both enjoyed it more if i didn't. it's simply another version of that playful no. her putting up a test so she can get off to me passing it or not even acknowledging it and simply taking what's mine.

i see what you mean that i'm the source of the problem here and can just as easily flip back to simply enjoying myself and giving, but i don't understand why it's so difficult, even after so much time apart and other lays. i must be living in the past rather than in the moment. still falling back on that unfulfilled mindset out of some fear. i should treat every encounter as a new one and be playful, but this 'i can probably figure this out' mindset is the illusion of giving that leads to the anxious pandering or less than satisfying sex. the solution is a simple disassociation from the past and YOLO mentality in the present.

your answer makes sense though... go out and meet other girls. it'll provide abundance and help reinforce the giving mindset. i appreciate the concept of the ego spectrum, it's useful.

if we ever do have sex again i think i'll play some teasing games to help bolster the proper state of mind, that the completeness i'm looking for comes from me, not her.

 

[user43770]

You are just operating out of need. That’s where the word “needy” originates. As you need her to complete a part of you which lacks. However, even by “attaining” her, that need will manifest into another type of need and eventually you will crave more and still feel unfulfilled.

When I state egoless, I don’t mean to gratify her every need and ignore yours. That would actually not gratify her by knowing she is with a man whom panders to her. That too is operating from ego, that is suppressing yourself to win her because you need her.

Nor should you be ashamed by operating out of ego. After all, Ego was there to begin with for you to operate upon it. Ego serves its purpose. Ultimately, to experience IT to understand its diametric. Knowledge is not enough. You need to experience to truly understand. If you were an alien and came to planet Earth and asked me what love was, no matter how much I tried to describe IT, would it even come close to your experiencing IT yourself?

My point is knowledge is knowledge. But experience is internalized knowledge.

And such is ego. To experience it, to understand it, and to understand it diametric, the egoless. You cannot understand egoless without understanding ego first.

Look at my avatar. You cannot understand ( or appreciate) light without experiencing darkness first.

Nothing to be ashamed of or fault yourself for. It is as it should be.

As to how to get over your neediness? It’s not simply changing your focus although that can help. You will need new experiences to reshape your internalized knowledge.

Go out there and experience, non-neediness—now that you have experienced what needy is. Meet a girl, and focus your consciousness not to need her—the diametric feelings to which you are now aware of.

Repeat.

This is the most effective way to change your inner hardwiring.

Could anyone else put so many words on paper, so beautifully, and not actually say anything of substance?

 

[EyeOnThePrize]

Could anyone else put so many words on paper, so beautifully, and not actually say anything of substance?

There is ignorance, and below that there is outspoken ignorance. Maybe one of these days you'll realize how foolish you're making yourself look.

Guru gave me a conceptual understanding of ego that helped bust me out of a mental rut. If you have absolutely no constructive input you should stay silent, for your own reputation's sake.

 

[user43770]

You are just operating out of need. That’s where the word “needy” originates. As you need her to complete a part of you which lacks. However, even by “attaining” her, that need will manifest into another type of need and eventually you will crave more and still feel unfulfilled.

This is akin to eating and being full.

When I state egoless, I don’t mean to gratify her every need and ignore yours. That would actually not gratify her by knowing she is with a man whom panders to her. That too is operating from ego, that is suppressing yourself to win her because you need her.

Every thought that we have originates from ego, grasshopper.

Nor should you be ashamed by operating out of ego. After all, Ego was there to begin with for you to operate upon it. Ego serves its purpose. Ultimately, to experience IT to understand its diametric. Knowledge is not enough. You need to experience to truly understand. If you were an alien and came to planet Earth and asked me what love was, no matter how much I tried to describe IT, would it even come close to your experiencing IT yourself?

You couldn't describe love because it's a social construct, made for man.

My point is knowledge is knowledge. But experience is internalized knowledge.

And such is ego. To experience it, to understand it, and to understand it diametric, the egoless. You cannot understand egoless without understanding ego first.

Look at my avatar. You cannot understand ( or appreciate) light without experiencing darkness first.

Nothing to be ashamed of or fault yourself for. It is as it should be.

As to how to get over your neediness? It’s not simply changing your focus although that can help. You will need new experiences to reshape your internalized knowledge.

Go out there and experience, non-neediness—now that you have experienced what needy is. Meet a girl, and focus your consciousness not to need her—the diametric feelings to which you are now aware of.

Repeat.

This is the most effective way to change your inner hardwiring.

I'm tired of your gay ego talk. I just typed a sentence, that was ego.

 

[user43770]

There is ignorance, and below that there is outspoken ignorance. Maybe one of these days you'll realize how foolish you're making yourself look.

Guru gave me a conceptual understanding of ego that helped bust me out of a mental rut. If you have absolutely no constructive input you should stay silent, for your own reputation's sake.

I'm outspoken, that's for sure. You think I'm ignorant?

You think I'm worried about a reputation? Lol

Guru told you some sh1t he read in a book about the tau. Glad it resonated with you

 

[user43770]

When seeking work for the sake of the pay, almost all men are alike at present in civilised countries. To all of them work is a means, and not itself the end; on which account they are not very select in the choice of the work, provided it yields an abundant profit.

But there are rarer men who would rather die than work without enjoyment in their work: the fastidious people, difficult to satisfy, whose object is not served by an abundant profit, unless the work itself be the reward of all rewards. Artists and contemplative men of all kinds belong to this rare species of human beings; and also the idlers who spend their life in hunting and travelling, or in love affairs and adventures.

They all seek toil and trouble in so far as these are associated with pleasure, and they want the severest and hardest work if it be necessary. In other respects however they have a resolute idleness, even if it should spell impoverishment, dishonour, and danger to health and life.

They are not so much afraid of boredom as of work without pleasure; indeed they require much boredom if their work is to succeed with them. For the thinker and for all inventive spirits boredom is the unpleasant "calm" of the soul which precedes the happy voyage and the dancing breezes; he must endure it, he must await the effect it has on him: it is precisely this which lesser natures cannot at all achieve! It is common to scare away boredom by every means, just as it is common to work without pleasure.

-- Nietzsche

 

[oldmanofthesea]

You don't immediately assume the reason she asked you not to leave marks is so that her boyfriend won't see them?

You're really analyzing this. The self-focus is good and will lead to self improvement but I see a lot of circular thinking and hamster wheel spinning here. I've been there. When it comes to women, I've found simplification really helps. You're asking too many questions and need to break it down to the most simple possible terms so you can keep repeating them to yourself until it sinks in.

From what I see, you had a relationship with this girl where you both had a lot of feelings and a lot of dysfunction. Many buttons were pushed and it sounds like there was some codependency as well. My experience is that you just cant come back to that kind of thing and expect anything to be different. Your respective "frequencies" will result in the same pattern as before. Of course you desire it but you know it's not good for you so you should leave it alone and move on.

Your saying you've been in monk mode leads me to believe that you have no other choices with women, so that too plays a factor here. You can't let scarcity and familiarity cause you to become so weak and blind that you go back to putting your hand on the hot burner.

If you go back, the dynamic will reestablish itself, if it even goes that far. If you go back and she rejects you, it will sting and has the potential to make you really obsess over her (depending on your level of self mastery - but be honest with yourself here). If you go back it will cause a hit on your self esteem because instead of moving forward and finding someone new, you're admitting to yourself that you are incapable and sealing that thought through your action.

 

[EyeOnThePrize]

You don't immediately assume the reason she asked you not to leave marks is so that her boyfriend won't see them?

You're really analyzing this. The self-focus is good and will lead to self improvement but I see a lot of circular thinking and hamster wheel spinning here. I've been there. When it comes to women, I've found simplification really helps. You're asking too many questions and need to break it down to the most simple possible terms so you can keep repeating them to yourself until it sinks in.

From what I see, you had a relationship with this girl where you both had a lot of feelings and a lot of dysfunction. Many buttons were pushed and it sounds like there was some codependency as well. My experience is that you just cant come back to that kind of thing and expect anything to be different. Your respective "frequencies" will result in the same pattern as before. Of course you desire it but you know it's not good for you so you should leave it alone and move on.

Your saying you've been in monk mode leads me to believe that you have no other choices with women, so that too plays a factor here. You can't let scarcity and familiarity cause you to become so weak and blind that you go back to putting your hand on the hot burner.

If you go back, the dynamic will reestablish itself, if it even goes that far. If you go back and she rejects you, it will sting and has the potential to make you really obsess over her (depending on your level of self mastery - but be honest with yourself here). If you go back it will cause a hit on your self esteem because instead of moving forward and finding someone new, you're admitting to yourself that you are incapable and sealing that thought through your action.

Well said. Actually I've been monking for so long that I realized I've been very hard on myself mentally. I decided to jump back on OLD and already have a few dates setup with some 9+. What guru said made a lot of sense, that is to simply meet other women to stimulate non-needy brain ciruitry. It seems to have worked and I'm looking forward to these dates, but in a very non attached, take it or leave it way. I don't care if I get laid I'm going on them to have a good time in the moment and see if these women are worthy. I'm also getting a lot more attention on OLD than I ever have, despite only being on for a couple days. I think the months of harsh introspection have created the mental independence I wanted. I didn't allow myself a more objective point of reference because I was meticulously digging through myself. Now that I have I'm pleasantly surprised.

My understanding of sub-text has come back and I remember how to play the game of seduction to keep things entertaining for these new girls. Mixed with what I've learned in all the material I've read here and from associated text I'm extremely confident. I'm shocked at how quickly I turned around just by focusing my energy on having a good time in the moment with women. It sounds easy and simple yet I've been uncomfortable with it for months until very recently.

i know exactly what you mean about going back to her. Like touching a hot stove for the second or third time. I've turned the stove off though. I see the game she's playing right now. Whether she didn't want marks because she's seeing someone or because she was testing me is irrelevant. It implies I'm not worthy of it, and I don't need that. I had invited her out a couple days after seeing her and she responded after many hours to say she's busy but 'would like to hang out', despite not giving me a counteroffer. I let it be and a couple days later she again out of the blue sent a message saying she's definitely busy then but that she's 'up for hanging out sometime', again with no counter. My response was to say I totally understand and that she's welcome to let me know when she wants to come by for dinner. As a gauge I threw a very subtle point in about my life. Her not picking up and running with this point or otherwise pushing to carry on the conversation has confirmed my above speculation about her fake interest game. I don't intend to leave my house for her.

In my opinion she was trying a carrot on a stick strategy. By this I mean lead me to believe she wants to hang out so that she can later turn me down but continue the same line, that she really wants to see me but just so happens to be busy on the day I pitched. We all know the proper response is to playfully acknowledge her busy schedule and walk.

i can sense her wheels spinning while I'm free to meet these other gorgeous women that are talking to me like the high value man I sense that I am. She's attempting to impose her frame, and in that frame I'm weak. I don't even acknowledge her frame anymore and it's causing her to rethink her approach. She will undoubtedly become extremely submissive if she chooses to come, it's the only option I'm giving her. Even if she comes over she's going to think I'll try to have sex with her and I plan to let her do all the initiating and pushing for anything sexual. I want her to sweat, to understand that I have no obligation to do anything with her, that I have options, even when she's rubbing up on me. I'm not crouched and waiting her, not at all actually, but that's my game plan should she want to come by. I will be on the fence because that's what she deserves from me. She needs to prove herself worthy. My mindset has already changed significantly even since my last post on this thread.

I'll admit I'm being validated by these new women and they are definitely making me feel better about myself but as long as I stay vigilant in my personal growth and don't let it go to my head I feel there's nothing wrong with it.

locking myself away and forcing introspection was extremely hard and extremely beneficial. It's definitely something that can be overdone and can cause resignation or craziness. But now the natural progression feels to be to enjoy the abundance of other women that are quite frankly better looking, healthier, and more respectful than my ex. I have no hang ups at this point and for the first time in a long time I feel as though no woman can say or do anything to upset me. I'm planning a post that will explain how I jump-started myself as I think lots of men get stuck at that point between deep solitary introspection and jumping into abundant female attention.

 

[guru1000]

This is akin to eating and being full.



Every thought that we have originates from ego, grasshopper.



You couldn't describe love because it's a social construct, made for man.



I'm tired of your gay ego talk. I just typed a sentence, that was ego.

You’re still chasing relevance. It’s born of ego. The journey is fun as hell. That I can tell you. And when you actually become relevant, it feels even better.

One day you may get there and you will certainly rejoice in your personal achievements which made you feel relevant.

And then ... that too will pass. And you will crave something more. Something not born of the external. Something fulfilling.

When and IF you make it there, then we’ll continue this dialogue.

First conquer your corporeal mountains: physical, psychological, financial, and social. Then we’ll talk more about ego because only then will you be in a proximate wavelength to understand my words. Because in your current wavelength, my words will only be interpreted as an alien language devoid of meaning.

Stay well grasshopper. And much prosperity to you.

 

[Spaz]

You’re still chasing relevance. It’s born of ego. The journey is fun as hell. That I can tell you. And when you actually become relevant, it feels even better.

One day you may get there and you will certainly rejoice in your personal achievements which made you feel relevant.

And then ... that too will pass. And you will crave something more. Something not born of the external. Something fulfilling.

When and IF you make it there, then we’ll continue this dialogue.

First conquer your corporeal mountains: physical, psychological, financial, and social. Then we’ll talk more about ego because only then will you be in a proximate wavelength to understand my words. Because in your current wavelength, my words will only be interpreted as an alien language devoid of meaning.

Stay well grasshopper. And much prosperity to you.

The moment I'm less active on Sosuave you come crawling out of the woodwork spouting ur nonsensical nonsense of egoless again?

How abt you debate this with me @guru1000?

And this time don't go off the tangent being all emotional requesting for me to be banned like a cry baby.

 

[user43770]

You’re still chasing relevance. It’s born of ego. The journey is fun as hell. That I can tell you. And when you actually become relevant, it feels even better.

One day you may get there and you will certainly rejoice in your personal achievements which made you feel relevant.

And then ... that too will pass. And you will crave something more. Something not born of the external. Something fulfilling.

I've found relevance in my line of work and I've found relevance with women, but like you said, it isn't enough.

When and IF you make it there, then we’ll continue this dialogue.

First conquer your corporeal mountains: physical, psychological, financial, and social. Then we’ll talk more about ego because only then will you be in a proximate wavelength to understand my words. Because in your current wavelength, my words will only be interpreted as an alien language devoid of meaning.

Stay well grasshopper. And much prosperity to you.

I don't struggle physically, financially or socially; I do struggle mentally, just trying to make sense of the modern world, and the decisions that led me to where I am.

I think I should have focused more on creating a family in my youth.

I found sosuave at a young age, when the manosphere was just taking off. Most of the content I read back then were divorce horror stories and stuff on female nature. The only intelligent path I could see, as a young man, involved making money and increasing my notch count.

Over the past few years, I've come to the realization that family and friends are the only things that matter in this world.

I don't believe anyone can be egoless, unless they're a monk that meditates every waking hour, and even then it takes years. And even then, they still have an ego hidden.

*This post is sponsored by my ego and 4 beers*

 

[guru1000]

The moment I'm less active on Sosuave you come crawling out of the woodwork spouting ur nonsensical nonsense of egoless again?

How abt you debate this with me @guru1000?

And this time don't go off the tangent being all emotional requesting for me to be banned like a cry baby.

I definitely understand why you returned. I know that I previously imbued a lifelong impression upon your psyche. And I did that purposefully with good intent.

I never reported you or requested that you get banned as you state in your quote. Even here, you begin, again, by being intellectually dishonest.

I reject your request to debate because that would make you a man worthy to debate with.

However, because you have come here seeking education, I will allow you to take any Actual position in this or any other thread that you choose, and reply with an intelligible counter.

Here is the context of the intelligible criteria:

I(a): the counter will respond to the position that is actually made in the context it was written;

I(b) the counter will not contain insult;

I(c) the counter will be supported by evidence, not a bald statement. The evidence used can be factual data or even your own experience written in specific detail so that it can be admitted as evidence.

One caveat: the minute your post violates the intelligible requirement as defined in the preceding paragraph, I will respond with violation I(a), I(b) or I (c) along with an explanation of the violation, and give you one chance to redress. If you fail to redress in your next post, the discussion ends.

These are the rules And a chance for you to redeem yourself. If you accept:

1) I wish you well And hope you crush me;
2) Begin with any quote I made with your counter.