One on one

[Brooks]

I just re-read the entire thread, and now have the answer for what I would do in your shoes.

If she brings it up again, I would simply say "Do what you think is appropriate"

And if she went on the date, I would drop her like a bad habit.

I would simply tell her "Your idea of appropriate and mine are too different, so it is best if we end here. Good luck"

It is a difficult position, so I’m glad you can see the conflict of it all.

She walked with me to my work this morning. And before we left I said ‘I’ll see you on Thursday”. And she replied “yea that sounds good, haha, so I guess that means no Jim..”. And I just looked at her with pretty serious expression and said “No Jim.” Then she laughed and traced her finger down her cheek as if drawing a tear in a playful manner like she didn’t care. I laughed.
——-
Side bar: yesterday we went to the beach. Went to get some food after. Driving back to my place she was kind of talking to herself figuring out if she should go home or not. “It’s kind of late I wonder if I should go home..hmm” (was 8pm) and “this dress is a little short, I don’t know if I’d feel comfortable going on the train like this tonight”.
The prior two nights she slept over.
I had t said anything because she was more-so talking to herself.
Then she asks if she thinks three nights of sleeping together is a lot. I say ‘I really like seeing your face in the morning, what do you think?’ And she replied ‘no I don’t think it is’.
Then we get to my place. She goes to shower. She comes out and wrapped in a towel sits on the couch next to me. And she goes on to express her thoughts of why I didn’t explicitly just tell her to sleep over and that I really wanted her to.
So the whole time since she posed the first question to herself she was waiting for me to be like ‘I want you to sleep over, blah blah’ like some thirsty dude
So instead of her taking responsibility and being vulnerable and asking she shifted the onus on to me. And we had to have a talk about it for like 10 minutes. So the whole Jim coffee thing is a tactic to reveal my emotions. And she does this a lot. Rather than just saying how she feels or what she wants, she uses little tactics to get me to go first it seems.. I dunno
———
I think the above advice would be pretty drastic. The situation is complicated but I get what you’re saying about it all. I think before axing a 6 month relationship with a great deal invested, a talk or boundary would need to be communicated rather than just turfing the whole thing.

I think what @flowtheory @AttackFormation and you have said are really good. And it’s a combo of each one which needs to be done. This situation is stupid because he’s been in the picture awhile and they knew each other before we met, she Friendzoned him on the second date. And she’s always said it’s about trusting the partner and not that other person. Which I agree with but there is a line that needs to be drawn within it.
Because I don’t want to tell her or approve of who she can or can’t hang with. But getting up in arms and drawing boundaries can be taken like that. Or even leadto something worse and more covert down the line.

If it persists after this Thursday once she bailed on this phaggot I will have to engage. It’s not worth my leave of mindfk have it sit and weigh on it.

 

[SeekerOfTheWay]

I get the point of “testing” and I have done it myself. But like you said there comes a point in the relationship where that’s just a silly, passive aggressive game that leaves you playing detective and trying to figure out her motives. What if she keeps doing the same thing over and over? Hopefully you can help her see that tactic won’t get her anywhere and that her just stating her feelings or needs is probably the best way. That shows she trusts you for her to tell you what she needs. I think you’re doing what you need to and i hope it works out!

 

[Brooks]

I get the point of “testing” and I have done it myself. But like you said there comes a point in the relationship where that’s just a silly, passive aggressive game that leaves you playing detective and trying to figure out her motives. What if she keeps doing the same thing over and over? Hopefully you can help her see that tactic won’t get her anywhere and that her just stating her feelings or needs is probably the best way. That shows she trusts you for her to tell you what she needs. I think you’re doing what you need to and i hope it works out!

You know I was doing some thinking while I’m at my job now, and it just hit me.. she’s doing what you admitted to doing earlier in this thread...

She uses ‘things’ as a prop or tool to get me to reveal how I feel. It’s a toxic mode of operating because she is scared of being open and possibly rejected in a way.

-The coffee guy.. that’s to see if I care.
-The sleeping over thing three nights in a row... that’s to see if I accept her and want her around.

There was an hour (a much too long of time) after the beach when we were walking back to the car..
I sent her a few photos I took from our hike the day before which were really nice. And she used them on her instagram. She pulled out her phone and passed and showed me one photo that was getting all the likes.. it had a caption so I I scrolled a little and started reading the caption in a silly voice... she then tried grabbing the phone back, while laughing too, and we had this tug of war, and then when I finally broke free, she instantly said STOP! Give it back! You just broke my trust! Give me my phone. Why do you do that?
And so I was shocked and kind of like “are you kidding me?” In my head. So I kind of put the phone in her hand in a defeated way because it went from playful to instantly being in hot water.

She was upset about this for..no joke.. 1 hour and a bit. Saying I broke her trust and it doesn’t make her feel safe that I did that. So silly. So I apologized. And then she goes in to saying ‘I’ve never had this in any other relationship I’ve been in. This is why I usually go for soft, effeminate men, who may or may not be gay. I need superior softness and kindness. Dating a really heterosexual man is a challenge for me. In so many aspects it’s great, but in a couple other it’s so difficult for me’. (She has a history of an aggressive father who was abusive and cheated on her mother)
-Also said she doesn’t fully trust me psychologically and physically.
-Doesnt feel totally safe
(Which to me is absolutely absurd; but it’s how she feels I guess)

But my point...when she does these things, she uses them as opportunities to see all of my cards. To show I really care and everything. Because she will drag it out and go to a heavy place, being and acting really cold. However, if I go for a hug or touch her, she is still receptive.

We laid in bed last night and I was talking about how I don’t fear our relationship and stuff. And since changing a lot of my ways from 2.5 weeks ago.. I’ve been more giving of space and emotionally controlled. And so she mentioned last night she’s noticed the difference. But it seems I’m ‘aloof’ at times. And she interprets that as I care less. So she asks ‘does this all mean you care less?’

So like you said.. these are toxic tactics to get me to reveal my cards and show my care because she’s not owning her side of the relationship and just stating how she feels. It comes from a place of fear.

Thoughts?

 

[Glassguy]

she instantly said STOP! Give it back! You just broke my trust! Give me my phone. Why do you do that?
And so I was shocked and kind of like “are you kidding me?” In my head. So I kind of put the phone in her hand in a defeated way because it went from playful to instantly being in hot water.

Yeah because you'd flip out if you knew what was REALLY on her phone. After all, she is seeing other people or at least has the intent to see other people.

She was upset about this for..no joke.. 1 hour and a bit. Saying I broke her trust and it doesn’t make her feel safe that I did that. So silly. So I apologized.

How old is this chick? And how old are you? Why would you EVER apologize for being playful with a chick? Total beta move.

I would have (again) told this chick to pound sand up her @ss. But you never would do that.

But my point...when she does these things, she uses them as opportunities to see all of my cards. To show I really care and everything. Because she will drag it out and go to a heavy place, being and acting really cold. However, if I go for a hug or touch her, she is still receptive.

The point is, you have no clue as to what you are doing. She basically does what she wants to you both physically, mentally and emotionally and you just take it like a cuck.

Then you get all happy that she gives you a hug. She literally throws you a crumb and you get excited.

You have a lot to learn. You are at the right place. The question is, do you want to be a man that is good with women or a door mat?

 

[Brooks]

The relationship is more trouble than what it is worth...…………..you will never find peace as long as you are with her.

The confusion and strife you feel will never end.

This might be correct. I think the problem is with her. No matter how much I adjust my behaviour. I think she’s in it for power and control, rather than to have a healthy relationship. She did say early on that she doesn’t know if she’s truly capable of healthy relationship

Yeah because you'd flip out if you knew what was REALLY on her phone. After all, she is seeing other people or at least has the intent to see other people.

I’ve looked at her phone. There was nothing that raised flags? And she isn’t seeing that phaggot for a coffee this week either. This particular situation was about trust for her. Me scrolling without her permission was a breach of that, I suppose.

How old is this chick? And how old are you? Why would you EVER apologize for being playful with a chick? Total beta move.

I would have (again) told this chick to pound sand up her @ss. But you never would do that.

She’s 27. I’m 29.
I apologized because I took something from her which crossed the line in her books. She felt physically dominated and that made her react poorly. Becasuse had I not grabbed the phone away this all would have never happened. I was in the wrong.. even though I was coming from a playful place. I have to recognize some behaviours with her cannot be present. It’s about respecting her even though to us it may seem silly.

The point is, you have no clue as to what you are doing. She basically does what she wants to you both physically, mentally and emotionally and you just take it like a cuck.

Then you get all happy that she gives you a hug. She literally throws you a crumb and you get excited.

So what would you suggest? Except not ending it. And she doesn’t do anything to me and I just take it? She reproached me for taking her phone in a semi aggressive manner and had a reaction towards me doing that, which is also related to her childhood. That doesn’t make me a cuck just because I wanted to calm things down.

And yes I like her hugs in moments like that. Because it represents that she’s letting some heaviness go and we can return to us being in a comfortable state rather than at odds.

You have a lot to learn. You are at the right place. The question is, do you want to be a man that is good with women or a door mat?

well I want to be a man, obviously. So what should I do in this scenerio? I’m not going to break up yet.

 

[Brooks]

Consider this and see if it fits:

Red Flag behaviors - the short list

There’s some. But anyone in a relationship could find a few matching results in their own, im sure.

 

[Glassguy]

Let me put this as nicely as I can:

At 29 yrs old, you should be ALL about you. Not her.

You are a free system that she is taking advantage of.....for now. You seem very adamant about making this work with her. She doesn't. It's not your job to get her in a relationship. That's her job to get you into one.
But she seems to care less. You seem to care more. She has the power over you. It should be vise versa.

Why do you ask? Because you're a nice guy. You already admitted to being too beta already. That's not something that you can change and work with the chick you were beta with. Because then you're being a pouty bytch in her eyes.

You need to learn how to say no and apply that with the next chick. It will never work with this one.

The reason women complain about a guy (to their girlfriends) is when:
1. The guy literally does everything she asks for and more. She complains to her friends about how that guy is not a challenge and he is too nice. Friend zone material and it's a matter of time before she leaves him. She doesn't respect him.

2. The guy that doesnt go out of his way to do everything his gf asks. If it doesnt benefit him he doesnt do it. Period. She complains that her guy is stubborn. Doesnt go out of his way to do everything she asks. Tells her no without regard.

Which guy will a woman cling to? Guy #2. Why?

Because she respects him.

A woman doesnt want a guy she can control. She wants a man that she respects. Respect builds attraction.

That is what you must understand. When you didnt put your foot down by simply walking away, she lost any and all respect for you. You'll never get that back with her. At least not without truly changing your ways and trying it again with her years later.

Some men talk about being alpha. Other men are alpha. That's the difference. A woman will never stick by you and lust for you, submit to you....unless she respects you.
This one doesnt respect you because you never demanded it to begin with. Stop wasting time thinking this one is salvageable because it's not.

Bang her until you find someone new to actually be a man with .......high value and high self standards for yourself.

Hope that helps.

 

[Brooks]

You seem very adamant about making this work with her. She doesn't. It's not your job to get her in a relationship. That's her job to get you into one.
But she seems to care less. You seem to care more. She has the power over you. It should be vise versa.

She wants to make it work too, if she’s still around and pouring value in to the relationship. She was the one who wanted exclusivity with me in the first place.
I believe she seemingly cares less right now (or before I switched things 2.5 weeks ago) because I was overtly always telling and showing her my care.
Things can still change in the dynamic; this happens in many relationships.

Why do you ask? Because you're a nice guy. You already admitted to being too beta already. That's not something that you can change and work with the chick you were beta with. Because then you're being a pouty bytch in her eyes.

I respectfully disagree that someone could not change their ways. If it’s tried to change overnight? Yea pouty looking.. over three months? That’s a frog in cold to hot water. It has to be subtle.
In the last weeks, I’ve been less reactive, less demanding, granting more space and freedom, etc. And she has reached out more, been softer, we laugh more, etc.
There are still small moments where she will try a game or something to get me back to the place I was, this I know. (Her temper tantrum the other day) but she’s doing that because of the shifts.

Which guy will a woman cling to? Guy #2. W

Then I slowly start saying no. Or being more selfish in my ways. Like I stated, dynamics can change. Just because a dynamic changes doesn’t mean she just drops the guy. Women want the guy to be the man they truly want.
Alpha men can dip to betas in relationships too. Very rarely does the man ever stay the same.

That is what you must understand. When you didnt put your foot down by simply walking away, she lost any and all respect for you. You'll never get that back with her. At least not without truly changing your ways and trying it again with her years later.

There wasn’t any moment recently to put my foot down. And 2.5 weeks ago before we had the fight I wasn’t aware of my weak doings. Now I’m aware so it’s easier to see where I would go wrong.
In the situation with me taking her phone.. I was in the wrong. I shouldn’t have just walked away. That would have been wrong.

This one doesnt respect you because you never demanded it to begin with. Stop wasting time thinking this one is salvageable because it's not.

How could it not be? There’s many many aspects of our relationship that are great - she even said every area is just about golden. There has been some spots where I messed up; I can rectify those within my own self and in turn the relationship.. until she stops calling, texting, sexing, caring, that would be the sign it’s not salvageable. But she is caring and giving to us. Still frees up all her time. Is receptive. Those are indications of interest and her valuing us. I don’t think a woman who didn’t have respect for me would do all of that.
But I do agree the respect and relationship isn’t where it COULD be.

Bang her until you find someone new to actually be a man with .......high value and high self standards for yourself.

Hope that helps.

It does help. But I think you may be looking at this all with glass half full?

 

[Brooks]

That's not something that you can change and work with the chick you were beta with. Because then you're being a pouty bytch in her eyes.

It would also only look pouty if I never had a realization I’ve been acting weak. If I was trying to fake true power or self respect it would be pouty. But if I had a concrete perspective shift.. that would be much different. Betas can always become alphas. The difference that they have is just recognizing they don’t NEED someone. Alphas know they just need them and they provide value. Betas think the value falls outside of them so they sacrifice their own selves and principles for it.
It’s just a perception shift and mmainiting the ability to walk away or draw boundaries if need be.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

I respectfully disagree that someone could not change their ways. If it’s tried to change overnight? Yea pouty looking.. over three months? That’s a frog in cold to hot water. It has to be subtle.

Not to speak for GG but this is an important point he's making so I'll chime in. He isn't saying YOU can't change your ways, he's saying that if you change your ways with a girl you were needy with before, it won't fix the relationship. Essentially, once the damage has been done, the relationship is over, even if it doesn't seem to be. Instead, things might improve a bit and you'll see some progress but in the end, it won't work out. She will continue testing your boundaries and it will be a constant challenge, and eventually it will end in her dumping you.

I'm not going to say I agree with GG on this, but only because I want to believe a person can change and "fix" a relationship. However, in my own personal experience, I've never fixed a relationship after I made some of the same mistakes you made (even after I changed), so in my experience, GG is dead-on in his statement. Learning to lead women, and get in the right mindset, and be in abundance takes a long time. You start at the bottom and you slowly learn as you screw up one relationship/plate after another. Each time you screw up, you learn something, and you get a little better. I still make mistakes (obviously much less than before), and I learn from each one. It is a continuous improvement. This improvement is what you should focus on, not your relationship with this one specific girl. Besides, be honest with yourself... do you really think you're going to marry this girl and live until death do you part? The relationship is likely to end at some point, as most relationships do.

I and others can tell from the amount of energy you are putting into this thread, and the amount of push-back you are giving at the suggestion that your relationship with this specific girl isn't likely to work out, along with some of the things you are saying show that you are still in the wrong mindset. By all means, keep seeing her, but if I were you, I'd be applying the advice you are getting on how to handle her, I would pay VERY close attention to the tips you've been given on internal mindset, and I would also start dating other women. Otherwise you are very likely to be back here in weeks or months, devastated, asking for help "how to get over her" "how can I get her back" etc.

 

[Brooks]

Essentially, once the damage has been done, the relationship is over, even if it doesn't seem to be.

Well then... we as men, who are mistake making beings, must be perfect in our dealings with our women. God forbid we make mistakes. Because then all is lost. So what if I was a bit needy before, or told her eff you, or chased her down the street in an emotional state?
It’s not like I killed her family member, or I havent cared deeply, appreciated what we have or been a leader in other aspects.. this is a very fixed way of looking at things.

She will continue testing your boundaries and it will be a constant challenge, and eventually it will end in her dumping you.

She will keep testing my boundaries no matter if I’m solid or not. Women never stop testing, everyone here knows this! The important thing is to just not be swayed by what she’s attempting to do.. which is gain power for her own security and control.

Learning to lead women, and get in the right mindset, and be in abundance takes a long time. You start at the bottom and you slowly learn as you screw up one relationship/plate after another.

Sure everything in life takes a long time. But if the partner is there and still being receptive, that’s her showing she trusts some part of the process. And it has to start somewhere. The more I lead my own life and stop looking to her for validation of the relationship or where we stand, the stronger I will be. That’s really the adjustment. Just stop looking to her for reassurance. Live my life and give from abundance like flowtheory said.

This improvement is what you should focus on, not your relationship with this one specific girl.

Exactly. But she can be along for the ride. As long as she values what I’m giving and is valuing me back by giving in her own forms.

do you really think you're going to marry this girl and live until death do you part? The relationship is likely to end at some point, as most relationships do.

I have no clue. Maybe not. Maybe. Impossible to say. I would like that a lot, sure. So I’m going to still create a wonderful relationship until it does maybe fall apart. All I can focus on is what I give to it, and how I react, right? Who knows where relationships go! But I’m on this board asking things like a madman so I CAN get to a place of strength within myself and learn how to lead better.

Since 2.5 weeks ago there have been WAY less issues. We have ONE momentary issue on the weekend. That’s 1:8 hangouts issue:ideal. Before.. it was 1:1 that is a hell of a change. Compound the former to the latter and we will see what the relationship looks like in four months.
Trust and safety and all that has taken a hit because I never provided that. So no wonder she’s apprehensive and crap! That’s on me for the most part.
But to say things can’t changed or their doomed is just ridiculous in every sense of things. That makes it sound like relationships are impossible. But they’re not.

you are still in the wrong mindset.

And which mindset is that?

By all means, keep seeing her, but if I were you, I'd be applying the advice you are getting on how to handle her, I would pay VERY close attention to the tips you've been given on internal mindset, and I would also start dating other women.

All things to be woven in to my fabric of being, sure. Adjustments are necessary. But I’m not going to see other women based out of potential collapse. That’s wrong.

Otherwise you are very likely to be back here in weeks or months, devastated, asking for help "how to get over her" "how can I get her back" etc.

Doubtful. If it ends, it ends. I know I have tried everything within my power to make things work. There’s no shame or chase after one has given himself to it all.

 

[Brooks]

Personally, this relationship sounds like a lot of drama worry and work.

Yes. I think she has some baggage she needs to work through and no matter what I do, she will have something to tear it down.
She does cause a lot of drama and is prone to anxious tendencies. Quite fearful and pessimistic about the idea of relationships; this stems from her childhood.

I will use this relationship to learn about me and use her tests as simply that for my own building within the masculine realm

 

[SeekerOfTheWay]

In the end, Brooks, do what you need to do no matter what anyone says. You are living your journey. You sound like a good dude exploring this relationship with a girl you really dig. It’s nice to see you’re not cynical while also taking in all the different advice. Hang on to those qualities and listen to yourself and you’ll be fine! Give your girl a kiss and be happy.

 

[Brooks]

In the end, Brooks, do what you need to do no matter what anyone says. You are living your journey. You sound like a good dude exploring this relationship with a girl you really dig. It’s nice to see you’re not cynical while also taking in all the different advice. Hang on to those qualities and listen to yourself and you’ll be fine! Give your girl a kiss and be happy.

Yea it can just be tough when I’m putting forth solid effort. And maybe she doesn’t see fully that she has issues that need to be worked through also.
I just hope she explores her own ego within the relationship.
But you’re right. Just have to listen to myself while I keep learning here.

 

[Glassguy]

Not to speak for GG but this is an important point he's making so I'll chime in. He isn't saying YOU can't change your ways, he's saying that if you change your ways with a girl you were needy with before, it won't fix the relationship. Essentially, once the damage has been done, the relationship is over, even if it doesn't seem to be. Instead, things might improve a bit and you'll see some progress but in the end, it won't work out. She will continue testing your boundaries and it will be a constant challenge, and eventually it will end in her dumping you.

I'm not going to say I agree with GG on this, but only because I want to believe a person can change and "fix" a relationship. However, in my own personal experience, I've never fixed a relationship after I made some of the same mistakes you made (even after I changed), so in my experience, GG is dead-on in his statement. Learning to lead women, and get in the right mindset, and be in abundance takes a long time. You start at the bottom and you slowly learn as you screw up one relationship/plate after another. Each time you screw up, you learn something, and you get a little better. I still make mistakes (obviously much less than before), and I learn from each one. It is a continuous improvement. This improvement is what you should focus on, not your relationship with this one specific girl. Besides, be honest with yourself... do you really think you're going to marry this girl and live until death do you part? The relationship is likely to end at some point, as most relationships do.

I and others can tell from the amount of energy you are putting into this thread, and the amount of push-back you are giving at the suggestion that your relationship with this specific girl isn't likely to work out, along with some of the things you are saying show that you are still in the wrong mindset. By all means, keep seeing her, but if I were you, I'd be applying the advice you are getting on how to handle her, I would pay VERY close attention to the tips you've been given on internal mindset, and I would also start dating other women. Otherwise you are very likely to be back here in weeks or months, devastated, asking for help "how to get over her" "how can I get her back" etc.

Yes.....

You cant start soft and harden up with the woman. Therefore there is no fixing beta actions that happen. Not at least with that woman or at least without an incredible amount of time away from each other.

It never works.

What you allow in the beginning will continue. Always, with any relationship.

Sorry Brooksie, but if this chick had submitted to you, AND respected you, she wouldn't entertain the idea of seeing other people. Period.

You're not a great catch in her eyes so seeing other people is irrelevant. It's the fact that she sees you as replaceable that is relevant. If she was at all worried about you seeing other people, or her seeing other people, my advice would be different.

When you find something valuable you don't want to lose it.

If you lose a penny, so what? Its easily replaced.

No gf or plate of mine would have the conversation with me about seeing other people. Because they know I'd walk.

Yours knows that you really haven't changed regardless of what you say. Your actions show you arent going anywhere and she damn well k owns that. Thus she shyte tests and doesnt value you.

 

[Brooks]

If she was at all worried about you seeing other people, or her seeing other people, my advice would be different.

She is worried about me seeing other people though and sees us as a serious thing. Always mentions how annoying it is that women approach me or ask for my number, etc.....

Your actions show you arent going anywhere and she damn well k owns that. Thus she shyte tests and doesnt value you.

The tests are there because I’ve switched my behaviour within our relationship. And she’s testing to see if it’s real or not.

She knows I’m not going anywhere because I’ve stated that I want to work on this, and if she didn’t value it I would be okay with letting it go.

You're not a great catch in her eyes so seeing other people is irrelevant. It's the fact that she sees you as replaceable that is relevant.

I think I’m a questionable catch in her eyes. But she does deeply value many aspects of what we have. But I don’t think she sees me as the best she can do, sadly.

And she isn’t seeing anyone else. She kind of entertained the idea, tested to see how I responded, but has not been out with that guy.

 

[Brooks]

What you allow in the beginning will continue. Always, with any relationship.

False. I can employ a totally different way of operating within the relationship if I hold fast in being able to walk away and set boundaries.
You’re thinking is very fixed.

 

[Brooks]

@Glassguy

-Being non reactive.
-Come from abundance.
-Be non needy of her validation.
-Let her initiate contact, ill still plan dates.
-Only keep things light/fun/playful with her.
-Let her bring up relationship talks, and when she does be taciturn in my communication
-Focus on building and fortifying myself
-draw boundaries if the need arises
-always be willing to walk away if I feel disrespected

Tell me how that would not shift our dynamic and her behaviour towards me.

We’re 6 months in, not 6 years.

 

[Glassguy]

I carry a 3 chick rotation. You seem to have it all figured out lol.

6 months is nothing. You've already ruined this one with your early beta behavior

Best of luck.

 

[Brooks]

6 months is nothing. You've already ruined this one with your early beta behavior

That’s exactly what I’m saying. 6 months is nothing. So turning it around isn’t a crazy thought?

I carry a 3 chick rotation.

And that’s different from a monogamous relationship..