Some how I messed up two dates

[Craig Dates]

A friend of my recommended this forum to me to get some advice. I moved to a new area in New York and met up with some new people as well. We've been going bowling, golfing, hiking, etc. Just trying to make some friends and explore the area. A couple of months ago a new girl joined the group. I'm 34, she's 27. She was initially cold to me at first, but a couple of weeks later, she started to become warm to me.

She asked me if I wanted to check out a new sangria place that just opened up, so I said sure. She text me her # and we made plans for the week after. She was lively, and there was some touching, but we ended early since it was a work day. I waited a couple of weeks and I saw her again with the other people in the group, and we chatted a bit and I said I wasn't sure if you enjoyed yourself or not, she said, oh yes, I had a great time. I asked to her when she's available again to do something a few days after, she told me Monday works. I tried for a Friday prior, but she said she already had plans. She texted me her address, and I picked her up. A day before she texted me and we flirting back and forth a bit, and she said she likes to sing and dance. I said, oh, so you're going to sing to me tomorrow? She then replied I totally will, I have not shame. I picked her up, she wasn't as talkative as before. She didn't feel like singing and did care for any of the music on my phone; even though she was dancing to it weeks prior during bowling. Anyways, we went to a local bar, played some pool and had a couple of drinks. She seemed very standoffish and she had these shields up. I'd try to lean in to her some times, she pulled away. She didn't turn away from my touches, but anytime I tried to lean in to see if she'd meet me for a kiss, it seemed like she leaned back. I even said you're an interesting girl, but hard to read. She didn't know what I was talking about. We were talking about books for a bit and got into a little tiff on a particular book by ayn rand, and I said it was generally a book read by males as many women do not really like those topics. She got a bit taken back and said she's a feminist, she can take care of herself, and there is no reason why a woman cannot read her books. She took it out of context, but I just said, perhaps I selected the wrong words to describe my position. I said many women prefer to read fun enjoyable books, not books that are so practical and based on items within her books. We moved on, I was showing somethings on my phone about some sculptures I made and then she took my phone and starting to take pics of us and her. It was 8 pm now, and she said it was getting late and I suggested another bar to go to, she declined. We had one more drink and then we basically said at the same time ready to head out. She offered to pay, but I paid instead.

I drove her home, she gave me a quick hug and there was no time or way for me to attempt a kiss. She exited the SUV and went into her apt. No texts or anything since Monday. I'm trying to see what went wrong here. She was smiling and laughing, didn't turn away from me touching her, and I even tickled her a bit and she was laughing. I've never been in a position where I've had two dates and not even a kiss. Usually, on the second date there's some physical touching and heavy kissing. I just feel awkward about the whole situation. To add insult to injury, I'll be seeing her again with a group of friends on Sunday. I do not think it's worth asking her out again or even going out with her again if she suggests it.

I am lost. More upset and embarrassed at myself than anything.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

I am lost. More upset and embarrassed at myself than anything.

There's no ambiguity. Either she's swallowing your proteins or she's dead to you. Bury it. #nextSet

For starters, NEVER date in social circles. She'll obliterate the social circle and make you the bad guy. Other men who are simps, betas, cucks will pander. Its a classic case of stupidity. Don't participate. Ideally, you should suggest she introduce you to her HOTTER YOUBGER FRIENDS.

You said was cold at first. She is and you reciprocate with dating her? She's 27. Epiphany phase. Guaranteed that she weighs more than she did 18-23.

You said that she leans out. Haven't made out with her. What part of next don't you get? Low libido, low drive, LMR or not in the mood means next.

Finally, you have no options. What sort of challenge is that +

 

[Craig Dates]

There's no ambiguity. Either she's swallowing your proteins or she's dead to you. Bury it. #nextSet

For starters, NEVER date in social circles. She'll obliterate the social circle and make you the bad guy. Other men who are simps, betas, cucks will pander. Its a classic case of stupidity. Don't participate. Ideally, you should suggest she introduce you to her HOTTER YOUBGER FRIENDS.

You said was cold at first. She is and you reciprocate with dating her? She's 27. Epiphany phase. Guaranteed that she weighs more than she did 18-23.

You said that she leans out. Haven't made out with her. What part of next don't you get? Low libido, low drive, LMR or not in the mood means next.

Finally, you have no options. What sort of challenge is that +

Doubtful. She's a vegetarian and 105 maybe LBS wet. I wouldn't of even asked her to drinks if she didn't offer me to with her for drinks. Should I find a new social group? It's just going to feel weird going back there after Monday's results. I'm embarrassed even for myself. Not asking her out again nor entertaining anything with her. It was just a waste of time. I prefer weekend dates, but was only able secure during the week dates. To say I feel humiliated would be an understatement.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Doubtful. She's a vegetarian and 105 maybe LBS wet. I wouldn't of even asked her to drinks if she didn't offer me to with her for drinks. Should I find a new social group? It's just going to feel weird going back there after Monday's results. I'm embarrassed even for myself. Not asking her out again nor entertaining anything with her. It was just a waste of time. I prefer weekend dates, but was only able secure during the week dates. To say I feel humiliated would be an understatement.

Turn into the skid.

I am that guy. Just wanting to smash. Not play house. Act accordingly.

Fo like trump. Build a wall. Keep barriers. Separate components of your life (work, relationships, friends, etc). Thess parallels should never intersect.

Next set bud

 

[backseatjuan]

I am lost

Well are you fcking kidding me embarrassed of going back. Stop it man. These women take several different dcks each week, and you are embarrassed of what, that you didn't bang her?

It's totally fine if you dance here and there, if you fck here and there, and if you don't fck here and there. Nothing wrong with it. You'll be fine. Now you said that you are new. Few things, you gotta read book of pook and the dj bible. I also recommend AMS.

Thing that went wrong is that you did not escalate and di not flirt with her. You waiting till the last minute and she bam and told you no thanks. You should have done it from minute 1, exact moment you met her. Yes you done with her, don't even try to try again and sht, for her you are a nice guy. She might talk about you in your group as nice guy, good. That's a safety margin. You'll surprise a btch next time.

Flirting and escalation. It's about sexual tension, not friendships and compatibility bs.

 

[Robert28]

I wouldn’t waste anymore time on her. When you see her next (since you have to) let her do all the work by talking to you if she does.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

I wouldn’t waste anymore time on her. When you see her next (since you have to) let her do all the work by talking to you if she does.

Good job young jedi

 

[Craig Dates]

Well are you fcking kidding me embarrassed of going back. Stop it man. These women take several different dcks each week, and you are embarrassed of what, that you didn't bang her?

It's totally fine if you dance here and there, if you fck here and there, and if you don't fck here and there. Nothing wrong with it. You'll be fine. Now you said that you are new. Few things, you gotta read book of pook and the dj bible. I also recommend AMS.

Thing that went wrong is that you did not escalate and di not flirt with her. You waiting till the last minute and she bam and told you no thanks. You should have done it from minute 1, exact moment you met her. Yes you done with her, don't even try to try again and sht, for her you are a nice guy. She might talk about you in your group as nice guy, good. That's a safety margin. You'll surprise a btch next time.

Flirting and escalation. It's about sexual tension, not friendships and compatibility bs.

I did flirt with hand caressing, arms, etc. She even said must everything you say have a sexual cogitation with it? I was taken back by that statement. It was weird (for me) on the ride to the bar when she said that. There was never an oppertunity to go for the kiss. I tried and she even came back saying something like personal space so I back off and she wanted to leave, so we left. A complete waste of time. I blame myself, but I keep on going in my head where I fukked up. Since I didn't get it the first date, I was going to next her, but my friends said try one more time, so I did, wish I didn't.

 

[Craig Dates]

I wouldn’t waste anymore time on her. When you see her next (since you have to) let her do all the work by talking to you if she does.

After the first date that's what I did. I just said hey and she came over and hung by me. It was also weird that she'd hug me on the dates, but rarely touch me when around the other people. It's like she's playing a game. I was talking about the bar to others and then she said, oh, we should go there? I said we? Yea, you and I. On the date monday she said she wants to come over to my apt and cook for me too. So, it was so confusing interest, no interest, high interest, low interest... So yea, I feel just like shiiit because I cannot figure out what happened. She offered to pay, damn I should had let her.

She asked me if I was going to the event on Sunday, I said no, I will not be in the area. So we only meet two a month so I'd not see her again til end of the month; if she shows. I am thinking just taking a month or two away as I feel so embarrassed. I'm usually pretty good when I get them on the dates. I do not know whats fukking happening to me.

 

[Robert28]

After the first date that's what I did. I just said hey and she came over and hung by me. It was also weird that she'd hug me on the dates, but rarely touch me when around the other people. It's like she's playing a game. I was talking about the bar to others and then she said, oh, we should go there? I said we? Yea, you and I. On the date monday she said she wants to come over to my apt and cook for me too. So, it was so confusing interest, no interest, high interest, low interest... So yea, I feel just like shiiit because I cannot figure out what happened. She offered to pay, damn I should had let her.

She asked me if I was going to the event on Sunday, I said no, I will not be in the area. So we only meet two a month so I'd not see her again til end of the month; if she shows. I am thinking just taking a month or two away as I feel so embarrassed. I'm usually pretty good when I get them on the dates. I do not know whats fukking happening to me.

No need to feel embarrassed. I’ve done dumb **** I regret on dates but I didn’t apologize for it even if it caused the girl to lose interest in me. I just kept working on ME and some of the girls who lost interest came back around but I wasn’t interested then so hell with em. All of a sudden the guy they left me for didn’t look so appealing and they thought they could weasel their way back with me. If they weren’t interested in sex then I wasn’t interested in anything else. Don’t read too much into promises women make on dates in spur of the moment. They promise a lot of **** but don’t mean it, think of a car salesman.

 

[Craig Dates]

No need to feel embarrassed. I’ve done dumb **** I regret on dates but I didn’t apologize for it even if it caused the girl to lose interest in me. I just kept working on ME and some of the girls who lost interest came back around but I wasn’t interested then so hell with em. Don’t read too much into promises women make on dates in spur of the moment. They promise a lot of **** but don’t mean it, think of a car salesman.

Never apologized, as there was nothing to apologize for, but the only other thing I could had done was grab her and force my tongue down her throat. I'vd done something like that in a playful manner before, but when she said she was a feminist, I back off that option and played it cool instead. She wasn't as light an airy on monday as she is/was in public. Aside from kino and talking sexual, what else can a man do? I even called her out on acting like a basic biitch to me when she was cold when we first met; then warmed up, only to go cold again.

It just feels like shiit, that's all. Shiit like this just kills the ego.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Mistake #1 was telling her you weren't sure if she had a good time. That looks insecure and needy. Does not make you appear to be a high value, high status man.

Mistake #2 was telling her she was hard to read. That communicates that you are focused on figuring out if she likes you, instead of figuring out if she is worthy of you (IE you like HER). It gives her all the power and sets the frame of it being her choice whether to accept or reject you. She was likely testing you to see how you reacted to mixed signals and a bit of rejection to assess your confidence and frame.

Mistake #3 is talking about anything political on a date unless you are certain you both share the same politics. So this was you talking about the book. Also another mistake related to this is in your statement that "women prefer to read..." Never say this. Never say to a woman, as a man, what most women do or do not like. Even if you are right, it's just not for you to say. Now, usually only a feminist will get butt-hurt over this but I've just found it's easier and better to avoid these kinds of comments/statements.

Mistake #4 was backing down from your position on the book when she got uptight about it. Never do that. Never change your opinion or try to smooth over a disagreement about an opinion or belief.

Calling her out on hold/cold behavior is also a bad idea. Some things you must deal with overtly (crossing boundaries) and some covertly (more subtle things like hot/cold). The worst thing to do is call out cold behavior because it shows you are insecure and easily frustrated and are hoping she likes you. How would a high status man with choices respond to cold behavior? By moving on to the next girl and not wasting your time. If I was in your shoes on the second date, I would have simply looked at my watch 30 mins into the date and said, "Well it's been fun but I have to meet a friend. Let's head out" and let her hamster spin about who it was I was meeting and why I cut the date short.

She sounds a bit uptight anyway. Probably not worth the effort.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Never apologized, as there was nothing to apologize for, but the only other thing I could had done was grab her and force my tongue down her throat. I'vd done something like that in a playful manner before, but when she said she was a feminist, I back off that option and played it cool instead. She wasn't as light an airy on monday as she is/was in public. Aside from kino and talking sexual, what else can a man do? I even called her out on acting like a basic biitch to me when she was cold when we first met; then warmed up, only to go cold again.

It just feels like shiit, that's all. Shiit like this just kills the ego.

Focus on what your doing and what you should be doing. Learn to give negativity and doubt no attention. She doesnt exist to you. Stop talking about it. Stop playing the images. DO things you are interested instead. Spend time with women who DESIRE you.

 

[AJ84]

A friend of my recommended this forum to me to get some advice. I moved to a new area in New York and met up with some new people as well. We've been going bowling, golfing, hiking, etc. Just trying to make some friends and explore the area. A couple of months ago a new girl joined the group. I'm 34, she's 27. She was initially cold to me at first, but a couple of weeks later, she started to become warm to me.

She asked me if I wanted to check out a new sangria place that just opened up, so I said sure. She text me her # and we made plans for the week after. She was lively, and there was some touching, but we ended early since it was a work day. I waited a couple of weeks and I saw her again with the other people in the group, and we chatted a bit and I said I wasn't sure if you enjoyed yourself or not, she said, oh yes, I had a great time. I asked to her when she's available again to do something a few days after, she told me Monday works. I tried for a Friday prior, but she said she already had plans. She texted me her address, and I picked her up. A day before she texted me and we flirting back and forth a bit, and she said she likes to sing and dance. I said, oh, so you're going to sing to me tomorrow? She then replied I totally will, I have not shame. I picked her up, she wasn't as talkative as before. She didn't feel like singing and did care for any of the music on my phone; even though she was dancing to it weeks prior during bowling. Anyways, we went to a local bar, played some pool and had a couple of drinks. She seemed very standoffish and she had these shields up. I'd try to lean in to her some times, she pulled away. She didn't turn away from my touches, but anytime I tried to lean in to see if she'd meet me for a kiss, it seemed like she leaned back. I even said you're an interesting girl, but hard to read. She didn't know what I was talking about. We were talking about books for a bit and got into a little tiff on a particular book by ayn rand, and I said it was generally a book read by males as many women do not really like those topics. She got a bit taken back and said she's a feminist, she can take care of herself, and there is no reason why a woman cannot read her books. She took it out of context, but I just said, perhaps I selected the wrong words to describe my position. I said many women prefer to read fun enjoyable books, not books that are so practical and based on items within her books. We moved on, I was showing somethings on my phone about some sculptures I made and then she took my phone and starting to take pics of us and her. It was 8 pm now, and she said it was getting late and I suggested another bar to go to, she declined. We had one more drink and then we basically said at the same time ready to head out. She offered to pay, but I paid instead.

I drove her home, she gave me a quick hug and there was no time or way for me to attempt a kiss. She exited the SUV and went into her apt. No texts or anything since Monday. I'm trying to see what went wrong here. She was smiling and laughing, didn't turn away from me touching her, and I even tickled her a bit and she was laughing. I've never been in a position where I've had two dates and not even a kiss. Usually, on the second date there's some physical touching and heavy kissing. I just feel awkward about the whole situation. To add insult to injury, I'll be seeing her again with a group of friends on Sunday. I do not think it's worth asking her out again or even going out with her again if she suggests it.

I am lost. More upset and embarrassed at myself than anything.

Not sure why she was standoffish after the second date but I can see how a couple of your comments didn’t make it any better.

Saying women don’t usually read Rand due to its content and that women usually read fun and enjoyable books can be seen as insulting. Never mind the fact that Rand herself is a female, lol.

She came back with a red flag comment of being a feminist, so you know that dating her would be a challenge most likely.

Overall probably not a good match for you. But don’t stop going to the group just because of that. Rand would say go anyway, as what’s important is seeking your own happiness. Not going back implies that she got to you.

 

[guru1000]

Does not make you appear to be a high value, high status man.

And that is the crux of most problems men face in this forum: Projecting Low Value.

It's not so much the looks, money, or even social standing, but rather the VALUE you are projecting.

Girls size you up in accordance with their exes and fvck conquests, and if your value does not match up (or exceed), you get the boot.

• Over eager = Low Value
• Needy = Low Value
• Quick to make her your gf = Low Value
• Not sure is she had a good time and saying that = Low Value
• Not owning your position or "talk" = Low Value
• Allowing her to disrespect you or your time = Low Value
• Allowing others to disrespect you or your time in front of her = Low Value
• Etc.

If more men focus on the value they are projecting, there would be no need for this forum.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Doubtful. She's a vegetarian and 105 maybe LBS wet. I wouldn't of even asked her to drinks if she didn't offer me to with her for drinks. Should I find a new social group? It's just going to feel weird going back there after Monday's results. I'm embarrassed even for myself. Not asking her out again nor entertaining anything with her. It was just a waste of time. I prefer weekend dates, but was only able secure during the week dates. To say I feel humiliated would be an understatement.

Go easy on yourself. We're all learning in this crazy life and we need to allow ourselves to make mistakes and miscalculations.

That group is YOUR group, bro. Not hers. Go back like a king and enjoy your group with no thought about her. Simple chemistry didn't work out. So what? Don't leave your group out of embarrassment. It's YOUR group.

She is a self-proclaimed feminist with a major bug up her ass. Don't let a little girl affect you.

 

[Craig Dates]

Mistake #1 was telling her you weren't sure if she had a good time. That looks insecure and needy. Does not make you appear to be a high value, high status man.

I did this a week later at the meetup when she asked if I was open to do something else.

Mistake #2 was telling her she was hard to read. That communicates that you are focused on figuring out if she likes you, instead of figuring out if she is worthy of you (IE you like HER). It gives her all the power and sets the frame of it being her choice whether to accept or reject you. She was likely testing you to see how you reacted to mixed signals and a bit of rejection to assess your confidence and frame.

I should reframe. I said she was an intriguing woman, she smiled.

Mistake #3 is talking about anything political on a date unless you are certain you both share the same politics. So this was you talking about the book. Also another mistake related to this is in your statement that "women prefer to read..." Never say this. Never say to a woman, as a man, what most women do or do not like. Even if you are right, it's just not for you to say. Now, usually only a feminist will get butt-hurt over this but I've just found it's easier and better to avoid these kinds of comments/statements.

Agreed. Didn't think it was going to turn political. No woman I've ever dated said she read Rand. That is why I said what I said. It wasn't an attack on her gender as I studied Rand in business school. Ironically, there were no women in the class of 24.

Mistake #4 was backing down from your position on the book when she got uptight about it. Never do that. Never change your opinion or try to smooth over a disagreement about an opinion or belief.

I didn't back down, I just rephrased it. But, I agree, it can look bad, so I need to work on that.

Calling her out on hold/cold behavior is also a bad idea. Some things you must deal with overtly (crossing boundaries) and some covertly (more subtle things like hot/cold). The worst thing to do is call out cold behavior because it shows you are insecure and easily frustrated and are hoping she likes you. How would a high status man with choices respond to cold behavior? By moving on to the next girl and not wasting your time. If I was in your shoes on the second date, I would have simply looked at my watch 30 mins into the date and said, "Well it's been fun but I have to meet a friend. Let's head out" and let her hamster spin about who it was I was meeting and why I cut the date short.

The cold behavior was only apparent when we first met. I wrote her off then and she came over to me. She wasn't cold on the first or second date. But, when she entered my SUV on monday, she seemed preoccupied and different. I

he sounds a bit uptight anyway. Probably not worth the effort.
[/QUOTE]

Not sure why she was standoffish after the second date but I can see how a couple of your comments didn’t make it any better.

Saying women don’t usually read Rand due to its content and that women usually read fun and enjoyable books can be seen as insulting. Never mind the fact that Rand herself is a female, lol.

I am aware, I was just taken back that she read Rand's books and knew so much about them. It was rare and I've dated lawyers, doctors, a Judge, cops, engineers, etc. None had said they've read Rand and/ or said that she was their favorite author. It was one of the reasons why I tried to rephrase my comment. It wasn't meant to offend in any way.

She came back with a red flag comment of being a feminist, so you know that dating her would be a challenge most likely.

She actually said that prior to the book talk. I was debating if I should end it there, as that was just a weird thing to blurt out. The whole vibe was completely different than prior. I do not know what was up.

Overall probably not a good match for you. But don’t stop going to the group just because of that. Rand would say go anyway, as what’s important is seeking your own happiness. Not going back implies that she got to you.

Here's the kicker... Today's my birthday and she just texted me happy birthday.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Craig Dates]

Go easy on yourself. We're all learning in this crazy life and we need to allow ourselves to make mistakes and miscalculations.

That group is YOUR group, bro. Not hers. Go back like a king and enjoy your group with no thought about her. Simple chemistry didn't work out. So what? Don't leave your group out of embarrassment. It's YOUR group.

She is a self-proclaimed feminist with a major bug up her ass. Don't let a little girl affect you.

Maybe when I come back. I'm going away with my friends for a bit on my birthday weekend. If she told me she was a feminist, I wouldn't had dated her in the beginning. She seemed so feminine prior to monday. She was jiggered prior to the book comment, so it was certainly a confusing experience.

 

[Craig Dates]

And that is the crux of most problems men face in this forum: Projecting Low Value.

It's not so much the looks, money, or even social standing, but rather the VALUE you are projecting.

Girls size you up in accordance with their exes and fvck conquests, and if your value does not match up (or exceed), you get the boot.

• Over eager = Low Value
• Needy = Low Value
• Quick to make her your gf = Low Value
• Not sure is she had a good time and saying that = Low Value
• Not owning your position or "talk" = Low Value
• Allowing her to disrespect you or your time = Low Value
• Allowing others to disrespect you or your time in front of her = Low Value
• Etc.

If more men focus on the value they are projecting, there would be no need for this forum.

Wasn't over eager, but I did do so aggressive kino. I reached out to her a week or so later as I was doing other things. I am not needy, as I didn't ask her for anything. Make her my GF? We didn't even kiss. Again, I do not see how seeing if she had a good time a week or so later in person when she asked to do something again is a bad sign. I believe I owned my position. I do not believe she disrespected me, but I do feel my time was wasted on the second date. It's quite obvious what I was there to explore. I didn't allow anyone to disrespect me.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Men's attitude of "Please approve of me" is the scourge of our time.

Most men today project a "please accept me" vibe throughout the beginning stages. Women hate that but they soldier on, hoping the guy will get out of that mode, which he usually never does.

Men, we need to stop trying to please and impress women and instead start projecting a vibe that we are evaluating them for suitability in our lives. When we have that attitude, we convey this subconsciously to women (through words, body language and actions). This has the side-effect of raising your attractiveness a hundred-fold.