Trust

[AttackFormation]

I'll give some background for this...

Everyone all along had told her it wouldn't work out with my father, but my mother left him after I was born. A few years later she began seeing her 2nd husband, when I was 4 I got a new little brother, and when I was 6 she moved us in with him. I've grown up in a household overhearing and seeing them fighting constantly. There was no harmony in the air. They had a scathing, neurotic, unhappy relationship. So when I was 15, my mom separated from her 2nd husband. One day during that time my dad called telling me she'd sent a letter saying she'd like to get back together and that I'd said I wanted it too. He asked me not to tell her, and I've never asked her if it's true. When I was 18, she moved back in with her 2nd husband again. We've talked about it, and she's told me she's looking forward to separating from her 2nd husband when my little brother moves out and she retires.

As a child I always thought it was stupid that my mom and her 2nd husband were together, but because my father is who he is, moving in with him was never an alternative I considered and in fact I have a voluntary no contact with him (not abusive to me, just a total UFO). As part of my reflections, in the last few years I've asked my mom why she got together with my father and 2nd husband. She had a man before my father, but couldn't conceive with him. Then she met my father and as she put it, "was hopelessly infatuated with him". That's fair enough even if it was incredibly naive, but when I asked her why she got with her 2nd husband she gave some weak, half-hearted responses. But eventually she admitted two things... "I got pregnant" and "perhaps I can't explain the reason to you?". I don't know whether that meant she can't, or that she wouldn't, and I didn't press her because it was obvious she already felt pressed.

Only recently I realized this has probably had an effect on my ability to trust a woman. I can't help but think to the future. I'm terrified of spending the next decade making up for lost time in my personal growth... then ending up with a seemingly benign woman later who merely takes on a human appearance, but is an uncaring, irrational, two-faced monster: fakes its affection for me, fakes its reasons for making a life with me, fakes its orgasms with me. A woman-like android which only superficially appears to be with me because of genuine desire..

I'm terrified of this scenario. My only solid idea for how to handle this fear is to minimize the risk it comes true, by presenting myself in the future as having a lower "provider" score than I then will, and to avoid women who display baggage, lovebombing and neuroticism (writing that, and I don't know but suspect particularly about women beyond their early 20s, I feel I may as well have said "women who display they're women").

So what about you guys, got any experienced perspectives? Are you able to trust women? Or do you "trust" them to be two-faced and make peace with that and the good times for as long as they last?

 

[Billtx49]

Without trust and truth the idea of love does Not exist. They are the foundation…
Find a woman you can trust. It’s the best shot you have.

 

[AttackFormation]

Without trust and truth the idea of love does Not exist. They are the foundation…
Find a woman you can trust. It’s the best shot you have.

What makes you trust a woman?

 

[marvinlfloresq]

I'll give some background for this...

Everyone all along had told her it wouldn't work out with my father, but my mother left him after I was born. A few years later she began seeing her 2nd husband, when I was 4 I got a new little brother, and when I was 6 she moved us in with him. I've grown up in a household overhearing and seeing them fighting constantly. There was no harmony in the air. They had a scathing, neurotic, unhappy relationship. So when I was 15, my mom separated from her 2nd husband. One day during that time my dad called telling me she'd sent a letter saying she'd like to get back together and that I'd said I wanted it too. He asked me not to tell her, and I've never asked her if it's true. When I was 18, she moved back in with her 2nd husband again. We've talked about it, and she's told me she's looking forward to separating from her 2nd husband when my little brother moves out and she retires.

As a child I always thought it was stupid that my mom and her 2nd husband were together, but because my father is who he is, moving in with him was never an alternative I considered and in fact I have a voluntary no contact with him (not abusive to me, just a total UFO). As part of my reflections, in the last few years I've asked my mom why she got together with my father and 2nd husband. She had a man before my father, but couldn't conceive with him. Then she met my father and as she put it, "was hopelessly infatuated with him". That's fair enough even if it was incredibly naive, but when I asked her why she got with her 2nd husband she gave some weak, half-hearted responses. But eventually she admitted two things... "I got pregnant" and "perhaps I can't explain the reason to you?". I don't know whether that meant she can't, or that she wouldn't, and I didn't press her because it was obvious she already felt pressed.

Only recently I realized this has probably had an effect on my ability to trust a woman. I can't help but think to the future. I'm terrified of spending the next decade making up for lost time in my personal growth... then ending up with a seemingly benign woman later who merely takes on a human appearance, but is an uncaring, irrational, two-faced monster: fakes its affection for me, fakes its reasons for making a life with me, fakes its orgasms with me. A woman-like android which only superficially appears to be with me because of genuine desire..

I'm terrified of this scenario. My only solid idea for how to handle this fear is to minimize the risk it comes true, by presenting myself in the future as having a lower "provider" score than I then will, and to avoid women who display baggage, lovebombing and neuroticism (writing that, and I don't know but suspect particularly about women beyond their early 20s, I feel I may as well have said "women who display they're women").

So what about you guys, got any experienced perspectives? Are you able to trust women? Or do you "trust" them to be two-faced and make peace with that and the good times for as long as they last?

Bummer, that's tough for you. IMO, we tend to seek the same or mimick our parents relationships. I think you should read The Rational Male by Rollo.

At some point, the 1st relationship did not evolve as your mother would want then came 2nd. Then she went back to the 1st.
To get a better idea, now study her parents, is there a pattern? Did her Father or Mother have children with someone else?

You see how painful this was so your objective is to "not" repeat the pattern she has cast on you. Select a healthy woman from "Two" loving parents when you are ready. Understand relationships as you grow in life.

Not all women cheat. (I am not saying your mom cheated). You should still thrust people & have healthy boundaries.

Its a level playing field, although marriage is *risky for us men, its your responsibility to *choose wisely. You have better resources & knowledge then your parents did, so good luck.

 

[Billtx49]

What makes you trust a woman?

Never said I did, but the ones that deserve it earn it.

 

[Roober]

It's better to live with an open heart, even if it hurts.

I recommend getting some counseling where you can just word vomit all over. Your distrust in partners likely stems more from the abandonment of your father than it does from your mother's poor taste in men.

One of the first steps is identifying when you feel the distrust. Then figure out if it is rational or not, which it very likely isnt. Write down each time this happens, tell this to your therapist, and try to identify what you are feeling that prompts these behaviors.

Your are an adult now, and it's time to start having some real talks with your parents. Ask about their past. Ask about how they treated you. Ask about anything and everything. When you fill in the gaps, you will begin to learn how their shortcomings as parents limited your ability to trust other people.

The fact that you recognize it is a big first step. Now, it is just a matter of deciphering the connection between your feelings and your childhood. You have to go into this with an open mind, just like any relationship with a woman. You have to realize (and every other man) that all circumstances are not the same. When a woman cheats or leaves you, you take it as a lesson, DO NOT assume that all women acting the same way will provide the same exact result. You can pick out damaged goods from a mile away, dont join that group. Their words are as hollow as their hearts.

 

[Poonani Maker]

 

[AttackFormation]

Never said I did, but the ones that deserve it earn it.

Yeah that's what I meant, what are your criteria for "earning" it?

 

[AttackFormation]

Mate, there are so many small yet important things that it'd become a book. And even then, I'm sure that you may disagree.

I think the best thing would be for you to figure this for yourself, and your own preference. And the best way to do that is experience - particularly of "spinning plates", non-exclusively for a time.

But so you don't think that i'm fobbing you off, a few quick things.

Reliability. As in you can count on her if needed. You don't want to need her for anything, messes things up. But that she will is enough. You should be turning down her generosity regular. She should turn down yours.

Enough independence of thought that you shouldn't worry about her being swayed by peer groups, fads or whatever. Don't really know what you are getting with people like that. Women who connect to groups rather than their men make low value partners.

Competency. Can't trust incompetent people to do things. They can't even trust themselves to either.

And so on.

Plate spinning is such drudgery. "I'm not looking for sex", "I won't have sex outside of a relationship", "what are you looking for", bla bla bla... just shut up and stand still so I can make you horny. Every time they say something like this I feel like I'm playing a boring game with an NPC. Haha, it's a pain in the @ss. And then they'll bring the mess up again sooner or later, or all the time. I refuse to go sexless, but I'm not committing to girls I don't want either... yet I don't like hurting them. Need to find some good hassle-free plates. I'll be going abroad this spring term, and in the autumn I'll be in university... hopefully the grounds will be greener.

Solid suggestions, I particularly liked the independence of thought. Just have to watch out for them mirroring your thoughts to hook you, but if you're aware of that you should be fine.

 

[AttackFormation]

As @stormrider said, this game is more for sociopaths than guys like us. It isn't enjoyable for me at all.

"Spinning plates" is a necessary evil for guys like us, I think. Have you got stormrider's post?

- I don't enjoy condom sex at all. Would rather not even bother with sex in that case. But then you increase your risk of pregnancy scares and stds if you go raw. This is a constant, draining dilemma. So far I've just hoped for the best, been lucky to have some chicks on birth control and others without any pregnancy scares, and gotten myself tested.

- I'm bored and drained by coaxing through their anti-slut defense or "quality woman" front, and then having to stave it off constantly while balancing it with keeping them around. This brinkmanship is a predictable hoop, but also predictably a dreary hoop for your conscience and paranoia about whether it's their real character or if it's really "different standards for different interest levels" as we say. I feel this dehumanizes my interactions with them, like I'm talking to an NPC, and that's what's so draining.

- You have to think about the inevitable end, how to make the ditching as smooth as possible so you don't feel like like you hurt her or disrespected her. But as above, then you just become more paranoid because you have to wonder if they are genuine in their anti slut defense and you really might be hurting them, or they're just fronting it but are crazy/manipulative/opportunistic and will move on easy - thankfully so far, I don't know for sure but it seems like it's always been the latter, like my ex plate boasting to me about fvcking 20 guys in under a year after we ended it.

- Main reason why I care to do it aside from sex is two reasons... one, you need to keep your skills sharp with women so when you find a girl you actually want, you are good enough a seducer to make it happen. Two, paranoia of ending up older with your options being emotionally run-through, baggage-ladden women who see you as a baggage plow mule and don't really care for you - and not having lived a life meanwhile to hold your own versus that.


All of this adds up to being a relationship guy. But I've never been in one, and don't plan to be unless I find a girl I want to be with. Ideally until then I'll find chicks who are on birth control, std-free, and fine with being fwbs. You can dream right? lol

 

[Alvafe]

Plate spinning is such drudgery. "I'm not looking for sex", "I won't have sex outside of a relationship", "what are you looking for", bla bla bla... just shut up and stand still so I can make you horny. Every time they say something like this I feel like I'm playing a boring game with an NPC. Haha, it's a pain in the @ss. And then they'll bring the mess up again sooner or later, or all the time. I refuse to go sexless, but I'm not committing to girls I don't want either... yet I don't like hurting them. Need to find some good hassle-free plates. I'll be going abroad this spring term, and in the autumn I'll be in university... hopefully the grounds will be greener.

Solid suggestions, I particularly liked the independence of thought. Just have to watch out for them mirroring your thoughts to hook you, but if you're aware of that you should be fine.

well as long you are dealing with woman there is not such thing as hassle free, the trust its a thing the girl will need to win, trust is not given freely, but you can do some concession based if such thing would be in her interest, its like any bussiness negociation, you trust the other part will do what was agreed, and cover your ass in case he fails so you will still keep at the very least no loss

"Spinning plates" is a necessary evil for guys like us, I think. Have you got stormrider's post?

- I'm bored and exhausted by coaxing through their anti-slut defense or "quality woman" front, and then having to stave it off constantly while balancing it with keeping them around. It can't be emphasized enough how exhausting this brinkmanship is because it's a predictable hoop, but also predictably a hoop for your conscience and paranoia about whether it's their real character or if it's really "different standards for different interest levels" as we say. I feel this dehumanizes my interactions with them, like I'm talking to an NPC, and that's what's so draining.

- You have to think about the inevitable end, how to make the ditching as smooth as possible so you don't feel like an @sshole and contribute to damaging a woman. But as above, then you just become more paranoid because you have to wonder if they are genuine in their anti slut defense and you really might be hurting them, or they're just fronting it but are crazy/manipulative/opportunistic and will move on easy - thankfully so far, I don't know for sure but it seems like it's always been the latter, like my ex plate boasting to me about fvcking 20 guys in under a year after we ended it.

- Main reason why I care to do it aside from sex is two reasons... one, you need to keep your skills sharp with women so when you find a girl you actually want, you are good enough a seducer to make it happen. Two, paranoia of ending up older with your options being emotionally run-through, baggage-ladden women who see you as a plow horse sperm donor - and not having lived a life meanwhile to hold your own versus that.

you know taking some "vacation" on the whole dating is not a bad thing, there is one thing most here will say and most guys who have any kind of success will agree, you need to have fun doing so, if its not fun there is no point, so maybe do some tests with some new plates or plates you don't care about losing and start to make things you find more fun and see how it goes?

i would be more willing to let the trust issue later, since it a thing others need to win over, and concentrate on doing what you think would be fun and see if you can do things better or diferently

 

[marvinlfloresq]

It's better to live with an open heart, even if it hurts.

I recommend getting some counseling where you can just word vomit all over. Your distrust in partners likely stems more from the abandonment of your father than it does from your mother's poor taste in men.

One of the first steps is identifying when you feel the distrust. Then figure out if it is rational or not, which it very likely isnt. Write down each time this happens, tell this to your therapist, and try to identify what you are feeling that prompts these behaviors.

Your are an adult now, and it's time to start having some real talks with your parents. Ask about their past. Ask about how they treated you. Ask about anything and everything. When you fill in the gaps, you will begin to learn how their shortcomings as parents limited your ability to trust other people.

The fact that you recognize it is a big first step. Now, it is just a matter of deciphering the connection between your feelings and your childhood. You have to go into this with an open mind, just like any relationship with a woman. You have to realize (and every other man) that all circumstances are not the same. When a woman cheats or leaves you, you take it as a lesson, DO NOT assume that all women acting the same way will provide the same exact result. You can pick out damaged goods from a mile away, dont join that group. Their words are as hollow as their hearts.

Nice, very good insight.

 

[Billtx49]

At the same time that was never really my values or what I wanted.

Yep, people do change and adapt with time. Perceptions and desires certainly, not so sure about core values though…

 

[Billtx49]

Values were always monogamy, it's just I was happy to have anything at all as a beta guy and now that I improved I wish I could get more than just meaningless fake women.

Yes, monogamy can be valued, but it’s fueled by the personal perception of how your life should be lived…

 

[Soflobro#3]

What's the tldr on this video. I don't feel like watching the whole thing. What's he saying about Jordan peterson?

Edit: juden!

 

[Soflobro#3]

As @stormrider said, this game is more for sociopaths than guys like us. It isn't enjoyable for me at all.

I've been slowly learning to numb my empathy for people and just not feel bad. I've gotten better about it to. I catch myself feeling empathy and just kind of cut it off.

 

[Soflobro#3]

Yeah that's what I meant, what are your criteria for "earning" it?

They will sacrifice a lot for you

 

[Ranger]

Is the game to operate in the world of women or in the world of men?
What game do you want to play? If your game is to be a millionaire or be the best detective ever, whatever that is, I don’t believe women are part of that game.
Women or a woman could be considered a hobby if you look at it from the right context.

I did more things right than I did wrong in a 20+ year marriage. But I do know that the only real error I truly made, is that every professional move I made...was actually NOT my game in life. It was her game. Not because she made choices for me, because she didn’t.

I was the very responsible type. Almost never missed work. Ever. Thinking all along that I was making things better or that my kids were better off because of it. Hell, I built two houses with my bare hands. True, hired my brother and some others to help. That’s not the point. Why was I doing it? Was it my game? Or was it the feminine imperative game?
When I built the first one, I didn’t know Jack. I built refineries and natural gas plants.
Why did I go through all of that if it wasn’t my game?

 

[Ranger]

Know what your game is, then maybe invite someone I to it.
I completely understand you attack formation. Tough choices.
From the position I am now, I can probably make most any relationship work. Not all equal of course.

Here’s what I’ve noticed from many of the men I’ve met or observed.
They start off great. They have their power going. Right down the lane.
Then slowly. And I mean slowly. They degenerate. The feminine imperative is emanating from their spouse. She slowly gains a foot hold.

She is full of dichotomies. Things never add up to a logical ending or conclusion. I went to my last reunion and every so called “Alpha” from high school was a total cuck. They looked gray, out of shape. Really bad. How the fuk did this happen?
The feminine reality that’s in their wives, slowly over took them.

So pick your game, (you may already be doing it).
Then eliminate any form , precept of think from the feminine imperative and get rid of it. Some you have no clue that they exist. Absolutely no clue. It’s like saying “well that’s just normal”. No. It’s not.

There is not one social convention that I have found to be true now. Not one. And believe me. I look every day. I will overhear something and I immediately look at it in my mind. Our lives are an illusion. Pre-packaged and pre-made for us.

Going into a relationship. That’s for a woman to have your children and help raise them. That’s all.
If she can get a toe hold with some social convention in you, she will use it until it festers enough to reduce you. It’s her nature. It’s survival.

We want to just sit down sometimes and rest our souls. No game. No prevention. No damage control. But if we do...I swear. You may never get back up.

“There is no upside to a relationship or marriage.”
Rollo Tomassi.

 

[Roober]

Know what your game is, then maybe invite someone I to it.
I completely understand you attack formation. Tough choices.
From the position I am now, I can probably make most any relationship work. Not all equal of course.

Here’s what I’ve noticed from many of the men I’ve met or observed.
They start off great. They have their power going. Right down the lane.
Then slowly. And I mean slowly. They degenerate. The feminine imperative is emanating from their spouse. She slowly gains a foot hold.

She is full of dichotomies. Things never add up to a logical ending or conclusion. I went to my last reunion and every so called “Alpha” from high school was a total cuck. They looked gray, out of shape. Really bad. How the fuk did this happen?
The feminine reality that’s in their wives, slowly over took them.

So pick your game, (you may already be doing it).
Then eliminate any form , precept of think from the feminine imperative and get rid of it. Some you have no clue that they exist. Absolutely no clue. It’s like saying “well that’s just normal”. No. It’s not.

There is not one social convention that I have found to be true now. Not one. And believe me. I look every day. I will overhear something and I immediately look at it in my mind. Our lives are an illusion. Pre-packaged and pre-made for us.

Going into a relationship. That’s for a woman to have your children and help raise them. That’s all.
If she can get a toe hold with some social convention in you, she will use it until it festers enough to reduce you. It’s her nature. It’s survival.

We want to just sit down sometimes and rest our souls. No game. No prevention. No damage control. But if we do...I swear. You may never get back up.

“There is no upside to a relationship or marriage.”
Rollo Tomassi.

The issue is not with the feminine imperative. The issue is the lack of truly strong men. These so-called alphas were fakes, nothing more than a facade to attract and lay women. The real man is the one you see now, the simpering fool pandering to the whims of his woman. Women do not trust these men, thereby there will always be some amount of disgust and a lack of trust. Without trust, there is another man out there whom she can trust.

Who is the fake? The woman who maintained her reality and morals and is then depolarized by man who lacks leadership? Or is it the man who used the tricks to get a woman, but never possessed the internal clout to properly contend and collaborate with a woman?