Agree/Disagree - the reason "nice guy types" fail with women is...

[bigdave17]

because they come across as weak, needy, clingy, unassertive, dependent, etc....


Being loyal, loving, unselfish, attentive, considerate, etc... is all great as long as you still come across as 100% independent, strong, assertive. The 2 group of traits are not mutually exclusive.


Every one of my friends loves me because they know I would do anything for them but they also know I'm not a needy weak *****. If I was that, I don't think I would have any friends. Aren't women the same thing?

 

[ohrein]

Yes, you can (and if you want an LTR, should) be a healthy blend of alpha/beta. Put your foot down on boundaries and things that matter but be "off duty" when there is no need to be assertive. Guys who are needlessly assertive all the time about everything won't be able to keep a woman happy long term in most cases. And it's likely they won't keep friends or family either. They'll do well as sociopathic businessmen though.

 

[Spaz]

I agree with all the points and disagree on the implementation.

A man has his masculine role. In that he must always assert his boundaries there.

At the same time, a man must know a woman's role in his life. He must not interfere in that sphere. He must empower her and encourage her by standing strong when she has her emotional swings. Listen to her but don't take it to heart. Know the difference between what's masculine and what's feminine. Stay within those boundaries.

The time tested equilibrium must be maintained. When one shifts to the other, the equilibrium fails.

 

[Mike32ct]

Absolutely, it’s great to have all these positive traits without being needy or weak.

But I don’t think women are being truly honest most of the time about the “nice guy” thing.

When women reject a guy for “being too nice” or “he’s a nice guy but...,” it is almost always a looks issue imo. She doesn’t want to be “shallow” and say that it’s his looks that are lacking (or he’s not her type), so she will be disingenuous and say that she rejected him because he’s “too nice.”*

I think this throws a LOT of guys off that are trying to improve their game and/or find a gf. Then some of them feel the need to (unnecessarily) overcompensate by being a dik.

While I’m a very nice guy in real life, I no longer think in terms of “nice” or “not nice” when dealing with women. She is either attracted or she isn’t.

Of course, as a very independent lone wolf of sorts, I’m the farthest from needy. I’m actually TOO aloof and need to work on that lol.

*There are some extremely needy/clingy guys that genuinely turn women off for that reason, but I would guess they represent far less than 10 percent of the rejected “nice guys.” The other 90+ percent of rejected “nice guys” are normal guys rejected on the basis of looks.

 

[sosousage]

'every one of my friends love me' wut? who says stuff like this?

 

[zekko]

Yes, you can (and if you want an LTR, should) be a healthy blend of alpha/beta..

I don't even think it's a matter of alpha/beta. Thinking of someone other than yourself once in awhile doesn't make you a beta.

When women reject a guy for “being too nice” or “he’s a nice guy but...,” it is almost always a looks issue imo. She doesn’t want to be “shallow” and say that it’s his looks that are lacking (or he’s not her type), so she will be disingenuous and say that she rejected him because he’s “too nice.”*

When women reject you and say "You're a nice guy, but...", I think in their minds they're trying to give you some kind of consolation prize. Like they're trying to say, "You're not right for me, but you're a nice guy" - in their minds that's a compliment. With PUA/manosphere material and the internet, they may come to realize that many guys will get butthurt if you call them nice - they've read that this basically means you're a pvssy.

When a woman says you are "too nice" though, that is an insult IMO, and they know it.

 

[ohrein]

I don't even think it's a matter of alpha/beta. Thinking of someone other than yourself once in awhile doesn't make you a beta.

Absolutely. I think alpha/beta are the simplest way to phrase things around here so I tend to apply them liberally. But you are 100% correct. Being a good person does not make you beta. Although being a good person does appeal to a woman's hypergamous need for comfort, in that sense it plays into "beta". Being a good person does not turn a woman on without the physical attraction behind it.

 

[Spaz]

Not sure what you guys mean by Alpha and Beta.

For me there's only dominant or passive personalities. Yes there's levels in each of those personalities. But it's either dominant or passive.

You can't turn a naturally inclined passive person into dominant man. Sure he can act dominant, he can learn it, he can emulate it but it's all an act because he doesn't inherently have it. It'll come off as fake.

But a passive man can temper his passivity.

It's best that every man recognises his own inherent traits, for each of those personalities has their own set of geniuses.

 

[bigdave17]

Absolutely, it’s great to have all these positive traits without being needy or weak.

But I don’t think women are being truly honest most of the time about the “nice guy” thing.

When women reject a guy for “being too nice” or “he’s a nice guy but...,” it is almost always a looks issue imo. She doesn’t want to be “shallow” and say that it’s his looks that are lacking (or he’s not her type), so she will be disingenuous and say that she rejected him because he’s “too nice.”*

I think this throws a LOT of guys off that are trying to improve their game and/or find a gf. Then some of them feel the need to (unnecessarily) overcompensate by being a dik.

While I’m a very nice guy in real life, I no longer think in terms of “nice” or “not nice” when dealing with women. She is either attracted or she isn’t.

Of course, as a very independent lone wolf of sorts, I’m the farthest from needy. I’m actually TOO aloof and need to work on that lol.

*There are some extremely needy/clingy guys that genuinely turn women off for that reason, but I would guess they represent far less than 10 percent of the rejected “nice guys.” The other 90+ percent of rejected “nice guys” are normal guys rejected on the basis of looks.

When I was younger, I had some women turn me down with the "you're a nice guy but" nonsense and it wasn't looks related. I was a good looking guy in my early 20s also


your point is probably true 30-50% of the time - half the time it's going to be related to confidence/being weak or needy or whatever

 

[sosousage]

When I was younger, I had some women turn me down with the "you're a nice guy but" nonsense and it wasn't looks related. I was a good looking guy in my early 20s also


your point is probably true 30-50% of the time - half the time it's going to be related to confidence/being weak or needy or whatever

join the passive club big dave

 

[Mike32ct]

When I was younger, I had some women turn me down with the "you're a nice guy but" nonsense and it wasn't looks related. I was a good looking guy in my early 20s also


your point is probably true 30-50% of the time - half the time it's going to be related to confidence/being weak or needy or whatever

Fair enough.

Sometimes the guy IS attractive, but not HER specific type, or he’s too “clean cut” looking for her. So she might “nice guy” that type of guy also.

 

[sazc]

IMO females reject nice guys because they are not dramatic, and most people are brought up with low self-esteem.

when you have drama with someone, when they are push pulling, rejecting and making up with you, it can be very validating for a broken person. If you look at it from a different perspective, you're arguing with this person they are rejecting you and then they come back around and validate You by telling you that even though they rejected you they find you worthy and want to be with you. That's very validating for self-esteem

Nice guys don't generally cause drama. There isn't a cycle of rejection and making up. There isn't that affirmation coming from the relationship. People get bored and move on.

Eventually people get tired of the drama and look for beta providers

 

[sosousage]

IMO females reject nice guys because they are not dramatic, and most people are brought up with low self-esteem.

when you have drama with someone, when they are push pulling, rejecting and making up with you, it can be very validating for a broken person. If you look at it from a different perspective, you're arguing with this person they are rejecting you and then they come back around and validate You by telling you that even though they rejected you they find you worthy and want to be with you. That's very validating for self-esteem

Nice guys don't generally cause drama. There isn't a cycle of rejection and making up. There isn't that affirmation coming from the relationship. People get bored and move on.

Eventually people get tired of the drama and look for beta providers

yes yes!! good post. i think men like drama too, maybe not to the same degree women like it but it makes women seem more interesting if theyre like that

 

[R.U.G.]

because they come across as weak, needy, clingy, unassertive, dependent, etc....


Being loyal, loving, unselfish, attentive, considerate, etc... is all great as long as you still come across as 100% independent, strong, assertive. The 2 group of traits are not mutually exclusive.


Every one of my friends loves me because they know I would do anything for them but they also know I'm not a needy weak *****. If I was that, I don't think I would have any friends. Aren't women the same thing?

I only think you "fail" because your requirements for a woman are so damn high.

 

[HankHill]

Eventually people get tired of the drama and look for beta providers

But but...it's the betas that get sucked into the drama, the Alphas supposedly walk away at the first hint of the BS, you know the whole IDGAF thing the Alphas have going for them?

 

[R.U.G.]

But but...it's the betas that get sucked into the drama, the Alphas supposedly walk away at the first hint of the BS, you know the whole IDGAF thing the Alphas have going for them?

Agreed. I walk away once there is BS drama that was caused by pure bullsh!t. I have a zero tolerance policy for bullsh!t in any personal relationship. Every man worth his salt should as well.

 

[RangerMIke]

It's fine to be a nice friendly person. What is not okay is if you twist yourself into a knot just to make people like you.

Example: A women I just started seeing recently ask me if we could go to an event tonight which is a fund-raiser for an organization run by a friend of hers. I already had plans to do something else this evening. However, what I have planned will be over by 9 pm, and the fund-raiser will run until 10 pm. And the fund-raiser looks like something I would be interested in. So my answer was yes.... and told her I would meet her there after 9 pm. Which she agreed.

Now if I dropped everything and cancelled my plans, to go with her when she wanted me to go... OR if it was something that I did not want to do, that would be needy nice guy behavior. If you put yourself on hold for a chick and allow her to dictate the terms of when you can meet, OR if you are doing sh!t that you do not want to do, then you are being a push-over which will eventually turn her off.

 

[sazc]

But but...it's the betas that get sucked into the drama, the Alphas supposedly walk away at the first hint of the BS, you know the whole IDGAF thing the Alphas have going for them?

I know the whole IDGAF thing that you guys communicate in this website.

The reality is that this website is a very small sample of men, albeit an elite one

 

[Spaz]

yes yes!! good post. i think men like drama too, maybe not to the same degree women like it but it makes women seem more interesting if theyre like that

My girlfriend enjoys those lovely dovey drama movies. And I completely DGAF abt it one way or the other.

While I enjoy those blood, gore and adventure movies...is that drama or action ?

 

[btownbuck2012]

Our culture is so toxic that genuine confidence and civility is mistaken for weakness. A lot of that “weak needy clingy” lingo is used by toxic disordered people to alleviate the feelings of intense shame and confusion that pulse through their bodies when they are confronted with the opportunity to truly know or get to know someone, ie human intimacy, not just romantic but authentic friendship too.

That’s why social media is so popular, especially for women because it feeds their need for attention and inclusion without ever really forcing them out of their comfort zone.