Do women have to be initially attracted and "choose" you before you can run any game?

[mellow_yellow]

What's our forum's current position on this?

In one stance, plenty of members say that the woman you're interested in has to feel AT LEAST a small spark of attraction for you or else your approach and game won't go anywhere. It's said that you can only amplify attraction, NOT create it. Reminds me of David DeAngelo's saying that "attraction isn't a choice" back when reading that years ago. So if the woman has anything other than high interest, you're fighting an uphill battle and it's not worth the time pursuing her. The woman needs to be initially interested in you by liking your LMS and once she "chooses", you can spit game with higher success rate.

The other stance is to approach any woman you're interested in, no matter what. This is a straight numbers game approach. You approach 100 women to get 10 on a 1st date and maybe 1-2 lays out of it. You're following a sales funnel approach.

I feel that the general consensus is that it's 80% SMV / 20% game. If your SMV doesn't cross a minimum threshold (resume), you can't even play the game (interview). Women are the employers and we are the candidates. But if you are the highly skilled, high value candidate, then you can reverse the script and have the employers chasing you since you're extremely desired in the market.

Are there other stances I'm missing? Which point of view makes the most sense from your experience in the dating game? Discuss.

 

[MatureDJ]

Women are checklist-driven. Being considered physically attractive enough is the first checkbox.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

What's our forum's current position on this?

In one stance, plenty of members say that the woman you're interested in has to feel AT LEAST a small spark of attraction for you or else your approach and game won't go anywhere. It's said that you can only amplify attraction, NOT create it. Reminds me of David DeAngelo's saying that "attraction isn't a choice" back when reading that years ago. So if the woman has anything other than high interest, you're fighting an uphill battle and it's not worth the time pursuing her. The woman needs to be initially interested in you by liking your LMS and once she "chooses", you can spit game with higher success rate.

The other stance is to approach any woman you're interested in, no matter what. This is a straight numbers game approach. You approach 100 women to get 10 on a 1st date and maybe 1-2 lays out of it. You're following a sales funnel approach.

I feel that the general consensus is that it's 80% SMV / 20% game. If your SMV doesn't cross a minimum threshold (resume), you can't even play the game (interview). Women are the employers and we are the candidates. But if you are the highly skilled, high value candidate, then you can reverse the script and have the employers chasing you since you're extremely desired in the market.

Are there other stances I'm missing? Which point of view makes the most sense from your experience in the dating game? Discuss.

If you man enough you can have the job.

 

[IKO69]

Yes. That's the "secret"

 

[AriMamba]

It's about TIME.

The more time you have, the more game can play a roll in it. The less time you have, the more dominant SMV will have to be.

One guy with a high SMV can pull 8/9s in a nightclub fairly quickly, while another guy with a lower SMV might only pull 8/9s from social circles with more time on his side to work with.

Not a big fan of the numbers game. You can't really get around it, and sometimes I do approach regardless of IOIs being present or not, but the idea of approaching 100 women for 10 dates and 1 or 2 lays?

1. F that. I'm not doing that.

2. Even if I wanted to do that, who has that much time?

3. If you have to approach 100 women to get laid once or twice, you don't know wtf you're doing. You're just swinging wildly for the fences every time hoping to crack off a home run or two.

Time is the answer. It will tell you when SMV counts for everything or if game can give you a better advantage. Time can tell you what is realistic when working with varied interest levels, or what is a waste of time and effort. Give a DJ enough to time and he can even occasionally pull a woman now and then who shows zero interest in the beginning.

This. Man women are so unpredictable to me now that I just rather not even think about it. I could go from pulling girls in the club and meeting random women and ****ing to losing my mind off one girl the next month. Lol or maybe is just me.

 

[IKO69]

Mature's post is spot on. It comes down to initial attraction - something about your look that she perceives to be high value.

There are countless of people who have come to these boards that have had little to no luck. Conversely we've all seen witnessed situations in which men "broke" all the rules and still pulled the woman anyway. The woman simply chose him for whatever reason. Even when I was an AFC back in teenage years I had quite a few women that liked me, they told me or a friend of theirs would tell me. I was shy, quiet and awkward but the lack of game did not matter.

I wouldn't wrack my brain trying to figure out why some women become attracted and others do not, it's out of your hands. The only things you can do is keep up your appearance, improve your conversational skills, work on your career....all those things "impress" her when you start talking.

 

[Infern0]

Pretty much yes.

It's POSSIBLE TO turn it around but it takes extraordinary game, the right circumstances and luck.

It's not worth the effort to try without some level of initial interest.

 

[wifehunter]

I would ephasize humor / comedy...

If you can make her feel good through laughing, odds are she'll look at you different and say something like 'hey, you're kinda cute'.

People are more attractive, when they are having a good time. Sticks in the mud, can go sit in the corner.

 

[Spaz]

Speaking 4 myself, it's always the womenfolk making the 1st move, they start out by trying 2 look beautiful inside and out; starts off with hair grooming, clothing's, facial, body "adjustments" and then when they hv a "target" locked on, they'll seduce you ninja style, of course you'd be thinking it's you making the 1st moves.

It was her.

Then it's ur turn.

And if you meet her standards, it's a closed deal.

And that's how I get laid or get long term plates or get into an LTR, you guys just need 2 identify those "ninja" moves.

It's actually a really simple process.

Side note: Biggest failure amongst men imo is their lack of manly principles-lack of bravery. Guys just thinking 2 much, talking 2 much but not doing a thing due to fear of failure.

 

[Who Dares Win]

I dont believe I can give a detailed answer, I agree however that attraction CANT be created no matter how much game you have.

What I'm sure about instead is that within 10 seconds of interaction with a girl, I know if we are having sex or not.

 

[zekko]

Mystery used to say he knew exactly what to say to a woman in order to make her attracted. But it's probably more accurate to say that he could sort suck her in deeper if there was some initial attraction in the first place. I think about his DHV stories a lot, which he just fabricated as far as I could tell. What a faker.

 

[MichaelA]

What's our forum's current position on this?

In one stance, plenty of members say that the woman you're interested in has to feel AT LEAST a small spark of attraction for you or else your approach and game won't go anywhere. It's said that you can only amplify attraction, NOT create it. Reminds me of David DeAngelo's saying that "attraction isn't a choice" back when reading that years ago. So if the woman has anything other than high interest, you're fighting an uphill battle and it's not worth the time pursuing her. The woman needs to be initially interested in you by liking your LMS and once she "chooses", you can spit game with higher success rate.

The other stance is to approach any woman you're interested in, no matter what. This is a straight numbers game approach. You approach 100 women to get 10 on a 1st date and maybe 1-2 lays out of it. You're following a sales funnel approach.

I feel that the general consensus is that it's 80% SMV / 20% game. If your SMV doesn't cross a minimum threshold (resume), you can't even play the game (interview). Women are the employers and we are the candidates. But if you are the highly skilled, high value candidate, then you can reverse the script and have the employers chasing you since you're extremely desired in the market.

Are there other stances I'm missing? Which point of view makes the most sense from your experience in the dating game? Discuss.

From my personal experience, i can instantly realize if a chick is interested or not when i talk to her, and i'm looking in to her eyes. My radar is sharp.

if she breaks eye contact, takes her phone, she is distracted then its a waste of my time.

Now i had another situation in a club, where i approached a chick, and she was cold, and a ****ing jerk.

She said "i don't talk to guys when i'm in a club" my response was in Greek language it has different meaning then in the English one but it was in the terms of, "are you always boring like that?"

She instantly turn her body towards me and changed her behavior. She liked the "jerky" response. Most guys don't talk to her like that.

But the point of this is that, most chicks like things they don't expect so yeah i managed to get her phone number.

 

[mellow_yellow]

I would ephasize humor / comedy...

If you can make her feel good through laughing, odds are she'll look at you different and say something like 'hey, you're kinda cute'.

People are more attractive, when they are having a good time. Sticks in the mud, can go sit in the corner.

Sure, it could help spark attraction sometimes, but in my experience, it usually doesn't go far. It's not the same carnal desire like when you see a hot woman with double D t!ts at first glance. Funny is a spark that usually has a hard time getting the fire going. Sometimes the spark can catch, but it often doesn't. Real sexual attraction is spontaneous combustion.

It's also so easy to fall into the trap of entertaining her and trying to "impress" her with your character traits and banter. You have to be careful not to become the goofy guy. @f283000's take on this in his thread was eye-opening to me. I realized that I was leaving my frame to supplicate to hers.

An ugly, funny girl could chat you up and make you laugh, but would you go out with her or take her back home to smash? I think not. You'd be amused for a while then you'd go home. It wouldn't even cross your mind to take her home because you subconsciously dismissed her before she opened her mouth. Similarly, I think women are amused by guys who approach, spit game, and tell jokes. They love the free attention. Yet, it hasn't crossed their mind to take you seriously because they didn't frame you as a guy they'd like to f*ck.

If you get her number, it's usually a flake. If you get her out, she usually has lukewarm interest so you can't make any mistakes with your game.

 

[mellow_yellow]

Based on everyone's input, the forum believes in the 1st position where you can't create attraction. You just have to look your best at all times and make a move immediately as soon as you notice her choosing you.

Doesn't this mean cold approaching in 2018 and beyond is dead and virtually worthless in doing? Cold approaching reminds me of a pray & spray approach where you send your resume to hundreds of companies to hear back from none. The numbers game yields such low results, it's not worth the time you could spend working on improving your SMV.

 

[IKO69]

Based on everyone's input, the forum believes in the 1st position where you can't create attraction. You just have to look your best at all times and make a move immediately as soon as you notice her choosing you.

Doesn't this mean cold approaching in 2018 and beyond is dead and virtually worthless in doing? Cold approaching reminds me of a pray & spray approach where you send your resume to hundreds of companies to hear back from none. The numbers game yields such low results, it's not worth the time you could spend working on improving your SMV.

It has always been. A successful cold approach has always been dependent on the woman's interest. You could have a guy who could literally say the slickest thing in the world in that given the situation and the woman couldn't careless. On the other hand a guy could be a total afc and the woman likes him (for whatever reason) that guy is going to farther. All the stuff that was promoted back in the day like palm reading, magic tricks all that bull****....it was just a MEANS to the end, it wasn't an end itself.....I heard Mystery and other PUA gurus even say point blank it comes down to being a numbers game. If I am wrong then how come there isn't endless video footage of those pua guys doing cold approaches and proving their technique? Yes I know they have a handful of staged videos they used to market their products but if it really comes down to technique as they say they should have hundreds at their disposal from having been successful every weekend out. You know why this doesn't exist & why it's not out there for people to view? Because then the charade would be over and people would see they got scammed. A lot of guys got ripped off having gone to all those seminars to learn "tactics" that didn't make a difference and simply walking up to the right woman and saying anything would've sufficed as long as he had had enough tact to then steer the convo into getting her number or something.

 

[IKO69]

Hi
You could improve smv all day and still need to approach women, false dichotomy.

It's not too difficult when you've already been pre-selecting from having put in the work to raise your SMV. I mean women will literally smile at you, what's to fear?

 

[mellow_yellow]

Hi
You could improve smv all day and still need to approach women, false dichotomy.

Agreed, that's a given. You can have all the SMV in the world, but if you don't approach nothing is going to happen.

It seems very clear that we have to do BOTH, develop SMV and game in conjunction. They cannot be separated although I think the factor with the heaviest weight will always be SMV. If anyone is too deficient in either area, they can't play. Every guy has to meet a minimum threshold of both SMV and game. It can be in many different combinations like when you assign points to skills in a role playing game. You can have crazy SMV and little game or average SMV, but insane game --- any combination works, BUT ONLY IF you hit the minimum threshold for both categories.

Because our community hasn't understood this on a deep level, I think that's why we see threads that go back and forth between "looks don't matter, it's all game" vs. "looks are everything, game is sh*t" all the time. The answer is that both are required in the right amounts --- at or beyond the minimum requirement --- that works for you & your style.

My point is I think most of us are putting too much energy on the 20% (game) when we should be focusing on that 80% (your purpose / SMV). I've developed my social skills an incredible amount the past few years, but it hasn't been bringing me results. I kept getting flaked on or the girl would drop me if I didn't make a move fast enough (my current issue). My own diagnosis is that I don't need more game (aside from escalating better), I need more SMV, which I'm working on. Going 4 months strong in the gym.

 

[resilient]

You hit the nail on the head, @mellow_yellow... if a man is pursuing his passion and purpose, SMV and game should fall into place. At times when my life was falling into place with social, career, hobbies, gym, and more; I felt more confident. I achieved more personal victories, got things done... women noticed.

When I hit tough patches in the road, women didn't want to be near me or worse smelled desperation or depression and ran. I wish life was sunshine and butterflies, yet we men can get crushed upon the waves. “Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one” - Bruce Lee.

In fact this reminds me of another favorite quote from Count of Monte Cristo (2002):

"Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes. You must look into that storm and shout as you did in Rome. Do your worst, for I will do mine! Then the fates will know you as we know you: as Albert Mondego, the man!"

The trick is finding a woman with integrity that understands there are growing periods and will stand by your side as long as you continue to get up. My ex-wife gave me a few chances, yet ultimately left when my career flat lined before my second career transition.

I've been getting up every time I've fallen since. Never going to give up until I'm stronger.

 

[corrector]

Agreed, that's a given. You can have all the SMV in the world, but if you don't approach nothing is going to happen.

It seems very clear that we have to do BOTH, develop SMV and game in conjunction. They cannot be separated although I think the factor with the heaviest weight will always be SMV. If anyone is too deficient in either area, they can't play. Every guy has to meet a minimum threshold of both SMV and game. It can be in many different combinations like when you assign points to skills in a role playing game. You can have crazy SMV and little game or average SMV, but insane game --- any combination works, BUT ONLY IF you hit the minimum threshold for both categories.

Don't know if that adds up though. If you have a crazy SMV and no game then you could be attracting gold-diggers if the looks are poor, but the money and status is up. Most people are average SMVs, then why are there so many couples that are around? Are we assuming that most couples are there because the men knew some insane amount of game? Are you talking about finding a girlfriend or getting a harem here?

Because our community hasn't understood this on a deep level, I think that's why we see threads that go back and forth between "looks don't matter, it's all game" vs. "looks are everything, game is sh*t" all the time. The answer is that both are required in the right amounts --- at or beyond the minimum requirement --- that works for you & your style.

Well, there was allot of labels thrown in the past about AFCs, and PUA's and DJ's. So this has all come full circle now and if you have a high SMV then you could be as AFC as you want, have no game. Duh. So, I wonder if all these other PUA boards have shut down or gone out of business by now. Sounds like red-pill is now either gone to blue-bill or black-pill.

My point is I think most of us are putting too much energy on the 20% (game) when we should be focusing on that 80% (your purpose / SMV). I've developed my social skills an incredible amount the past few years, but it hasn't been bringing me results. I kept getting flaked on or the girl would drop me if I didn't make a move fast enough (my current issue). My own diagnosis is that I don't need more game (aside from escalating better), I need more SMV, which I'm working on. Going 4 months strong in the gym.

How is four months at the gym working for you? How much did you weigh before going to the Gym? But yeah, I have given up in game ages ago because when you understand you have either an uphill battle where you are eventually going to be in the receiving end of some B.S. from the lady or a cake-walk, who has time for an uphill battle? Now, you can improve your SMV as much as you like, but there will always be 10 other guys that has a higher SMV than you and can still pull? Do you know how much work you have to do in a GYM, plus diet, plus supplements? This is no easy task. How is your finances and other areas?

How do you know you won't end up bitter like bigdave17? You put in all this investment on SMV and can only attract MILFS or used up women you wouldn't only want to deal with in a dry-spell while the 20-30 year old single college girls go do not choose you? Suppose you are not happy with the type of women you are able to attract because of a skewed dating market where you'll have to be a celebrity in order to have the type of SMV weight you are talking about.

 

[mellow_yellow]

Don't know if that adds up though. If you have a crazy SMV and no game then you could be attracting gold-diggers if the looks are poor, but the money and status is up. Most people are average SMVs, then why are there so many couples that are around? Are we assuming that most couples are there because the men knew some insane amount of game? Are you talking about finding a girlfriend or getting a harem here?

I said that a man must hit his own minimum combination of SMV and game that allows him to play the game effectively. When I said a guy could have crazy SMV and little game, I meant that he has enough game, not no game. I should've said "some game" rather than "little game" to clarify. If the high SMV guy doesn't have enough game, he'll get chewed up by gold diggers and p*ssy whipped by women.

I think the reason why there's plenty of average couples around is due to local vs. regional markets. More couples have met through online dating apps, but I'll bet that most of the average couples met through their circle of friends. You're pre-qualified as a cool guy or girl when you meet in the same social circle. That social circle can be friend's house party, the restaurant staff you work with as a server, your running club, or whatever. I see those as local markets. When you participate in a regional market via Tinder / Coffee Meets Bagel / Bumble / etc. where it's everyone in a 50 mile radius then it's all based on competitive value. No, I don't think average guys have insane game. They just leverage their personalities better in a local market where they have an advantage and that's not as fiercely competitive as a regional market.

Staying true with what's been said in our forum...it's build a harem first by spinning plates and when you find a plate that deserves to be your girlfriend, that's when you can settle down. In today's world, it's a serious mistake to reward a woman with a relationship until she works for it.

Well, there was allot of labels thrown in the past about AFCs, and PUA's and DJ's. So this has all come full circle now and if you have a high SMV then you could be as AFC as you want, have no game. Duh. So, I wonder if all these other PUA boards have shut down or gone out of business by now. Sounds like red-pill is now either gone to blue-bill or black-pill.

I doubt that the man is a classic AFC if he has high SMV. These guys are used to having so many options, they develop an ego and entitlement as they deal with so many women wanting them. They are the so-called naturals. Same thing happens to women who started off cute and innocent and once they learned how to dress and put on make-up, pushed their SMV from a 7 to 9. They learn how to deal with the male attention and play with their options.

For the people who are awake to reality, it's red or black pill nowadays. You either do something about what you can control or give up because there's nothing you can do about the market.

How is four months at the gym working for you? How much did you weigh before going to the Gym? But yeah, I have given up in game ages ago because when you understand you have either an uphill battle where you are eventually going to be in the receiving end of some B.S. from the lady or a cake-walk, who has time for an uphill battle? Now, you can improve your SMV as much as you like, but there will always be 10 other guys that has a higher SMV than you and can still pull? Do you know how much work you have to do in a GYM, plus diet, plus supplements? This is no easy task. How is your finances and other areas?

How do you know you won't end up bitter like bigdave17? You put in all this investment on SMV and can only attract MILFS or used up women you wouldn't only want to deal with in a dry-spell while the 20-30 year old single college girls go do not choose you? Suppose you are not happy with the type of women you are able to attract because of a skewed dating market where you'll have to be a celebrity in order to have the type of SMV weight you are talking about.

So far it's going well. I've hit PRs in all the major compound lifts. Weighed 199 lb and I'm at 189 with more muscle mass. I'm slow in losing body fat faster because I'm not staying super strict with my diet. That's my fault. I'm noticing one or two women checking me out every now and then, which I've never experienced before. I'll need to get my weight down to 170-175 lb. to look really great at 10-15% body fat. I'm posting progress threads as I go along in my journey so I can track the changes in my life.

I agree man. This is a huge uphill battle with this insane hypergamous market so it comes down to either trying to do something about it or not. Red pill or black pill right? Yeah, there will always be hotter guys, richer guys, smarter guys...that's always been a fact of life. I'm working on maxing out what I can for myself. I have to keep going to get the best possible outcome that I can. Improving finances, getting ripped, growing social circles, and all that stuff is really difficult, but I refuse to become a man-child like some of my 30+ year old friends who dress sloppy, drink all the time, and f*ck low quality skanks.

I honestly think in this current dating climate, it's almost a winner takes all system. The 20% of men get everything and the rest of men don't. We'll see what happens if more men don't marry. We have men who are giving up and living as men-children and more men who realize marriage is a huge mistake and avoiding it altogether.

Yeah, it's possible I can end up becoming bitter like bigdave because trying to raise my SMV isn't a guarantee that I'll get what I want. I'd rather take this risk over the 100% chance of not doing anything and feeling absolutely miserable without money, health, and whatever else. At least if I do get ripped and get wealth, I can live a more comfortable and healthy life unlike like the majority of Americans. I'd also have the option to GTFO and travel abroad to different markets. It's good to be fit and make more money even if I don't get women in the end because I'll be benefiting me for me. That's the basis of the real idea of red-pill MGTOW vs. the "**** this sh*t, I'm not going to try even though improving myself would benefit me" black-pill MGTOW. Life is tough. Either I need to fight or give up. I choose to give this a fight.