The sociapath/Narc at work

[Fruitbat]

So, I work in a competitive sales environment. However, I have a conscience, good morals and am def not on the sociopathic scale.

This post is a long one but I hope it helps someone. I will explain my position, and what I've learned and hopefully others can share experiences.

I've fallen foul of one or two true sociapath/Narcs in my career. One I currently work with and, believe me, if you don't know what I mean, you've not met one. If you have, you know what I mean.

Often they are very, very popular and gregarious. You'll only know if you have something they want. We are given sales territory and this guy is on the one next to mine. There is a lot of overlap and if I left he would probably get my territory. Even if not, we will often get in disputes about leads etc.

The way these people work is beyond normal comprehension. They set situations up to make you look bad. Butter the right people up and then use that to discredit you. I've had outright lies, but very believable and credible ones spread.

For example, following my divorce I was depressed - seriously. I was a bit unkempt and negative for a couple of years. I once disclosed to colleagues, what, 8 years ago that I smoke weed, so it was known. This guy got the entire business believing my divorce was a lie and I was effectively a drug addict.

Other teams in the business look at me strangely, as I know this guy has got to them. He would wind me up on the sly when important people couldn't hear, then play my reaction as some "crazy thing". He trolled me on facebook till I retaliated (took weeks) then showed my retaliation and deleted his provocations. He even spun my "lies" when I had an afternoon out because my mum was sick.

Anyway, there is a LOT more, checking my diary, using this to pre-empt my work and beat me to it. It's riddiculous.

My initial reaction is to get mad. This is a BAD move.

What has worked:

- NEVER bite to a provocation.
- Never talk to anyone - they will have a story lined up as to how YOU are the aggressor. Don't complain, say they are a decent person and act confused as to any "beef"
- Completely avoid - as far as you can, my aggressor used my tactic as an example of how I wasn't a team player. Avoid as much as you can within limits.
- DON'T take them on, unless you have mafia. They will never back down and usually are better connected.

- DO be publicly good to them, treat them like an old chum
- KEEP YOUR PERSONAL LIFE, OPINIONS, LIKES AND DISLIKES OUT OF WORK

Any other experiences and reflections welcome.

 

[speed dawg]

Yeah, good points. You essentially have to give them nothing, always keep your mouth shut. Document everything in writing. It's amazing how much more power you have when you write things down. Even if it's gibberish. People assume that if you write things down you must be serious.

The point about not taking them on is gold. All sociopaths have a bunch of people who are under their deception, because they make them feel very good. Many times they are very charming.

It really sucks when these people are inside your own family because, yes, you truly have to avoid. And with social media now, it's even harder to avoid.

 

[Von]

Yeah, good points. You essentially have to give them nothing, always keep your mouth shut. Document everything in writing. It's amazing how much more power you have when you write things down. Even if it's gibberish. People assume that if you write things down you must be serious.

The point about not taking them on is gold. All sociopaths have a bunch of people who are under their deception, because they make them feel very good. Many times they are very charming.

It really sucks when these people are inside your own family because, yes, you truly have to avoid. And with social media now, it's even harder to avoid.

SpeedDawg, we agree on something

I think these people should be treated like you do in a seduction game.... Talk to minimun, Always polite and Firm, Mind your own stuff.

Don't give them anything to bite on and let them play their own game in their corner. If they want to include others.... keep your frame, and focus on YOUR RESULTS.

Cut them early from your social interactions and links towards you...

Example (here I might need you guys):'' Narc is doing a great job, I am glad he sees me as a peer. Don't have time to mingle in office politics, corporate needs results and I am focused on giving them good stuff.'' ''Narc said you were a beautiful girl, he's right. I thought he had a gf''. etc.

Let them dig their own grave, cause they will eventually especially if they aren't feed.... if you don't feed them... people around will notice the narcs are full of sh!t.

Always keep your frame up, the positivism, and your work on... and beat them at the results

 

[Fruitbat]

SpeedDawg, we agree on something

I think these people should be treated like you do in a seduction game.... Talk to minimun, Always polite and Firm, Mind your own stuff.

Don't give them anything to bite on and let them play their own game in their corner. If they want to include others.... keep your frame, and focus on YOUR RESULTS.

Cut them early from your social interactions and links towards you...

Example (here I might need you guys):'' Narc is doing a great job, I am glad he sees me as a peer. Don't have time to mingle in office politics, corporate needs results and I am focused on giving them good stuff.'' ''Narc said you were a beautiful girl, he's right. I thought he had a gf''. etc.

Let them dig their own grave, cause they will eventually especially if they aren't feed.... if you don't feed them... people around will notice the narcs are full of sh!t.

Always keep your frame up, the positivism, and your work on... and beat them at the results

Sad fact is often the results can be dictated by who you know, not what you know.

This guy worked my boss a treat and they are very chummy, and this is the main reason I wrote this up. If you don't know they exist (I didn't, I never, ever experienced someone like this before) then they will run you over first time and cause irreperable damage.

My issue as well is I was easy to provoke. The guy is 20 years older so I've forgiven myself for biting.

To spot them early on, I can attest:

- Can be introverted/extroverted but there is always either dedication to appearance or dedication to social status.
- Often involved in community events. Politics, churches, social structures with potential for authority and networking.
- Beware skillfully charming people.
- If you observe smirks, stares, other psycho type face pulling you've got a winner.
- Can become almost childish if challenged or looses limelight
- May come to you first with tales of another target. My guy targetted my colleague when we were new but swapped to me when he worked out we were working in close proximity
- If you show weakness they react like predators. When he knew I had some family issues he really ratcheted it up a notch.
- Petty winning pointless points is a big factor

 

[Julian]

hmmm i disagree on the chess game your playing with these psychos. in my experience its best to face them head on and call them out. had this issue once at a government job. I pulled the boss aside to the back room and put it all out. I just straight up said im a grown man here to do a job and this narc has an attitude problem.

if you are in a social zone and hes talking **** or spreading lies, CALLL HIM OUT. "hey man, ive been noticing you like to gossip alot and spread lies, CLASSIC sociopathic behavior. Are you targetting me for some reason?

Put it all out there and put this little ***** on blast. in my situation the guy was also like 15 years older and keep in mind i had been nothing but respectful and cordial.

anyway the next time i saw dude a few days later he was actually taking up for me when some customer was getting fresh. and he came to me and said he didnt want any issues and respects me and from that point on we were cool and joked etc. no problems after.


show them you arent a *****

 

[Spaz]

I've been in many of this situations, nature of my job, it's all politics and perfectly normal. The higher up the ladder u r, the more politics there is.

The moment you kept quiet and passive is the moment people will start to think it's true. If a narrative abt you is being continously spin then that's the "truth". That's ur reputation. If it's a good reputation, let it be, if it's a bad reputation then you'll need to take decisive action.

I forsee a bad ending 4 you if you persist down this path.

 

[BeExcellent]

It's delicate. I have seen both environments. Where the Narc targets me and works through others toward character assassination, and also the situation where I've stood up for myself successfully.

The character assassination type is far more common in my experience. These types are very tough to deal with because most people are weak minded and conflict avoidant. If Narc is a physically attractive specimen then people want to associate with good looking people and typically they read others well and are in fact very charming.

Dealing with a Narc requires a complex skillset. 48 Laws of Power gives numerous tactics and rationale and you should study this book fastidiously to learn how to recognize & deal with these people.

They are driven by drama and need attention & drama to fuel their insatiable appetite. They will deflect, blame and divert anything negative from themselves (they abhor accountability) but they will snatch up all the credit they can...whilst stepping on others as they go.

The best way to deal with them is to quietly succeed in the background, do not confront directly, give them a little positive attention by way of meaningless conversation here & there (That tie is great on you - Your hair looks great today -) nothing remarks that flatter but cannot be used against you, and you say very little about yourself or what you think.

You must make your numbers and be well prepared in meetings and have competent answers if you are asked a question. In this way you become a less appealing target because you are not reactionary and you are always getting your result and well prepared.

As long as you make your numbers and are prepared you'll do fine.

Read 48 Laws of Power if you have not. It helped me greatly in understanding professional dynamics. I discovered I was often guilty of breaking Law 1: Never Outshine the Master. I am quite accomplished in my field and often have more knowledge & talent than the people who hire me. You'd think the people are hiring me because of that expertise. That's only true to a point. They are hiring me to make THEM look good through the application of my expertise. They don't want to learn anything themselves or recognize shortcomings in their own experience.

So get the book. Read & absorb.

 

[marvinlfloresq]

So, I work in a competitive sales environment. However, I have a conscience, good morals and am def not on the sociopathic scale.

This post is a long one but I hope it helps someone. I will explain my position, and what I've learned and hopefully others can share experiences.

I've fallen foul of one or two true sociapath/Narcs in my career. One I currently work with and, believe me, if you don't know what I mean, you've not met one. If you have, you know what I mean.

Often they are very, very popular and gregarious. You'll only know if you have something they want. We are given sales territory and this guy is on the one next to mine. There is a lot of overlap and if I left he would probably get my territory. Even if not, we will often get in disputes about leads etc.

The way these people work is beyond normal comprehension. They set situations up to make you look bad. Butter the right people up and then use that to discredit you. I've had outright lies, but very believable and credible ones spread.

For example, following my divorce I was depressed - seriously. I was a bit unkempt and negative for a couple of years. I once disclosed to colleagues, what, 8 years ago that I smoke weed, so it was known. This guy got the entire business believing my divorce was a lie and I was effectively a drug addict.

Other teams in the business look at me strangely, as I know this guy has got to them. He would wind me up on the sly when important people couldn't hear, then play my reaction as some "crazy thing". He trolled me on facebook till I retaliated (took weeks) then showed my retaliation and deleted his provocations. He even spun my "lies" when I had an afternoon out because my mum was sick.

Anyway, there is a LOT more, checking my diary, using this to pre-empt my work and beat me to it. It's riddiculous.

My initial reaction is to get mad. This is a BAD move.

What has worked:

- NEVER bite to a provocation.
- Never talk to anyone - they will have a story lined up as to how YOU are the aggressor. Don't complain, say they are a decent person and act confused as to any "beef"
- Completely avoid - as far as you can, my aggressor used my tactic as an example of how I wasn't a team player. Avoid as much as you can within limits.
- DON'T take them on, unless you have mafia. They will never back down and usually are better connected.

- DO be publicly good to them, treat them like an old chum
- KEEP YOUR PERSONAL LIFE, OPINIONS, LIKES AND DISLIKES OUT OF WORK

Any other experiences and reflections welcome.

Hummm, the only thing I agree is keeping personal stuff private. This is awful way to handle this IMO. I got two people fired already for this type of nonesense.

In the work environment, I always become my boss right hand. Any person who would "try to dismantle" my integrety is not putting effort in the work itself, and if the boss/company/agency seases to make revenue because of this drama, then I along with this clown could be layed off.

Get him fired before he gets the "two" of you fired. Dont ignore things. Dont be a push over. Be irreplaceable.

 

[ubercat]

The diary has potential to build a sand trap. Put real diary in the cloud on taskly or one of the hundreds of others.

Feet him low value and difficult leads. And occasionally sacrifice a real lead to keep him in the bunker.

 

[ubercat]

Although I personally wouldn't try and out game a psychopath. They have spent their whole life practicing.

I d do as the others have said build your alliances and go friendly turtle mode whenever this guy us around

 

[Spaz]

Depends on the end goal ubercat, if he's looking to climb up fast then he must subdue his opponent by being effective at his job and also by being aggressively counter attacking his narratives, preferably whilst in a sales meeting.

Hold ur stand and don't be a pushover, colleagues will respect that, even ur opponents.

They will recognise strength.

 

[ubercat]

I agree if this guy stages a frontal attack. Because of the background culture. Sales guys don't normally mind a bit of rough and Tumble.

However if you are going to stage a shoot out I'd make sure you had some supporters in the room. Lone gunmen don't last long. Which circles back to my comment on building alliances. Smarter of your colleagues might realise that the guy could come for them next

It also very much depends on the nature of the attack. From fruit bats original post it sounds more like this guy is going to try and undermine him with the group. In the difficult personalities zoo he is a sniper. @Fruitbat google on how to deal with a sniper you'll find they have a specific set of tactics and so of course there's a specific set of countermeasures. A smart guy like you might find something useful there

 

[Spaz]

A shootout ONLY by reasonable facts is the best defensive strategy when being undermined regardless of alliances.

No one is able to dispute it, if they do it'll come off as emotional thus undermining themselves.

A sales team is always under pressure to perform, KPI's etc. Very competitive but also very rewarding in that you build relationships and not just sales per se.

How a sales manager/rep conducts himself whilst under attack is always monitored, and it's an opportunity to showcase his resolve in dealing with it. This will translate in ur dealings with tough customers.

I review my sales country managers as such, promoting those who I'd view as having strength, it's a trait that's needed to run sales teams with diverse personalities.

 

[Fruitbat]

The issue I have always had in this situation:

- The dude is 20 years older and it's hard to battle that experience
- The dude is TERRIBLE at his job but he cultivates a really "nice guy" attitude while targetting me, because if I am gone, he benefits massively.
- I am NO social climber. I often upset people because I don't sugar coat anything. I feel like a leader trapped in a subordinates frame.
- I am good at my job and more articulate/intelligent than a lot of the team. I am a threat whereas this guy isn't.
- The guy is the same background, political party and interests as the boss. I am a very different person to the boss.
- The boss is a fair man and didn't buy in totally to the smear campaign, however, it put me in a very upset frame for a while, especially when I was divorcing and my mother was suicidal etc, and I still don't know if my boss fully believed me.

The guy contributed very little to the business, indeed, he often shows he knows very little about the job, but he is so unfailingly charming to everyone but me nobody can really see it.

My main error was and has been allowing him to provoke me to reactions which he then will use as ammunition to galvanise others against me. Plus not being too sociable which he has used to make me out to be somebody who isn't "for the team"

The truth is, I haven't wanted to socialise when he's there, because the very sight of him makes me want to throw up.

This guy is very clever and he had his story ready when I predictibly disengaged from social events when he started the campaign. It's basically play mind games and stuff, and if I am not enthusiastic about hanging out as a team, I'm the bad guy. The boss wouldn't believe a word I said - he thinks this guy is a solid guy.

 

[Von]

The issue I have always had in this situation:

- The dude is 20 years older and it's hard to battle that experience
- The dude is TERRIBLE at his job but he cultivates a really "nice guy" attitude while targetting me, because if I am gone, he benefits massively.
- I am NO social climber. I often upset people because I don't sugar coat anything. I feel like a leader trapped in a subordinates frame.
- I am good at my job and more articulate/intelligent than a lot of the team. I am a threat whereas this guy isn't.
- The guy is the same background, political party and interests as the boss. I am a very different person to the boss.
- The boss is a fair man and didn't buy in totally to the smear campaign, however, it put me in a very upset frame for a while, especially when I was divorcing and my mother was suicidal etc, and I still don't know if my boss fully believed me.

The guy contributed very little to the business, indeed, he often shows he knows very little about the job, but he is so unfailingly charming to everyone but me nobody can really see it.

My main error was and has been allowing him to provoke me to reactions which he then will use as ammunition to galvanise others against me. Plus not being too sociable which he has used to make me out to be somebody who isn't "for the team"

The truth is, I haven't wanted to socialise when he's there, because the very sight of him makes me want to throw up.

This guy is very clever and he had his story ready when I predictibly disengaged from social events when he started the campaign. It's basically play mind games and stuff, and if I am not enthusiastic about hanging out as a team, I'm the bad guy. The boss wouldn't believe a word I said - he thinks this guy is a solid guy.

Why not go to another firm and ask for a raise ? If you are a salaried based

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Bureaucratic organization corrupts human nature. You get those who suck up to the power structure of the management in order to 'climb that ladder'. And you get those who keep their head down, stay off the radar, and just do their job.

It's really about resistance and collaboration. Remember, collaboration has a double meaning - to be a team player and collaborate, and to be a collaborator. Little resistances lead to big ones, and littles collaborations also lead to big ones, for we are creatures of habit. I know people who espouse the most enlightened rhetoric about human rights and freedom etc, yet in their practical lives... collaborate. This is due to the divorce of 'theory' from practice in my opinion, of privatizing theory [and abstract rights] from our practical public lives.

In a nutshell, we are losing our integrity. So what you may ask. Well, small collaborations lead to big ones... and our culture will be in danger of losing its real freedoms. Things will become more controlled and bureaucratized as you see in a country like China.