on low self esteem girls

[The Diver]

Everyone has frame, it's his projection of himself to the world and to himself. Frame is what defines a man and ultimately his reputation.

Yes, agree , of course everyone has frame, when I said " I assuming he had a frame to start with" I meant "A know how frame" not just any frame, I should have been more specific in my reply

On hypergamy, when a woman is in love with you, hypergamy ceases to exist.

And yes, agree, hypergamy won't happened while she's still in love with you.

 

[chinaski]

This, like I said to OP, she had no respect for him....

...because he had no respect for himself, lied, faked his 'alpha' status.

The minute he begged her for sex she would have known he was being inauthentic, but probably, she already knew, when someone is weak, they always show their weakness, its something EVERYONE here has to work on every day, reading, meditating, working out. Whatever they have to do. You can't just pick up some lines off some fake-ass guru and expect da bitchez to fall for it, and even if they do, it won't be for long, learn to realise your true awesomeness and do your best to make sure the girl isn't a nutcase and all will be good.

just to be clear,
i do have internalized the first part of pickup, i have no problems with it. i have no social fear of talking with women and proceed with seduction. i did it since the beginning of my sexual life and i doesn't scares me, is part of myself. i see other men that are literally scared of women, in the initial phase, and i ask to myself how that could be, what image they present of themselves. that part is not faked, is real. when i see a beautiful girl i see an opportunity. not something that scares me.

the problems usually come out later in the relationship. when i attach i become dependent, and when i become dependent (emotionally) from the other person and i feel even the little disconnection i don't know how to manage those emotions. they get the best of me. training for this is hard, because i have to be in a relationship to get those felling to arise, is not something that i normally experience in my day to day life.

sometimes i fear other people and social situations, but it's a magnitude less strong than what i feel when i'm in a relationship; socially is something that i learned to overcome and it's not anymore a problem for me.

but when i have this connection it's like is a safe zone, where i can feel loved and accepted and that's what ****s me: deep inside i think that a girl should accept me for who i am and love me inconditionally and i aim for this type of connection. but unfortunately i had enough experiences to understand that this kind of love is not possible. see "women in love" from rollo tomassi to understand what i'm saying.

i spent the entire last year to understand healthy relationships and all the psycholgist self help books tell you to be vulnerable and open with your partner; reality is that if you show those emotions and don't control them you're ****ed because on a basic level men and women operate in opposite ways. in this relationship i wanted to try to be more open, more "vulnerable", but this backfired hard. not that it wouldn't have backfired if i used masks to hide my real self, when those mask comes off your true colors show up and girls start to run away.

so.. how can i evolve, how can i be more masculine and self-centered and not base my happiness on other, especially women? how can i make grow the inner child that comes out in relationship to a man?

 

[chinaski]

i realized now, after a few days from starting this discussion, that i always behaved in this way since i was 17. i'm 34 now. always the same behavior, always expecting that the woman could support me emotionally an finally i can open up and be loved and admired for what i did and for the tribulations of my life. and if that doesn't happen i revert to protest, needy and insecure behavior to fix the situation. and it didn't worked. never. the only girl that i've been with for a long time was someone who was besides me when i was fighting some big big problems in my life, but since i wasn't so much attracted to her and never asked for her help she pictured me (still today since we are on good terms) as a secure, determined and courageous individual. every single one of the other relationships (10 so far if we don't count short flings) the moment i opened up myself and let myself go i literally ruined things with my own hands. it took me literally 17 years to figure this out and finally i understand what the **** happened. now i have to work on controlling my feelings when those arises. but all those occasions that i literally make run away from me...what a fool i was.

 

[chinaski]

Too many fuc*ked up stuff in this "relationship" , but my first and most important rule in my "rulebook" is: I won't tolerate Insulting and disrespecting from my partner.
If I'm to be insulted or disrespected once, I'll "warn" the girl not to do it ever again, the next time is: " Fu*ck Off " , no second chance, b'cos from here, it's only down the hill.

Clear boundaries and rock solid frame from the start will eliminate millions of others problems down the road.

let me see if i got this right

if, in this relationship, i kept emotional control and didn't let the feelings of being validated from the other person to get the best of me;

if, in this relationship, i entered the interaction with a sexual frame from the start (not an overt thing but something that is felt from the other part, i cannot explain this, it's like you are absolutely sure of ****ing the girl and you are jus toying with her excitement)

if, i deflected **** tests without getting angry, pissed an so on,

if, i'm able to behave like a man, lead without hesitation, don't need her for validation, don't expect her to be an emotional supporter, if i am centered in myself and on my life purposes (career, spiritual, personal goals), while keeping this "unaffected" frame,

if, most of all, i can be an example for her (or someone else), someone to look up to, without being arrogant or too childish (and that's a bit hard for me)

if, i am able to draw strong boundaries without resorting to ultimatum or fights (and i should understand better how to draw boundaries),

if all of this happens a girl should feel secure that she has a man besides her. so she'll open up (emotionally and physically). in this case the girl was virgin but i've not been able to arousal her enough. probably because i backed away too soon, didn't being assertive enough. (in this case there could be sexual problems anyway but i'm not sure if there are real sexual issues or if she didn't found a man "man enough" to had sex with, the lack of sexual desire on her part honestly baffles me anyway. if what she tells me is true all her relationship were like that, she even told me that a previous bf told her that he felt castrated with her)

this should be the right mindset?

 

[The Diver]

let me see if i got this right

if, in this relationship, i kept emotional control and didn't let the feelings of being validated from the other person to get the best of me;

if, in this relationship, i entered the interaction with a sexual frame from the start (not an overt thing but something that is felt from the other part, i cannot explain this, it's like you are absolutely sure of ****ing the girl and you are jus toying with her excitement)

if, i deflected **** tests without getting angry, pissed an so on,

if, i'm able to behave like a man, lead without hesitation, don't need her for validation, don't expect her to be an emotional supporter, if i am centered in myself and on my life purposes (career, spiritual, personal goals), while keeping this "unaffected" frame,

if, most of all, i can be an example for her (or someone else), someone to look up to, without being arrogant or too childish (and that's a bit hard for me)

if, i am able to draw strong boundaries without resorting to ultimatum or fights (and i should understand better how to draw boundaries),

if all of this happens a girl should feel secure that she has a man besides her. so she'll open up (emotionally and physically). in this case the girl was virgin but i've not been able to arousal her enough. probably because i backed away too soon, didn't being assertive enough. (in this case there could be sexual problems anyway but i'm not sure if there are real sexual issues or if she didn't found a man "man enough" to had sex with, the lack of sexual desire on her part honestly baffles me anyway. if what she tells me is true all her relationship were like that, she even told me that a previous bf told her that he felt castrated with her)

this should be the right mindset?

This is why I said this Relationship is ****ed up:

fast forward to a month, we are dating exclusively --Why ?

huge red flags keeps appearing and i keep ignoring --Why?

one night we were joking and she downright insults me!!!

and when she was in the mood she wanted me to make her *** but often didn't reciprocated !!!

I felt not wanted, not cared enough in this relationship!!!

had no problem with her seeing him (her Ex)!!!

while she is in constant connection with her ex bf !!!

yet she was very affectionate physically and we hugged all night, cuddled often !!!

she tells me that she did things with another men (remember we split up because there was no intimacy, so no bonding essentially, yet she went to bed with another one)!!!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,,,,,,,(and we hugged all night, cuddled often !!!)


Now tell me, where can you see the light in this "Relationship"

(I actually didn't blame you, I just stated that this relationship ****ed up ,although you should be blame for not leaving her much sooner (ignored red flags) )

 

[Spaz]

Just go read the DJ Bible.

Report back to us after you applied some of what you've learnt.

Everyone here wants you to succeed, remember that.

 

[chinaski]

This is why I said this Relationship is ****ed up:

fast forward to a month, we are dating exclusively --Why ?

- honestly we was spending lots of time together, she wasn’t seeing other guys and I wasn’t seeing other girl. It’s not like we had the exclusivity talk, just happened

huge red flags keeps appearing and i keep ignoring --Why?

- because I didn’t know better. But she is a virgin, should I have left her because she was like that? I thought that at some time she would open up. Honestly on the sexual aspect what should I have done? It’s obvious that she has to grow in that sense

one night we were joking and she downright insults me!!!

- i told her that I don’t accept that but she closed and cried. I mean I wasn’t angry or mean. She told me that in her previous relationship they joked all the time and she insulted her previous bf and they laughed. I told her that this is not the case and she told me that I was too serious and she was joking

and when she was in the mood she wanted me to make her *** but often didn't reciprocated !!!

- that’s a big no. I felt this way in bed, it in other aspect of the relationship. She was very affectionate but what could I do, force her into sex? I’m asking honestly

I felt not wanted, not cared enough in this relationship!!!

- that stems from the sexual aspect. Without intimacy I felt disconnected and resentful. Again i’m asking honestly, what should I have done?

had no problem with her seeing him (her Ex)!!!

while she is in constant connection with her ex bf !!!

-those two need explaining. On the very first date she told me about this guy. I told her that I had no problems because I have too a couple of exes that I hear regularly (like once a week, she was in constant connection) but I really wasn’t jealous. I think that the worst thing to do is showing jealousy, she was very clear and honest about that and never hid anything. I read the messages often and met the guy once and couldn’t care less. But Maybe this is just me.


yet she was very affectionate physically and we hugged all night, cuddled often !!!

she tells me that she did things with another men (remember we split up because there was no intimacy, so no bonding essentially, yet she went to bed with another one)!!!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,,,,,,,(and we hugged all night, cuddled often !!!)

- it’s clear that the other man excites her more, as far as I can tell he is more dominant. And I excite her less. And part of the problems is that i behaved with her in a very understanding way and considering her an equal. That didn’t turn her all, at all. As far as I know the previous long term bf was like that too and was desperate because no sex, and she treated like a queen.


Now tell me, where can you see the light in this "Relationship"

(I actually didn't blame you, I just stated that this relationship ****ed up ,although you should be blame for not leaving her much sooner (ignored red flags) )

I answered in the quote, I know you guys don’t blame me and I am here to learn

 

[The Diver]

I answered in the quote, I know you guys don’t blame me and I am here to learn

All the bold quotes in my previous post shouldn't happen in a healthy relationship, IMHO.
You rationalize your actions , but point is, in your next relationship, don't repeat things that clearly didn't worked in the past, and expect different outcome.
(As you saw, even a virgin will give herself willingly and quickly to an experience man who make her wet)

In general, you want a relationship that will add value and happiness to your life, not misery, frustration and stress. This should be your indicator to stay or leave a relationship .

As others already suggested, Read the DJ Bible and things will be much more clearer to you.

 

[Spaz]

In general, you want a relationship that will add value and happiness to your life, not misery, frustration and stress. This should be your indicator to stay or leave a relationship .

^ Rule of thumb in any relationship

 

[chinaski]

All the bold quotes in my previous post shouldn't happen in a healthy relationship, IMHO.
You rationalize your actions , but point is, in your next relationship, don't repeat things that clearly didn't worked in the past, and expect different outcome.
(As you saw, even a virgin will give herself willingly and quickly to an experience man who make her wet)

In general, you want a relationship that will add value and happiness to your life, not misery, frustration and stress. This should be your indicator to stay or leave a relationship .

As others already suggested, Read the DJ Bible and things will be much more clearer to you.

thanks for your suggestions.
i understand that another kind of behavior could have aroused her way more and the situation could have been different.

i have no excuses for this, t thought that psychological self help (see my other recent thread) could help but clear communication, honesty and being too much understating did nothing. truly desire cannot be negotiated and i didn’t know what to do (i had a virgin when i was 17 but after three times she lost her virginity with me, and that’s all my experience in that regard)

i only have a question. if i behaved differently could have gone another way? is this a case of “there are no bad dogs, only bad owners”? you avoid those things behaving differently (assertiveness and strong boundaries i guess) or the situation is ****ed from the start?

edit: that’s funny. i read pook threads when i started my journey but couldn’t understand what a “man” was at the time. now a few years later i certainly can understand what a man IS NOT. some time ago this thread helped me to fake a persona that works really well during attraction but crumbles because insecurity and lack of knowledge get the best of me in relationships:
http://www.sosuave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000371.html


i can see that lots of it came from having a child like father and a emotionally distant mother. and the only way to fix this is through changes in my behavior..

thanks for you help folks

 

[chinaski]

Just go read the DJ Bible.

Report back to us after you applied some of what you've learnt.

Everyone here wants you to succeed, remember that.

the dj bible covers lots of topics, i read the must read ones but it’s very dispersive. yet i read two or three articles every night. i think i could benefit on articles on boundaries, assertiveness, self esteem and being a better man in general. i’m searching through topics and articles but it’s hard to find solid advice, i guess most of it comes from experience.

part of the problem is that i didn’t have a role model to follow. when i’ve finished the dj bible and filtered what i need, what can i read to develop more those traits of character?

 

[Spaz]

I think you need to understand what frame really is. It's not just as simple as reading it.

Frame = Ur core values + Ur principles + Ur operating techniques.

Expanded; Frame = what you were thought as a child + how you think (knowledge) + how you do things.

How you do things in life actually is a reflection of how you think.

You need to understand what you are reading and digest it until it becomes a part of you.

Edit : There's no shortcuts, to be a great man requires sacrificing your old self and embracing new principles. These embrace principles must become part and parcel of who you are until such a time when you are no longer conscious of it.

Each time you embrace a new principle, your frame expands and strengthens.

The frame never stops growing....

 

[sazc]

This hypergamy thing you guys rely on...

As defined hypergamy is " the action of marrying a person of a superior caste or class"

This directly implies/ suggests that the female is seeking financial security.

What if the truth is that, most of the time, what you are seeing is EMOTIONAL HYPERGAMY?

After all, when you make decisions with your actions that suggest you don't care (soft next, outright NC, telling her you are seeing other women) you are speaking very loudly with your actions that you are not really all there for her emotionally.

Of course she is going to gravitate to Chad or the AFC that provides the emotional support/fulfillment she isn't getting from you. She's an emotional woman, after all.

Just thought I would throw that thought out there.

 

[Spaz]

@sazc hypergamy is a theory and not fact.

For me it's more towards biological, getting the best possible mate to produce an offspring. Nature's selection.

Men want younger, s€xy, beautiful women = good reproduction qualities = why men are attracted to those traits.

Women want stronger, powerful, masculine men = good DNA traits for their offspring = why women are attracted to Chad.

 

[guru1000]

This hypergamy thing you guys rely on...

As defined hypergamy is " the action of marrying a person of a superior caste or class"

This directly implies/ suggests that the female is seeking financial security.

What if the truth is that, most of the time, what you are seeing is EMOTIONAL HYPERGAMY?

After all, when you make decisions with your actions that suggest you don't care (soft next, outright NC, telling her you are seeing other women) you are speaking very loudly with your actions that you are not really all there for her emotionally.

Of course she is going to gravitate to Chad or the AFC that provides the emotional support/fulfillment she isn't getting from you. She's an emotional woman, after all.

Just thought I would throw that thought out there.

Until men stop thinking hypergamy is the sole impetus of women, many men will have failed relations. Hypergamy is relevant during the courting phase whereas YOU are competing with others, BUT when entering the relationship phase, hypergamy plays second fiddle to emotional connectivity.

 

[Spaz]

Until men stop thinking hypergamy is the sole impetus of women, many men will have failed relations. Hypergamy is relevant during the courting phase whereas YOU are competing with others, BUT when entering the relationship phase, hypergamy plays second fiddle to emotional connectivity.

True and cleverly put.

 

[sazc]

@sazc hypergamy is a theory and not fact.

For me it's more towards biological, getting the best possible mate to produce an offspring. Nature's selection.

Men want younger, s€xy, beautiful women = good reproduction qualities = why men are attracted to those traits.

Women want stronger, powerful, masculine men = good DNA traits for their offspring = why women are attracted to Chad.

Ur totally missing my point. I never said HYPERGAMY didn't exist, in fact I included the definition of it....

@guru1000 recaps well.

Even in the courting phase a woman is sniffing for emotional fulfillment from you. If another Chad or AFC comes at her offering more of a fering of emotional fulfillment, emotional HYPERGAMY will occur.

 

[guru1000]

Ur totally missing my point. I never said HYPERGAMY didn't exist, in fact I included the definition of it....

@guru1000 recaps well.

Even in the courting phase a woman is sniffing for emotional fulfillment from you. If another Chad or AFC comes at her offering more of a fering of emotional fulfillment, emotional HYPERGAMY will occur.

A lot of guys indoctrinated with "Hypergamy doesn't care" miss this point.

Emotional connectivity supersedes everything biological.
Emotional connectivity sparks attraction.
Emotional connectivity incites magnetic rapport.
Emotional connectivity provides the illusion of you being a soulmate.
Emotional connectivity is what most women crave.
Emotional connectivity is the mesmerizing glue of her attachment.

Emotional connectivity doesn't care that you don't understand emotional connectivity. IT operates irrespective of your awareness of its utility.

 

[sazc]

A lot of guys indoctrinated with "Hypergamy doesn't care" miss this point.

Emotional connectivity supersedes everything biological.
Emotional connectivity sparks attraction.
Emotional connectivity incites magnetic rapport.
Emotional connectivity provides the illusion of you being a soulmate.
Emotional connectivity is what most women crave.
Emotional connectivity is the mesmerizing glue of her attachment.

Emotional connectivity doesn't care that you don't understand emotional connectivity. IT operates irrespective of your awareness of its utility.

As a woman, emotional connectivity gets my panties WET. Think about that guys, words cause my body to react and make me feel close to you.

Lack of emotional connectivity eventually has me feeling ignored, unimportant, and feeling as of I can do better, find someone who will value me more.

 

[sazc]

the red pill and manospheres definition of hypergamy is a general term thats not limited to its text book definition. weve literally had pages and pages of debates on this. if i recall, you were one of the people that tried to refute it by sticking to its text book definition ie *hypergamy isnt real because it implies all women are gold diggers or will automatically jump onto the next best thing*

No, that wasnt me. Gold diggers are absolutely real.

Again, I'm referring to emotional HYPERGAMY. The idea that, if she isn't getting what she needs emotionally from you, she's bound to look for it elsewhere and/or gravitate towards the first schmuck that seems to give it to her.

Tenacity used to b1tch about women gravitating towards complete loosers. Maybe those broke a$$ loosers know how to play to a woman's emotions?