on low self esteem girls

[chinaski]

hi guys,
first, i know deep down this is my problem and i need to learn to spot secure, available and healthy partners and i'm working on it.


second, in case this could save some pain to someone, if your gut feelings tell you that something is wrong, listen to it and run, it will result in nothing but pain

met this girl later last year. we have a big age difference (22 vs 34), on the first date she tell me that she is out of a five yearish or so relationship and she went out with a lot of guys last summer (lots=more than 20 in the span of a couple of months) but had only a couple of brief relationships during that time, other ones were first dates.
as far as i know she's a virgin, but she did other things.
fast forward to a month, we are dating exclusively but huge red flags keeps appearing and i keep ignoring it: she's a bit of a workaholic, she didn't had previous "serious" friendships, during her last long relationship all she did was working and seeing this guy, she's unsure about her aspect, unsure about me,
one night we were joking and she downright insults me. maybe it was a joke but i tell her that i didn't like that and she shuts down and went in another room trying to escape the feelings. i felt a huge disconnection that night.
during the following two months i keep pushing and pushing for sex but got often turned down, and we she was in the mood she wanted me to make her *** but often didn't reciprocated. i felt not wanted, not cared enough in this relationship. yet she was very affectionate phisically and we hugged all night, cuddled often and so on
during this time she tells me that her ex (i met him and had no problem with her seeing him, i was seeing a couple of exes of mine sometimes - with sometimes i mean once in two or three months, while she is in constant connection with her ex bf) putted her on a pedestal and i wasn't doing that, and that for her joking on borderling insulting her partner was normal. she told me that sometimes her ex was desperate because of the lack of sex and affection and for her was normal.
i ignored all of this.
please don't do that.
we finally split up after a big fight when i told her that she didn't have at all the idea of being a couple, that all she was seeing was herself and that i wanted someone that puts the happiness of the partner first (without forgetting about self love of course) and she didn't even have the concept of that.
we saw each other again a couple of weeks later, she tells me that she did things with another men (remember we split up because there was no intimacy, so no bonding essentially, yet she went to bed with another one), we tried to reconcile but failed miserably.
i'm out, finally.
it took me lots of strength because i have low self esteem, in the sense that i fall even for the little gesture of love towards myself and i hang on that, but i'm glad i did after relatively short time.

i only have a question

in this relationship i tried to not use manipulation, jealousy, i was always very honest and open, in my previous relationship i always used pua techniques that came crashing down when i show my real (damaged) self,
was the girl unable to respond to normal traits of a relationship, or i did wrong because i didn't used manipulation?
i always tried to balance things, i didn't did grand gestures and tried not to lose control. i admin that after one month of being pushed away in bed i started to lose my temper and resentment grew, but my normal relationship frame is sex and intimacy at least a couple of times a week, and in this case if i was lucky i came twice in a month by her. this thing really chew your self esteem.
i'm glad i could eject before being totally devastated, but if in the next relationship i try to be correct (not afc, just knowing what i want, what i tolerate and what not, and being 100% clear and honest if the other parts deserves it) can i have a healthy relationship or i'm doomed to act as an alpha for all my life? was this girl a nutjob (i'm sure she is) and are there more stable girls that respond to normal male-female power relationship (without abuse or manipulation) or should i wear a mask and always keep a foot out of relationships?

thanks.

 

[Chev.Chelios]

I keep saying this over and over again but reading sex at dawn will solve the issues your describing here..(book gets alot of hate, lots of negetive reviews) but thats why it's so amazing.

but i must say first, what other source of information that saves lives and heals men?
this whole pickup genre! and the mainstream has been beating the chit out of this group for years. pickup has probably had the most negetive reveiws ever!

but to add to your questiond every failed relationship post on the internet, including mine ); is an exact script of each other. a copy of a copy of a copy..

bpd, trauma, breaking up, love lost forever, she did this, she did that, I tried to fix things, she lied blahhhhh..

if it's the same scenario playing out billions of times in history in modern society, then their must be a fixed solution to solve this problem. it's not what you think or brought up to believe.

woman and men arnt meant for monogamous relationships.. period!

if you can accept that all your problems will vanish. won't be easy.

 

[The Diver]

one night we were joking and she downright insults me.

Too many fuc*ked up stuff in this "relationship" , but my first and most important rule in my "rulebook" is: I won't tolerate Insulting and disrespecting from my partner.
If I'm to be insulted or disrespected once, I'll "warn" the girl not to do it ever again, the next time is: " Fu*ck Off " , no second chance, b'cos from here, it's only down the hill.

Clear boundaries and rock solid frame from the start will eliminate millions of others problems down the road.

 

[spred]

I keep saying this over and over again but reading sex at dawn will solve the issues your describing here..(book gets alot of hate, lots of negetive reviews) but thats why it's so amazing.

I just bought the book, I hope is as good as you say.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Give an appraisal

 

[christoff522]

She had no respect for you.
First things first, never assume it's her. Always ask yourself how you could have reacted, how you could have done better.
From what you've said you sound downright depressed, you've put everything on her, expected her to act as you want. You aren't coming from a position of acceptance of yourself, but expecting someone else to fill a hole for you. I mean, cuddling all night? Are you 5?

The reason she has gone and slept with other guys is because they sexually arouse her, and you didn't. I don't mean to sound insulting, but you sound so feminine and girly, not in the slightest bit alpha.

Yes the girl is a narcissist, all girls are narcissists, because mentally they are children and can only think of self, the way she behaved reacted to YOU, she was a mirror of what you put out to her, and you didn't like what you saw.

Heres what I see:
>You are desperately lonely
>Some young hot 22 year old comes along
>You try to make some sort of soulmate relationship
>You act desperate and beg her for sex
>She reacts by insulting you to test your manliness
>You fail the test
>She loses all attraction to you
>You push and pull for a while
>Break up

Don't worry mate, I've been there, and you need to use this to evolve, don't fall for old 'BPD' stuff, yes there are nutters out there, but most of the time we simply declare a girl BPD to escape from the truth that it was our fault as much as it was hers.

 

[chinaski]

my thoughts in bold

She had no respect for you.
First things first, never assume it's her. Always ask yourself how you could have reacted, how you could have done better.

that's a great suggestion. every time we had a conflict i asked to myself how to react in the most mature way that i know. i've always tried to be equilibrate and tried to not get mad with her, and calmly explained what i tolerated and what not.
case in point, one evening we were together, was a great night, we were about to buy some food, we were joking and she said something insulting to me. i told her, calmly, that i didn't accepted that and that i didn't wanted a relationship where one person insult each other. i wasn't angry. she shutted down, stopped talking, cried a little and went into another room and asked for me to drive her home. she was very hurt, even when she did something not good. after a while we reconnected but for me was the first huge red flag.

From what you've said you sound downright depressed, you've put everything on her, expected her to act as you want. You aren't coming from a position of acceptance of yourself, but expecting someone else to fill a hole for you. I mean, cuddling all night? Are you 5?

i know that i have voids and i expect people to fill them. and i know that i was ****ed from the moment i attached to her (around the first month mark), that i was no longer in control of my emotions and weaker. i know that i hav to work on myself.

but at the same time i was seeing a person that in the span of a month went from "i'm a virgin, but we can do other things" -and we did- to "i don't feel to do sexual things every time we meet". i literally don't know how to express dominance outside the bed, and in this situation i felt that i was blocked from seeing this part to her

she told me that with her previous long term bf sometimes they did sexual things once IN A MONTH. she was aware of my need for intimacy, sex, bonding and connection but couldn't even understand it.
the first time we did "sex" together (anal), she wanted to be dominated and spanked. i knew right there that something wasn't right. she wanted the act to be quick. i like to make love for hours.

i make her *** lots of times and after she always told me that she enjoy the act but felt a big emptiness inside after cumming. every time.

can you imagine? one of the first night together i made her orgasm very hard. tongue, biting, fingers in the ass, licking her hips and thighs, she came after oral and fingering, she always had those violent spasm (never saw something like that and i had my share of girls, at least in bed, at least until i attach and become weak) and then..
she just want me to hug her and don't talk.
i was there, with my boner, asking myself what the **** happened. it was an appetizer for me.
multiply the experience in the span of a couple of months. sometimes we did anal, but most of the time she just did handjobs to me, and even worse, every time was me doing something to her OR she doing something to me, NEVER mutual. if the sexual encounters were more than one a week she just pushed me away, telling me that she wasn't in the mood. as far as i know her sexual frequency was always like that. nothing that worked with other girls worked with her.

this chewed my mind and my self esteem. i felt pushed away and not enough. i don't know how a sane man could endure this, even the most alpha one. blue balls everytime and worse than that i promised to myself to not being manipulative and not use jealousy so i wasn't searching for someone else.


The reason she has gone and slept with other guys is because they sexually arouse her, and you didn't. I don't mean to sound insulting, but you sound so feminine and girly, not in the slightest bit alpha.

yes, i know very well that is easy to mask as an alpha and get her ass. the problem is sustaining it. i don't know if there is someone that can "unlock" her and have a normal, healthy, intimate relationship with her.

Yes the girl is a narcissist, all girls are narcissists, because mentally they are children and can only think of self, the way she behaved reacted to YOU, she was a mirror of what you put out to her, and you didn't like what you saw.

from the start i tried to put positive things in our "relationship". no jealousy, no drama, no manipulation.
she told me literally that she expect a man that take care of everything so she can relax and be the child
that she couldn't have been in the past, since she had big problems with her dad. that in her previous relationship her ex bf was insecure too (what a surprise) and wasn't like that. she wants a men that leads her and she wants to be the child that never was, problem is i don't want a child, i want a woman. when first she showed those traits (being childish) i was speechless. it was in strong contrast with everything that i knew about her and i didn't know how to react. i mean ok, she's 22, but some things were things that i expect from a 10 years old.
could you have putted on with all those things, having in exchange a very intelligent girl, but without or very scarce sexual intimacy, attention seeking behavior (she was in contact with lots of orbiters, she always was 100% honest on this but is not a good thing), extreme insecurity that makes her fall for every compliment that she receives and a partner that doesn't understand that relationships are a two way street and she cannot be a princess that has to do absolutely nothing except for physical presence, in addiction to abandonment issues?

Heres what I see:
>You are desperately lonely
>Some young hot 22 year old comes along
>You try to make some sort of soulmate relationship
>You act desperate and beg her for sex
>She reacts by insulting you to test your manliness
>You fail the test
>She loses all attraction to you
>You push and pull for a while
>Break up

an important note: she told me that she had traumatic experiences with her dad. non about physical abuse but more of a distant and rough father. she told me about those experience and she knows that if she can overcome those issues all her relationship problems will go away at some point, and she knows that is not normal to be virgin for a 22 year old and seeking attention in much older guys. but she told me that like a couple of weeks ago. i couldn't understand why she behave in that way without those information. i thought she was an avoidant, but i think there are some big daddy issues here.

Don't worry mate, I've been there, and you need to use this to evolve, don't fall for old 'BPD' stuff, yes there are nutters out there, but most of the time we simply declare a girl BPD to escape from the truth that it was our fault as much as it was hers.

i'm at a point that i had lots of relationships more or less like this. when my weakness shows up the girls lose interest and detach. the only way i can substain a long relationship is if there is less interest in my part (and choosing an emotionally secure partner). it's like when the feelings of insecurity came out i cannot think straight and manage them because they are so strong. i know this is because my dad was an alcoholic and my mom is emotionally close, and i'm trying to get better. i just want some confirmation that i didn't did horribly wrong in this situation and everyone (except for a man with a frame of steel) could have crumbled or bailed out at some point.

 

[speed dawg]

Yeah you were a total AFC. She had low IL from the very first date.

Read the DJ Bible.

 

[RedScorpion]

Reading your second post, I think even more so she had her own share of issues. With your own issues at hand, I think it's partly a matter of your issues not aligning. You were never going to 'fulfill' her issues because she either needs to work through them (unlikely but possible and the best choice for her) or to have someone with very specific qualities. I'd lean it towards a dash of abusive, someone who can fill that empty role of her uncaring 'father' that she never had. It's not a good position to be in. That's not healthy. It's a ****ed up situation, and I'd advise to stay away from it.

So I don't think it was all you. There were some things that were completely off, especially with the sex. No emotional intimacy. That doesn't mean a big cuddle-fest, but both people should be wanting to please the other during sex. This 'one person gets something or the other does' is off.

I'm going to put this in bold, because even you knew it I suspect - WATCH THE RED FLAGS. You knew something was off. You already mentioned it with the insults. Think back and try to note anything else that seemed off to you. There might have been others before it. Trust your gut. It's good to double check it with logic, but usually it pays off.

Try and find a girl that has less issues that you. That is your goal. This girl... I'd say she has probably a lot more issues than normal. So I'd say it's good it didn't work out between you two. Watch your own emotional connection and your 'need' that way. It's easy to be susceptible, but I think you knew something was off with this girl and you kept going with her. Not that I blame you.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Keep striving to improve yourself.

 

[chinaski]

Reading your second post, I think even more so she had her own share of issues. With your own issues at hand, I think it's partly a matter of your issues not aligning. You were never going to 'fulfill' her issues because she either needs to work through them (unlikely but possible and the best choice for her) or to have someone with very specific qualities. I'd lean it towards a dash of abusive, someone who can fill that empty role of her uncaring 'father' that she never had. It's not a good position to be in. That's not healthy. It's a ****ed up situation, and I'd advise to stay away from it.

that's the point. the point wasn't clear for me in the fist phases of dating. i don't want that type of relationship. as i said, i tend to choose unavailable or damaged women because of my own issues, and this girl is one of them. my best shot to a lasting relationship is finding a secure, emotionally balanced partner, and please do not call this and afc move, it's common sense.

i know that all girls have big or small issues, but normally my anxiety is turned on only by extreme partners (in my last three relationships sex was great, but first didn't wanted to be a couple and was very hesitant, and drove me mad, second one while a very close relative was very sick told me to "man up" instead of giving some form of support, the third one after said close member passed away distanced herself because she said i wasn't present for her - i was supporting that family member in the meantime), and a normal girl would never to the things that i listed.
note that i tried to manipulate with jealousy and control every one of those relationships and that's why now i try to put positive things in relationships.

it's like they try very hard to test my patience with extreme behaviors and problem is i remain in those relationships for too long.
i don't wanna be part of an emotionally unhealthy relationships and have a girl that flocks for male attention and if i slip up she goes to bed with another men, or if she finds a more "dominant" figure she goes away.
i want sex to be a form of bonding and exploring together, with roleplay but not with psychological dominance.

So I don't think it was all you. There were some things that were completely off, especially with the sex. No emotional intimacy. That doesn't mean a big cuddle-fest, but both people should be wanting to please the other during sex. This 'one person gets something or the other does' is off.

she didn't wanted to be seen naked. she wanted to make "sex" with lights off, even if with the course of time she was more at ease and show herself naked (before showering for example) more often, so she was opening up. that is an indication that she didn't like her (awesome) body, and is a red flag but more a minor one for me.

I'm going to put this in bold, because even you knew it I suspect - WATCH THE RED FLAGS. You knew something was off. You already mentioned it with the insults. Think back and try to note anything else that seemed off to you. There might have been others before it. Trust your gut. It's good to double check it with logic, but usually it pays off.

she didn't like to see man naked, in particular genitals. she asked me to wear my boxers in my house because her dad was around naked often when she was little and that irritates her. she is disgusted by male genitals apart from rare occasions (when she is turned on). she wants to be ****ed and has no regards for the other person and his needs, and this was true for his previous boyfriend of five ****ing years that had to pray to get and handjob sometimes. she is disgusted by sperm. sometimes she was literally irritated if i watched her naked. she is incredibly afraid of being pregnant at this time, but desires a child later in her life. we never showered together. we take a couple of baths together, still with her swimming suit on. she expects that a men takes care of everything so she can relax..and that COULD be ok, but relaxing for her means behaving like a little child. she work long hours and generally fill her time because she don't want to be alone with herself. she is terrified of abandonment, she told me that and saw strong reactions (no self harm) when i tried to distance myself. she doesn't seem to get turned on sexually by anything that i know and that applies to other girls. she doesn't know the concept of reciprocation, in bed and outside the bed.

Try and find a girl that has less issues that you. That is your goal. This girl... I'd say she has probably a lot more issues than normal. So I'd say it's good it didn't work out between you two. Watch your own emotional connection and your 'need' that way. It's easy to be susceptible, but I think you knew something was off with this girl and you kept going with her. Not that I blame you.

only thing that i know is that a sane person should have distance herself at the first signs of an unhealthy relationship, and this has all the signs in place. i'm not hard to myself but i don't think i behave in an total AFC way. i tried to have a normal relationship and it's impossible with this girl, i mean all of them have some form of daddy issues but those were pretty extreme. i know that i have to work on my disconnection and anxiety problem, but in this relationship was like my alarms were going on all the time. i know that i have to keep my emotions more in check, and try to generally become more leading and more of a person that girls should look up to, and not try to overcome my voids with female affection, but in this case the girl wasn't good material to build on, at least i think so.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Keep striving to improve yourself.

 

[Spaz]

When a relationship fails I'm always of the opinion it's because the man has lost frame.

As such it's the man that needs fixing.

And to those of you who claims some of your ex has BPD, it's actually you that has BPD and infected your ex.

Now OP, go read the fvcking DJ Bible. You sound pathetic and like a fvcking loser blames the girl.

Man up, own up and acknowledge your mistakes, learn and improve. It can be done and your life as you knew it will change for the better.

 

[The Diver]

When a relationship fails I'm always of the opinion it's because the man has lost frame.

Hey @Spaz . In the past I hold the same opinion as you, but come to realization that It's not always man losing his frame, is the reason for a girl to leave him.(assuming he had a frame to start with) . Girls are hypergamy, and will leave you if she'll find someone "better" than you,(LMS) despite you holding your frame.

Yes, there is always room for self improvement, but no need to beat yourself up for every girls that leaving you, assuming immediately the problem is you.

This obviously not the case with this OP, he didn't had a frame to start with, so yea, in this case it's his fault, and he need to work on himself as other suggested already.

 

[Spaz]

Hey @Spaz . In the past I hold the same opinion as you, but come to realization that It's not always man losing his frame, is the reason for a girl to leave him.(assuming he had a frame to start with) . Girls are hypergamy, and will leave you if she'll find someone "better" than you,(LMS) despite you holding your frame.

Yes, there is always room for self improvement, but no need to beat yourself up for every girls that leaving you, assuming immediately the problem is you.

This obviously not the case with this OP, he didn't had a frame to start with, so yea, in this case it's his fault, and he need to work on himself as other suggested already.

Everyone has frame, it's his projection of himself to the world and to himself. Frame is what defines a man and ultimately his reputation.

In this matter, his frame was brittle as he learned PUA/Red pill ideology but didn't actually lived it, thus it didn't became part of who he is.

On hypergamy, when a woman is in love with you, hypergamy ceases to exist. As such your theory is flawed.

A man by nature is a leader, when he fails to inspire and lead his followers he then must assume responsibility. You cannot blame the followers for abandoning their leader who is in actual fact a conman posing as a mother fvcking great man.

 

[chinaski]

ok guys, it's clear that i need improving and every suggestion is well accepted. if you think that my problem is not having a frame to start with, i'll explore those topics and try to become better. if, apart from the dj bible, any of you have other links please share them with me so i can educate myself.
now, i don't want to be told that i'm right, but you really think that a healthy relationship could be extracted from this girl? it's obvious that i have my share of issues but objectively i never saw anything like this in my life an i don't think it's my job fixing broken girls.
i know it's an afc move blaming the girl, but a person that could not form an emotional bond trough physical connection cannot have a relationship, and that's all. because there is no reciprocation and that concept applies to all aspects of the relationship.
if you were in my shoes, what would you have done? i'm genuinely curious because i want to improve.

thanks

 

[Spaz]

Millions and billions of women in the world, why must you choose a broken woman?

Do you not qualify a woman?

Do you know how to qualify a woman?

Do you accept any woman because your choices are limited?

 

[chinaski]

Millions and billions of women in the world, why must you choose a broken woman?

Do you not qualify a woman?

Do you know how to qualify a woman?

Do you accept any woman because your choices are limited?

i accepted this girl because at the beginning the positives were more than the negatives. at the first month mark it was clear that i couldn’t be in a intimacy deprived relationship and in the following weeks resentment grew on on me. instead of leaving her i kept the situation until it exploded.

i don’t know how to qualify a woman. i can look for superficial traits (she has to work, she has to be economically independent, intelligent, curious, no alcohol/drugs/smoke, and obviously she has to be good looking), but i don’t know how to screen for emotional stability and giving nature, and worse i ignore red flags when i encounter them

my choices are not limited but i honestly wanted to give a try because from the start we built on honesty and respect for each other, but also from the start she tested me in a way that was too much for me to handle or indicative of an idea of relationship that isn’t mine.

 

[Spaz]

If u r a great man;

Will women not be inspired by you?

Will women not only want to follow you but also love you?

Will not other lesser men want to follow you?

You need to work on yourself 1st. Be a mother fvcking great man that other men will admire and will automatically draw in women.

Go work on your frame, everybody has frame, and yours needs a lot of strengthening.

 

[chinaski]

i found a series of posts called “the elements of frame” on reddit and i’m finding it very informative and useful,

and i found the book “emotional intelligence” because is the aspect that i want to be more focused on. all the pua knowledge cannot help if the base is weak.. and my is very weak.

i think i have to learn to manager my emotions better as a first thing, i don’t think i can have any kind of frame if i am scared of people or by girls distancing from me or testing me.

if you guys have any further advice please point me in the right direction. thanks

 

[Spaz]

PUA lines r only for noobs.

Take their PUA lines away and they all fall.

Go read the DJ bible.

To be honest I've read perhaps maybe 3 or 4 articles there, I've found it good, really good stuff.

 

[christoff522]

Everyone has frame, it's his projection of himself to the world and to himself. Frame is what defines a man and ultimately his reputation.

In this matter, his frame was brittle as he learned PUA/Red pill ideology but didn't actually lived it, thus it didn't became part of who he is.

On hypergamy, when a woman is in love with you, hypergamy ceases to exist. As such your theory is flawed.

A man by nature is a leader, when he fails to inspire and lead his followers he then must assume responsibility. You cannot blame the followers for abandoning their leader who is in actual fact a conman posing as a mother fvcking great man.

This, like I said to OP, she had no respect for him....

...because he had no respect for himself, lied, faked his 'alpha' status.

The minute he begged her for sex she would have known he was being inauthentic, but probably, she already knew, when someone is weak, they always show their weakness, its something EVERYONE here has to work on every day, reading, meditating, working out. Whatever they have to do. You can't just pick up some lines off some fake-ass guru and expect da bitchez to fall for it, and even if they do, it won't be for long, learn to realise your true awesomeness and do your best to make sure the girl isn't a nutcase and all will be good.