Fornication

[Red Legg]

My favorite book of the Bible is Ecclesiastes (read it sometime).King Solomon says over and over again "meaningless ! meaningless ! everything is meaningless !!.(He had everything,some say the richest man on earth at the time and a 1000 women harem of beautiful women).He concludes at the end of the book that after trying everything under the sun,it was all meaningless..... and the only thing doing with any meaning was worshiping God.Ecclesiastes 1.... "Meaningless ! meaningless ! " says the teacher."Utterly meaningless ! Everything is meaningless".

 

[Atom Smasher]

And that's why I always say that chasing after sex is an exercise in dissipation. What's the real reason we do it? For an ever-so-brief feeling of power and being a conqueror.

Better to spend time and energy conquering oneself.

 

[Gimple]

Bottom line...

Yahweh, or the Christian god, is still a fictitious character dreamed up by some ancient dude.

And what he supposedly says doesn't matter and has no relevance to the living of life.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

The trouble for mankind is the mystery of faith.

The trouble for God is mankind's free will, which was granted by God.

I've often thought of God as a creative force in the Universe...perhaps he granted free will as an experiment...I don't know.

Faith to me is belief without knowing. It is tough to reconcile until such point as the realization that it cannot be reconciled, but rather it must be accepted. Thank God for Jesus. That's all I'm saying.

Sadly a lot of 'Christians' deprive themselves of the collected wisdom and the culture of the Church. Why they should do so is itself a mystery. Perhaps with a vacuous view of freedom in mind, it becomes both an eccentric and egocentric view of religion... so much so, that religion itself becomes a dirty word, which is not surprising when you consider religio means to bind together.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Bottom line...

Yahweh, or the Christian god, is still a fictitious character dreamed up by some ancient dude.

And what he supposedly says doesn't matter and has no relevance to the living of life.

If God does not exist, then all things are permitted. We thought this was true until we did all things.

This not only goes to show that there is a moral reality, but that that reality is our central concern. It is no what we think we know, not our science, that is important. Rather, it is understanding what is good and true. We are compelled to recognize this in order to be free [the paradox of freedom].

 

[Bible_Belt]

Bottom line...

Yahweh, or the Christian god, is still a fictitious character dreamed up by some ancient dude.

And what he supposedly says doesn't matter and has no relevance to the living of life.

2 COR 4:4
.....the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light.....

 

[Red Legg]

2 COR 4:4
.....the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light.....

Almighty God will also "harden" the unbelievers heart (like he did Pharaoh) (Exodus 7:3-4) to make sure you are blinded and burn in Hell..

 

[Gimple]

Almighty God will also "harden" the unbelievers heart (like he did Pharaoh) (Exodus 7:3-4) to make sure you are blinded and burn in Hell..

Sounds like a very compassionate dude.

 

[Von]

Almighty God will also "harden" the unbelievers heart (like he did Pharaoh) (Exodus 7:3-4) to make sure you are blinded and burn in Hell..

I thought ththey were no hell in the B

 

[Atom Smasher]

Sounds like a very compassionate dude.

When you look at the times when God speaks of hardening hearts, he is speaking of people who have already shown him the hand and have no interest in him. God is patient but there comes a time when he says, "You've had your chances". The hardening then comes so that he can use that person to accomplish what he needs to in those who will respond positively to him.

I prefer to look at his compassion on those who genuinely want to know him, rather than his judgment on those who reject him.

We should always remember that God is constrained by his own perfectly just character. He is completely unable to just overlook the problem of sin, else he would be acting against his own character. Just as a human judge cannot overlook a person's crimes because the criminal has done good things in the past, so God cannot overlook sin. It must be dealt with. Fortunately, he provided a way for us to reconcile. Many don't accept that, because most prefer to be "God", calling their own shots and self-defining right and wrong, instead of finding out from God what is right and wrong, and answering to a higher moral authority. This is the very essence of mankind's rebellion... thinking of himself as the moral authority.

 

[Julian]

That's an interesting take. What I don't get is 1) how can He be constrained by anything if he is omnipotent, and 2) if he is omnipotent, why doesn't He know who is going to turn out bad?

E.g.,

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was, and who is to come. The Almighty.”

and

Psalm 147:5 - “Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”

He is infinite and so is His understanding. If He is and was and is to come, He is infinite, so time and space must be irrelevant to Him. Time and space encompass all events in the universe, past, present, and future. He cannot possibly be ignorant of any person's fate to commit sin. We call it free will on Earth but if God created all, He must see all end games. It's a paradox to me that God could create literally everything and then cast blame on His creation.

Because evil exists dude. Man has the personal power to reject God and turn to the dark side. Thats why its called free will. But there will be a judgement as all actions have consequences. There is no paradox in what your saying because humans have the ability to shape their destiny through good and evil in beliefs and deeds.

All the atheists on here, dont you realiE youve been brainwashed by luciferian doctrine of do what thou wilt and you think this planet, our lives and everythinf is just some random coincidence? Lol.

 

[Atom Smasher]

That's an interesting take. What I don't get is 1) how can He be constrained by anything if he is omnipotent, and 2) if he is omnipotent, why doesn't He know who is going to turn out bad?

1) For him to act against his perfect nature is a logical absurdity, therefore he cannot do that. It's like the old question, "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for him to lift?" That is a logical absurdity. He cannot create a rock that he cannot lift. Similarly, he cannot act against his sense of righteousness and justice. To do so would be to annihilate himself, which of course he cannot do.

2) He does. He knows everything from beginning to end, and he knows each man's heart. His knowledge of what men will do does not mean that he pre-ordained their actions. He lives outside of time and space. He created time and space as an "environment" or container for us to live in. Since he sees us from outside the space/time continuum, he sees the beginning and the end simultaneously.

Men are free to do whatever they want within that environment, and they are held accountable for it.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

1) For him to act against his perfect nature is a logical absurdity, therefore he cannot do that. It's like the old question, "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for him to lift?" That is a logical absurdity. He cannot create a rock that he cannot lift. Similarly, he cannot act against his sense of righteousness and justice. To do so would be to annihilate himself, which of course he cannot do.

2) He does. He knows everything from beginning to end, and he knows each man's heart. His knowledge of what men will do does not mean that he pre-ordained their actions. He lives outside of time and space. He created time and space as an "environment" or container for us to live in. Since he sees us from outside the space/time continuum, he sees the beginning and the end simultaneously.

Men are free to do whatever they want within that environment, and they are held accountable for it.

I'm not sure about this... I am OK with rational uncertainty because it is not required for faith.

The problem is when you start drawing a theological line in the sand, it will be contested all too well by opposite reasoning [such as Sampade's above].

It is the old chestnut; are God's commandment's good because He has willed them, or are they good because there is some standard beyond His will... such as his character or nature.. or essence?

I think a person of faith should leave this as a mystery... we do not have to [should not] rationalize everything. Indeed, how can we when our language and our logic are themselves but tools for finite creatures such as ourselves to interface with the world. It is quite ridiculous when you think of it for us to project our thoughts onto the Creator [and metaphysics]... it's like an ant.. in ant language... trying to describe humanity.

Oh, and the obligatory biblical reference - 'God's ways are not our ways'.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

2) He does. He knows everything from beginning to end, and he knows each man's heart. His knowledge of what men will do does not mean that he pre-ordained their actions. He lives outside of time and space. He created time and space as an "environment" or container for us to live in. Since he sees us from outside the space/time continuum, he sees the beginning and the end simultaneously.

Men are free to do whatever they want within that environment, and they are held accountable for it.

Once again some shaky theology going on here [as all theology must be... for otherwise it would do away with faith].

You seem to be thinking within a Newtonian Universe, where God has created absolute Time and Space, and then sits outside it all [that all soon slid into the story of God the Watchmaker].

1] This is just a model of the universe, and an outdated one at that. Talking about inner and outer aspects is problematic/ ideological... as are all dichotomies.

2] It seems to me the theist wants to suggest both that God is transcendent and immanent; he is also the ground of all Being.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

He is infinite and so is His understanding. If He is and was and is to come, He is infinite, so time and space must be irrelevant to Him. Time and space encompass all events in the universe, past, present, and future. He cannot possibly be ignorant of any person's fate to commit sin. We call it free will on Earth but if God created all, He must see all end games. It's a paradox to me that God could create literally everything and then cast blame on His creation.

There is definitely the idea of predestination in the bible, which comes from God's omnipotence. And so I wouldn't argue with that.

But then there is our idea of determination [buttressed by the idea of natural causation in a physical universe of laws] , which conflicts with free will. This plank is probably the one to question if a direct contradiction is felt.

The way I see it is that God's foreknowledge of everything is not deterministic [the alternative is the horror of Calvin's theology where all are predestined/ determined to damnation or salvation]. Even though He may have foreseen the choices we will make, we are still self-determining in the making of those choices. If we are made in the image of God then we would be like little gods ourselves in so far as we are creative.

Logical problems can also reflect the problem of logic - we think in either/ or terms; that reality must be this or that. But this might not necessarily apply to reality. It may be the case that there are gradations of reality... like a series of concentric circles, Being and Becoming etc. And this may accommodate different forms of knowing, and the relationship there is between knowing and believing. This way of thinking was more amenable to ancient and Christian culture and theology. Literature and poetry may be the last remnants of this way of thinking today... language is analogical and figurative. Where modern theology went wrong is in its attempt to ape rationalism with its literalism, which soon led to the Reformation... opps, that is where rationalism started.

 

[Atom Smasher]

The thing to do when one wants to know who God is, is to read his actual words, rather than speculate and theorize. I don't think in Newtonian terms, but rather biblical.

 

[corrector]

There was recently some discussion about Christianity and premarital sex. When it comes to the Bible, a lot depends on how you interpret it. I'm sure many hardcore Fundamentalist types would declare it a sin, no discussion invited. But this is a pretty good article explaining the other side:

http://www.thechristianleftblog.org/blog-home/premarital-sex-is-it-a-sin-or-not

Most of the "it's a sin" view comes from the New Testament. Many of the Old Testament patriarchs kept multiple wives and concubines.

I think it's important to remember that sex in those days was a far more serious business. We've only had effective birth control for less than a century. Pregnancy aside, the medical field wasn't what it is now, so STDs were more serious as well. Even with our modern advances, there are posters here who have had STDs or caused unwanted pregnancies. Sin or no sin, DJ or no DJ, I don't think sex is something that anyone should take lightly.

This is often the type of article that I would look at if I wanted to feel better about looking at some types of softcore porn. (i.e. if pre-maritial sex is okay, then so is lusting after women, etc....) However, the issue is that when you become a born-again believer, your spirit is changed on the inside and that spirit becomes incompatible towards illicit sex. When you unite with someone then you develop a soul-tie and the whole thing can be defiling and the sense of the presence or conviction of God on your life can be compromised.

Now, if you do not know God in the first place or not saved then what I just wrote would sound like nonsense and you'll just be looking at whether this has any good sense like having a health benefit as an unintended by-product. Of course it would because of the STDs that are around. However, even if you make yourself S.T.D. - proof (i.e. only engage in "outercourse style fornication rather than the more riskier intercourse", then there are still other consequences). No true Christian would feel comfortable engaging in a lifestyle that includes fornication (i.e. including pre-maritial sex) and then try to justify it by saying the Bible says nothing about it. The question would be more like, is this making me a good witness for Jesus to the world? What makes me, as a Christian, different than someone else in the world who is not, if I partake of the same things that other people in the world do, such as fornication, and am okay with that? Where is the convicting power of that type of Christianity?

 

[zekko]

This is often the type of article that I would look at if I wanted to feel better about looking at some types of softcore porn. (i.e. if pre-maritial sex is okay, then so is lusting after women, etc....) However, the issue is that when you become a born-again believer, your spirit is changed on the inside and that spirit becomes incompatible towards illicit sex. When you unite with someone then you develop a soul-tie and the whole thing can be defiling and the sense of the presence or conviction of God on your life can be compromised.

Now, if you do not know God in the first place or not saved then what I just wrote would sound like nonsense and you'll just be looking at whether this has any good sense like having a health benefit as an unintended by-product. Of course it would because of the STDs that are around. However, even if you make yourself S.T.D. - proof (i.e. only engage in "outercourse style fornication rather than the more riskier intercourse", then there are still other consequences). No true Christian would feel comfortable engaging in a lifestyle that includes fornication (i.e. including pre-maritial sex) and then try to justify it by saying the Bible says nothing about it.

History is full of people and cults who have made the claim "I am close to God, I know God, and this is what he wants". This is an easy thing to say because it eliminates the need to have scripture to back it up. That, along with different interpretations, is the reason why we have so many different denominations.

I would also say that not all premarital sex is created equal. I don't claim to know where the line is, but I can see that some of it may be innocent, and some of it might be perverse.

 

[Atom Smasher]

In my experience, I've found that virtually everyone I've met who adheres tightly to a denomination is basically biblically illiterate and only has a vague idea what the bible says. Their denomination becomes their authority, rather than the scripture itself.

It is very dangerous to receive spiritual (Christian) teaching without going directly to scripture and proving out what has been taught. I teach the bible in my church, and I constantly admonish everyone to check out everything I say against scripture. I do not want them to just swallow my teaching at face value because it "feels" good.

"As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
Acts 17:10-11

Ignorance of the scripture is the foundation of constant bickering and petty arguing because people tend to argue points based on vague memories of something they've heard by some pastor or other teacher.

There is a surprising consensus among those who actually read and internalize the scripture. They may differ on small side issues that God didn't fully reveal to us, but there is true consensus about the core doctrines.

The ONLY protection one has against false teaching is familiarity with the scriptures.

This is not directed at anyone personally here. It's just my observation in life.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I teach the bible in my church

I hope you have a Zondervan NIV:
https://www.amazon.com/Study-Bible-Personal-Paperback-Letter/dp/0310437334/

It's well-worth the money for the sake of the footnotes, which are very detailed and academic in nature. The few times I have been dragged to church by a girl, I can learn everything the preacher says all morning from reading one paragraph of footnotes.