Marriage and sex

[SteR]

So I was out playing golf with a buddy of mine and he randomly mentioned he wasn't on the best of terms with his wife at the moment - they've been married for ~10 years or so. Apparently since the kids were out of the house for the weekend the wife had promised him sex during that time. The moment I heard this I knew he was going to say he didn't get any, because you can't schedule passion - that just doesn't work.

Anyway it turns out after they got back from their evening out she said she was too tired and he was pretty pissed off with her. It got me thinking, how the hell can you manage this situation as a guy?

Even the other day I was back visiting the parents and my dad apparently wasn't talking to my mum. I asked her why and she very candidly said it was because he wanted sex one evening and she was too tired so turned him down. His way of dealing with it is just to withdraw attention from her (which I've seen mentioned here before - I was actually quite impressed with my dad) but it still seems slightly childish.

Since I'm not married and have never been in a significantly long relationship I don't know how I would deal with this situation. I've always figured the benefit of not being married is that there's always the threat that the guy can walk. The second you get married and the handcuffs are on, you no longer have that card to play.. which is one of the big problems I see with marriage; the woman can effectively hold the man ransom with no negative consequence, because ultimately she knows she can divorce him and he'll be the loser.

So what options does a guy have here? I should mention that my friend isn't a guy who takes care of himself. He's really let himself go physically and I can certainly understand her point of view if there's a lack of physical attraction. I don't know how much difference it'd make if he was in good shape though, as the position of power for the woman still exists.

The only way I can see of dealing with the situation is always strive to be the best and keep flirting with other women. As long as the wife sees the guy is still capable of drawing the interest of other women, she should still be fighting for her man, but I don't know how that plays out in reality.

To the married guys: How do you manage it? Or are all married men suffering from a lack of sex?

It's times like this that I'm glad I'm single...

 

[resilient]

A former married for nearly a decade guy here. Responses are below.

The moment I heard this I knew he was going to say he didn't get any, because you can't schedule passion - that just doesn't work.

I always laughed at "scheduling passion". Try to get a woman wet when she's penciled in the date and time for getting it on. Seduction doesn't like routine. lol.

...she said she was too tired...how the hell can you manage this situation as a guy?

You go to sleep or rub one out when she's not around, busy, or asleep.

...she very candidly said it was because he wanted sex one evening and she was too tired so turned him down.

Getting turned down for sex year after year by a spouse gets on the nerves and will piss any man off.

His way of dealing with it is just to withdraw attention from her (which I've seen mentioned here before - I was actually quite impressed with my dad) but it still seems slightly childish.

It's usually what a man does married or not. Better to withdraw attention then try and convince her that she wants to get it on. Guilt trips or manipulation do not create attraction only resentment between both sexes.

the woman can effectively hold the man ransom with no negative consequence because ultimately she knows she can divorce him and he'll be the loser.

Which is why you see so many men don't want to marry, that, and the damage that happens to him in divorce proceedings.

So what options does a guy have here?

For the married man? Keep improving SMV status regardless of marital status. Remeber, comfort zone = death. Getting lazy on all counts will decrease attraction and set the man back from improving his life with or without a woman in it.

I should mention that my friend isn't a guy who takes care of himself. He's really let himself go physically and I can certainly understand her point of view if there's a lack of physical attraction.

That's on him.

I don't know how much difference it'd make if he was in good shape though, as the position of power for the woman still exists.

Maintain attraction. Dad bod is a joke.

The only way I can see of dealing with the situation is always striving to be the best and keep flirting with other women. As long as the wife sees the guy is still capable of drawing the interest of other women, she should still be fighting for her man, but I don't know how that plays out in reality.

Correct. Jealousy cuts both ways.

To the married guys: How do you manage it? Or are all married men suffering from a lack of sex?

It was hell. I suffered for years. It felt like emotional & physical abuse to be turned down throughout all those years. Not all marriages were like mine though. There are exceptions to the rule. Mutually happily people who bring the equal amount to the table in status tend to be happier. I wasn't perfect myself. I gave up on my career when I was married while her career skyrocketed. It wasn't until divorce did I turn the ship around and start to lead as a man. In life, better late than never.

It's times like this that I'm glad I'm single...

Yep.

 

[SteR]

A former married for nearly a decade guy here. Responses are below.

I always laughed at "scheduling passion". Try to get a woman wet when she's penciled in the date and time for getting it on. Seduction doesn't like routine. lol.
You go to sleep or rub one out when she's not around, busy, or asleep.

This reminds me of that scene in American Beauty - one of the most depressing I've seen in any movie, ha.

Getting turned down for sex year after year by a spouse gets on the nerves and will piss any man off.
It's usually what a man does married or not. Better to withdraw attention then try and convince her that she wants to get it on. Guilt trips or manipulation do not create attraction only resentment between both sexes.

Well this is where I find my parents relationship quite rare. When I was chatting with my mother, she said when myself and my siblings were younger she used to be so tired but would still make the effort to have sex with my dad when he wanted it - I doubt you'd find many girls willing to do that in this day and age (I must admit it was a strange conversation to be having).

It was hell. I suffered for years. It felt like emotional & physical abuse to be turned down throughout those years.

I've heard this from so many guys before. I remember a poster here saying he never felt more lonely than when in these situations.. even more so than being literally alone.

I hate it because like I said, my parents are the best example of a working marriage that I've seen. They're probably one of 2-3 that I know that are still together.. and even the other ones are pretty rocky. Obviously having this example in my life is great as it shows it can work, but I have such little faith that women like this even exist in the modern generation, especially in western society.

 

[ubercat]

Really it's for raising kids. Cohabitation is always a killer. So much easier to introduce a little competition anxiety. Best pre-nup u can afford and yr assets held thru an offshore trust. Then make your boundaries clear. We have a doctor friend who s wife likes to rule the roost. G/f tried to drag me into their drama the other night. I said I don't know why he puts up with that and then went back to my book.

 

[SteR]

Really it's for raising kids. Cohabitation is always a killer. So much easier to introduce a little competition anxiety. Best pre-nup u can afford and yr assets held thru an offshore trust. Then make your boundaries clear. We have a doctor friend who s wife likes to rule the roost. G/f tried to drag me into their drama the other night. I said I don't know why he puts up with that and then went back to my book.

But that's exactly the point: He has to put up with it because of the threat of divorce. That's why I'm against modern marriage.

 

[Cambridge]

But that's exactly the point: He has to put up with it because of the threat of divorce. That's why I'm against modern marriage.

No, he doesn't. Most men are slaves to their sex drive and until you overcome it, women will rule you.

I haven't tested my present theory which is...

Sexual intimacy flows naturally in LTRs when...

• They've worked a day of good work (cleaning a house, kids, decorating, whatever their gift is)
• Had a masculine force to pitch in with non feminine work
• Have something to look forward too socially in the future (friends, events)
• Have something to look forward to entertainment-wise in the future (vacation, play)
• Sustained low levels of cortisone (think budget, planning, retirement)
• Room enough in an evening to unwind and share a glass of wine, laugh and get a walk in
• Ongoing flirting, platitudes and escalating sexually in a framework of sincerity
• You've transcend pvssy tunnel vision to weaving a masterpiece with each passing day.
• You're in a relationship where the woman has relegated to you as an alpha.
• You are at least 1+ levels above your partner (socio-economically-intellecually)

This theory is ironic to me that to achieve with regularity a high-pleasure activity, like sex, so many things have to flow naturally and in order. Obviously achieving this takes a little more than a male sex drive. Also, this is highly idealistic, is it not?

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

The baby boomer generation had a different mentality. I overheard my step-mother's conversation to her daughter once. She was saying you just have to be a 'starfish' sometimes. Some wisdom in that.... I guess.

 

[BeExcellent]

you can't schedule passion - that just doesn't work.

It doesn't work. But I think there is another option. During the 15 years that my ex husband and I were married he turned me down for sex MORE than I turned him down. I almost never turned him down. And sometimes when he turned me down at first I could persuade him to be in the mood through touch and closeness etc. We had a great sex life. Why is that? I was just as pleased with the idea that I got to have sex on tap as he was. He was great in bed and the intimacy was amazing. There are days I really miss it frankly, and it's a large part of the reason I stayed in the marriage for so many years despite all the other idiotic things that were going on. Well the great sex and the children. Can't discount them. But I digress.

It got me thinking, how the hell can you manage this situation as a guy?

If it's a regular occurrence you can't. You've utterly lost frame and checked your balls into the Hotel California never to be heard from again.

There are several things that could be the root cause of such a situation. But at the core of it the problem is always the same: She does NOT enjoy sex with her husband. If she did she would be all over him every chance she got and open to his advances with the rare exception of not feeling well or genuine exhaustion.

Here are several examples of evidence of this

1. Understand that your buddy and men like your buddy may have knowingly traded their sexuality for something else that they thought their wife had to offer. Maybe the wife has a rich family, maybe the wife is a stellar mother, maybe the wife was the "good" girl who his family adored, who knows. Maybe the wife offers something else that the husband valued (or thought he valued) enough that he rationalized having sexual rationing. Chances are that if he is really honest with himself he knew before he married her that this was going to be an issue. Unless he has ballooned up to 300 pounds or something since the wedding, that's a different animal. In that case he's simply become gross and who wants to fvck gross?

I've always thought women who schedule sex, ration sex or with hold sex are exceedingly stupid. There is no faster way to drive a man toward an affair (since the woman is neglecting his sexual needs - and make no mistake it is a NEED men have thanks to testosterone), there is no faster way to build resentment in a man and no faster way to ruin intimacy. There is no faster way to get a man thinking he wants a divorce, even though he may feel hamstrung if he pursues one. There are men who simply become serial philanderers for this reason. It is a stupid woman who risks her health vis a vis exposure to STD/STIs or risks her husband getting another woman pregnant or him falling in love with someone else because she finds sex boring or a chore. If she married you she is SUPPOSED to fvck you. And not because it's Wednesday at 9pm.

2.Some men are terrible in bed. So it is in a man's best interest to become a good lover. How do you become a good lover? You genuinely care about the other person's experience. You learn how to please your woman, you learn a woman's body, you don't just pound away until you get your rocks off and call it good. So I think there are women who are married to terrible lovers who really do NOT enjoy the sex and so they avoid it.

3. The wife was never sexually attracted to the man and so she doesn't enjoy sex or even the IDEA of sex with him. This is an issue when the woman marries to satisfy some agenda she has, be it securing resources and provisioning, or settling for a man who if he weren't (fill in whatever criteria the woman traded sex for here) then no way would she be with him at all. These situations are horrible for a man and rightly invoke disgust. This type of woman is a user through and through. But men get hooked on the beauty or hotness or sex before the marriage and then the spicket gets turned off after the wedding. Think Sharon Stone's character in Casino. Awful.

4. Maybe she is seriously sexual repressed, prudish, frigid, and has a deep shame about her sexuality. This is an issue you cannot solve easily unless you can seduce her deeply. If the guy isn't Casanova he needs to get her into therapy yesterday. Sometimes this has basis in past abuse, sometimes in religious shame or deep embarrassment about her body or body image. This requires professional intervention (or get a different girl - I vote for that.)

To avoid a situation like your buddy's I think you have to be upfront about what your sexual needs are as your are in a LTR, particularly if you are considering marriage, and you need to find a woman who really enjoys sex with you. And you need to listen to what she says and observe what she does, how does she react if you tell her the story of your golfing buddy? Would she say "Well I can understand that...life is really hectic" or would she say "Wow. That wife is an i diot." You want the latter.

You also want to be a good lover, as this will encourage her desire for you, and for Pete's sake keep yourself up. Losers and slobs and obesity are NOT sexy. Well my loser actually was sexy, until he wasn't anymore. Keep fit, keep sharp and keep improving in your life. Your woman will want to KEEP YOU.

My mother-in-law, who was a devoutly religious virgin when she married was very proud of her sex life with her husband. She really enjoyed pleasing him, sending him to sleep and to work "with a smile on his face." She would be the first one to tell you how important a man's sexuality is. My grandmother was also of this opinion, she was happily married to her high school sweetheart for over 2 decades before she was widowed. Some years later she remarried and remained married until she was widowed again. She always spoke about how a man is a MAN and it is the wife's role to be sure he feels like a MAN. She meant by pleasing him sexually. She also meant by being a good housewife, cook and mother, but she always said that the sexual chemistry was the glue in a marriage and that a wise wife is always her husband's lover before she was anything else. You almost never hear women talk about that in today's dating world. If you can find a woman with these sort of beliefs from her upbringing you are ahead of the masses in mate selection.

You mom sounds like a pretty wise woman. Ask her or your dad about the situation with your buddy. You might get some additional insight into how you find a good marriage prospect...Oh, and if you think you find a good marriage prospect? Let your mom & dad interview her and be sure this is a topic they inquire about. You won't be able to be as objective as they will.

So those are some thoughts.

 

[SteR]

Unless he has ballooned up to 300 pounds or something since the wedding, that's a different animal. In that case he's simply become gross and who wants to fvck gross?

Well this was my thinking. He doesn't take care of himself but he's been pretty consistent with this his whole life. The wife is clearly the more attractive of the 2 so I'm inclined to agree with you on this.

My mother-in-law, who was a devoutly religious virgin when she married was very proud of her sex life with her husband. She really enjoyed pleasing him, sending him to sleep and to work "with a smile on his face." She would be the first one to tell you how important a man's sexuality is. My grandmother was also of this opinion, she was happily married to her high school sweetheart for over 2 decades before she was widowed. Some years later she remarried and remained married until she was widowed again. She always spoke about how a man is a MAN and it is the wife's role to be sure he feels like a MAN. She meant by pleasing him sexually. She also meant by being a good housewife, cook and mother, but she always said that the sexual chemistry was the glue in a marriage and that a wise wife is always her husband's lover before she was anything else. You almost never hear women talk about that in today's dating world. If you can find a woman with these sort of beliefs from her upbringing you are ahead of the masses in mate selection.

And this is where I feel the problem lies: Women of this generation just aren't brought up like this any more (and neither are men fulfilling their roles). Having said that, some exist because I've encountered them before, but the vast majority of people seem to think the universe revolves around them and no effort needs to be put in on their end.

You mom sounds like a pretty wise woman. Ask her or your dad about the situation with your buddy. You might get some additional insight into how you find a good marriage prospect...Oh, and if you think you find a good marriage prospect? Let your mom & dad interview her and be sure this is a topic they inquire about. You won't be able to be as objective as they will.

So those are some thoughts.

Haha I've had this discussion with them before - they're as stumped as I am. Although I'm a firm believer that like attracts like. I've encountered the types I want before.. and I never really had to do anything - we just gravitated towards each other.

Anyway thanks for the input, I agree with everything you said.

 

[ubercat]

SteR being old I ve done most things including divorce. No really u define what u put up with. And I freely admit I had as many failings as she did. Setting foot on the DJ path for me initially was about being worthy of a good woman. And then of course I learnt that good woman are as much created as found. And all you can do on the way in is screen out the total schitz. Assuming he didn't just marry some Hell b**** it's turned to crap because he isn't doing the work. Now I don't agree with the poster above giant list of things you need to do to appease your woman before you get the poon. However as with everything else in life there's a certain level of minimum relationship maintenance you have to do

 

[BeExcellent]

SteR being old I ve done most things including divorce. No really u define what u put up with. And I freely admit I had as many failings as she did. Setting foot on the DJ path for me initially was about being worthy of a good woman. And then of course I learnt that good woman are as much created as found. And all you can do on the way in is screen out the total schitz. Assuming he didn't just marry some Hell b**** it's turned to crap because he isn't doing the work. Now I don't agree with the poster above giant list of things you need to do to appease your woman before you get the poon. However as with everything else in life there's a certain level of minimum relationship maintenance you have to do

I strongly agree with @ubercat on this one. Walking around looking for the perfect gal can be a self defeating proposition, particularly as you get beyond the schooling years. But if you are leading and keeping yourself maturing and progressing then you are providing a framework and an example for her to follow. Complacency will kill a relationship. If you do not get complacent or lazy then you can take a more accurate look at whether or not she is a woman who will follow you. If you can lead and she can follow things won't be perfect but you'll be way ahead of the game. Your parents appear from what you have said to be a good example of this in action.

 

[resilient]

...if you are leading and keeping yourself maturing and progressing then you are providing a framework and an example for her to follow. Complacency will kill a relationship. If you do not get complacent or lazy then you can take a more accurate look at whether or not she is a woman who will follow you. If you can lead and she can follow things won't be perfect but you'll be way ahead of the game.

Agree. The good thing about leading by example is you create a framework for self-improvement. That way whether she decides to step in line like a good soldier or not, the ship is on a stable course and creates a stable environment for future opportunities to benefit that consistent discipline that benefits the Don Juan life.

Those safety feels are attractive for LTR and marriage prospects from a female's perspective. The best thing too is if things don't work out in LTR, engaged, or marriage and ultimately a separation/divorce the pain isn't felt as deep.

Like a cat, you bounce back into life and carry on (hopefully with less financial or biological baggage though).

 

[highSpeed]

Agree. The good thing about leading by example is you create a framework for self-improvement. That way whether she decides to step in line like a good soldier or not, the ship is on a stable course and creates a stable environment for future opportunities to benefit that consistent discipline that benefits the Don Juan life.

Those safety feels are attractive for LTR and marriage prospects from a female's perspective. The best thing too is if things don't work out in LTR, engaged, or marriage and ultimately a separation/divorce the pain isn't felt as deep.

Like a cat, you bounce back into life and carry on (hopefully with less financial or biological baggage though).

I have to strongly disagree resilient. Sorry, but all the leading and frame stuff, I think it is simply nonsense. Talk about frame and leadership, that's all fine and well but once you sign the marriage contract, the balance of power shifts in her behavior. She has the reigns of power. You can bluster and try to push and pull, heck, maybe she's stupid enough that you can mentally game her but more often than not, you've now got an unwilling participant who knows that they have the power and control largely. She thinks all she has to do is show up with her vag and the rest is all on you, that's when she decides she wants to put out. After all the kid stuff is done, if she works all of her work stuff is done and then when whatever house stuff that the two of you do, maybe, just maybe, if you're super lucky, she will grace you with some v-time. And you think this is someone who you are going to keep "frame" with and lead?

Look JUST DON'T DO IT!!!! Don't get married, for the love of god, don't get married. Don't be stupid enough to get locked into a marriage where you have no pre-nup. Don't be stupid enough to ever accept, for one moment, someone shutting you off from sex. Your wife is supposed to want to have sex with you, unless you are the biggest ahole in the world. Unless you are abusing her. Unless you are not providing for your family. The hell with all of this, maybe he put on some weight. Wanna bet that it is way more common for women to put on way more weight in a marriage than a guy? And yet, if you say, "Gee, I'm not attracted to my wife anymore because she put on weight", you will be savaged by polite society. Love her curves, love her body, no matter what it looks like. Guess that logic doesn't go both ways does it. And this is an institution that you're supposed to want to get into? Only if you need your head examined, and maybe not even then.

 

[backbreaker]

i've been married for 4 years now. **** lol. anyway. one thing i have learned that depsite what everyone will say, it's never a good idea to not remind your spouse that other women want to **** you. not verbally. and i'm not saying cheat. but some
thot wants to grind on your **** at a party, let her lol. some woman comes up to you and wants to talk to you don't brush her off as oh you can't tlak to me at all be friendly.


i've never technically cheated on my wife and never will but i don't turn awjay attention from the opposite sex either.

i'm not saying i do it everyday. but remind your spouse that you're wanted by others. if you ain't wanted by others than we got another problem to deal with

 

[mrgoodstuff]

i've been married for 4 years now. **** lol. anyway. one thing i have learned that depsite what everyone will say, it's never a good idea to not remind your spouse that other women want to **** you. not verbally. and i'm not saying cheat. but some
thot wants to grind on your **** at a party, let her lol. some woman comes up to you and wants to talk to you don't brush her off as oh you can't tlak to me at all be friendly.


i've never technically cheated on my wife and never will but i don't turn awjay attention from the opposite sex either.

i'm not saying i do it everyday. but remind your spouse that you're wanted by others. if you ain't wanted by others than we got another problem to deal with

Yeah if she doesn't feel others want you you'll most likely end up sexless and possibly cucked. She needs to feel that feedback without your mouth saying it.

 

[AJ84]

Yeah if she doesn't feel others want you you'll most likely end up sexless and possibly cucked. She needs to feel that feedback without your mouth saying it.

Yeah it can be a turn on when you know your spouse is attractive to other people but it's you they are going home with. This is why it's so important to not let youself go physically, which a lot of married people do. They put on comfort fat and stop making efforts to look good for their husband or wife. I mean if we are expected to be monogamous in a marriage then for f**k sakes maintain attractiveness. Doesn't mean we have to try to keep a 20 yr old body and face because age is going to change us no matter what but stay in shape, groom and make an effort to look the best we can as we get older. Both people, not just the wife. There is nothing sadder than seeing an attractive and put together person with a slob spouse who used to look good but gave up half way into the marriage.

 

[resilient]

Yeah it can be a turn on when you know your spouse is attractive to other people but it's you they are going home with. This is why it's so important to not let yourself go physically, which a lot of married people do.

My ex-wife used reverse psychology for "attraction". She got insecure that if I got too ripped, she would lose attraction toward me. "I don't like big muscles on a guy". When I looked at a photo album of an ex that was ripped she had oneitis over the guy after he pumped and dumped her a few times. She went back to him every single time hoping he would be exclusive with her. Lol.

Funny, I was more motivated to exercise hard whenever she traveled for work (typically 2-4 weeks). I worked out like a disciplined ninja. It was funny to watch her reaction when she got back and I was in a little better shape. Meanwhile, she let herself go.

She actually tried to scoop off food from her plate onto mine often because I portion controlled to maintain weight. Oh, and not to mention baking sweets often and inviting friends over often for parties with drinks, big BBQ, and desserts.

 

[Cambridge]

My ex-wife used reverse psychology for "attraction". She got insecure that if I got too ripped, she would lose attraction toward me. "I don't like big muscles on a guy". When I looked at a photo album of an ex that was ripped she had oneitis over the guy after he pumped and dumped her a few times. She went back to him every single time hoping he would be exclusive with her. Lol.

Doesn't everyone use characteristics from failed priors to discover red flags in the present relationship? I know I do. Sometimes intelligently, other times not. (exhibit afbb)

I wonder why improvement of your physique failed to foster an increase of affection from your ex.

 

[resilient]

I wonder why the improvement of your physique failed to foster an increase of affection from your ex.

The one thing I could think of was she feared losing control over me if I bulked up and transformed from BB to AF. Abandonment triggers, I could cheat more easily (increased attraction = increased options)... Less desire for things to work out in the relationship.

Remember, women control us with their emotions because they can't control us, men, physically. The weaker we are from a physical standpoint, the more power they feel they have over us psychologically. At least... this has been my experience with intimate relationships throughout my life.

Have you noticed the more ripped and cut a guy gets, the fewer fvcks he gives?

The answer is that he has increased t-levels and leads from a place of quiet confidence. That's the route I'm on now...

 

[mrgoodstuff]

The one thing I could think of was she feared losing control over me if I bulked up and transformed from BB to AF. Abandonment triggers, I could cheat more easily (increased attraction = increased options)... Less desire for things to work out in the relationship.

Remember, women control us with their emotions because they can't control us, men, physically. The weaker we are from a physical standpoint, the more power they feel they have over us psychologically. At least... this has been my experience with intimate relationships throughout my life.

Have you noticed the more ripped and cut a guy gets, the fewer fvcks he gives?

The answer is that he has increased t-levels and leads from a place of quiet confidence. That's the route I'm on now...

Body fat is estrogenic. It's true.