Fornication

[backbreaker]

that is why i'm not cathloic

1Now there were also false prophets among thepeople, just as there will be false teachers among you.They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swiftdestruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed.…In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with talesthey have concocted. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does notsleep. 4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them in chains to be held in gloomy darkness until their judgment;…

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

I don't fully understand the Abrahamaic religions. Why exactly are all of us punished for something Adam and Eve did? They messed it all up, and the rest of us get punished for it? How is God supposed to be so great and merciful if he is punishing all of us for something some other two retards did? We were essentially meant to go to hell because of them, even though it was not our fault. But if we were born in heaven, how does God know that we would have made the same mistake? And why should he judge us for wanting to have sex if he made all of us that way? I thought that a crazy person, say an autistic kid or someone with Down syndrome, weren't to be judged for their actions because they can't help it since they were made that way. Yet the rest of us 'normal' people are told by some dude who we have no real proof of existence that having sex is a sin even though he made us to want to have sex. What the heck is that about?

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Yes, it is complicated. The good news is you have plenty of time to get acquainted with two millennia of thought on the subject matter.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I don't fully understand the Abrahamaic religions. Why exactly are all of us punished for something Adam and Eve did? They messed it all up, and the rest of us get punished for it? How is God supposed to be so great and merciful if he is punishing all of us for something some other two retards did? We were essentially meant to go to hell because of them, even though it was not our fault. But if we were born in heaven, how does God know that we would have made the same mistake? And why should he judge us for wanting to have sex if he made all of us that way? I thought that a crazy person, say an autistic kid or someone with Down syndrome, weren't to be judged for their actions because they can't help it since they were made that way. Yet the rest of us 'normal' people are told by some dude who we have no real proof of existence that having sex is a sin even though he made us to want to have sex. What the heck is that about?

A biblical perspective:

It's not that we're being punished for what Adam and Eve did. It's that their sin changed humankind's relationship with God, and all of their descendants inherited that sinful nature.

All of our appetites and urges have been corrupted... Hence we battle drives that can be self-destructive and destructive towards others.

God is in a position where he MUST deal with sin. He wouldn't be a just God if He didn't. We as a society MUST deal with murderers, thieves, etc. Most of those people have compulsions that they cannot help nor understand, yet we still lock them up because we must still hold them accountable for their actions even though they have proclivities and compulsions.

In the same way, God has to deal with our own compulsions and proclivities, most of which are against His sense of justice and goodness.

In view of the fact that we are absolutely helpless to do anything about our predicament, Jesus came here to take the punishment that we have earned upon himself. Those who understand that they will never be able to earn their way into heaven will be driven to trust in him to take that punishment for us. This satisfies God's just nature and allows Him to restore a proper relationship with Him. The debt has been paid.

If we saw a human judge let everybody in his courtroom go free, we would consider that judge to be evil. In much the same way, God would be evil if He let everybody off the hook for transgressing His laws. In order to remain just and yet still provide us helpless humans a way out, He devised His own method for forgiveness. By our accepting that gift of forgiveness, we are restored to fellowship with God.

Make no mistake... God knows we are helpless to change. Our appetites and drives are deeply rooted in us. But according to scripture, He has provided a way around the problem, for anyone who will accept it.

That would be a biblical explanation of the problem of our appetites and drives being out of control, and our being helpless to change them. We can only change them to a tiny degree without help from above.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

A biblical perspective:

It's not that we're being punished for what Adam and Eve did. It's that their sin changed humankind's relationship with God, and all of their descendants inherited that sinful nature.

All of our appetites and urges have been corrupted... Hence we battle drives that can be self-destructive and destructive towards others.

God is in a position where he MUST deal with sin. He wouldn't be a just God if He didn't. We as a society MUST deal with murderers, thieves, etc. Most of those people have compulsions that they cannot help nor understand, yet we still lock them up because we must still hold them accountable for their actions even though they have proclivities and compulsions.

In the same way, God has to deal with our own compulsions and proclivities, most of which are against His sense of justice and goodness.

In view of the fact that we are absolutely helpless to do anything about our predicament, Jesus came here to take the punishment that we have earned upon himself. Those who understand that they will never be able to earn their way into heaven will be driven to trust in him to take that punishment for us. This satisfies God's just nature and allows Him to restore a proper relationship with Him. The debt has been paid.

If we saw a human judge let everybody in his courtroom go free, we would consider that judge to be evil. In much the same way, God would be evil if He let everybody off the hook for transgressing His laws. In order to remain just and yet still provide us helpless humans a way out, He devised His own method for forgiveness. By our accepting that gift of forgiveness, we are restored to fellowship with God.

Make no mistake... God knows we are helpless to change. Our appetites and drives are deeply rooted in us. But according to scripture, He has provided a way around the problem, for anyone who will accept it.

That would be a biblical explanation of the problem of our appetites and drives being out of control, and our being helpless to change them. We can only change them to a tiny degree without help from above.

The thing is though, our appetites and urges weren't corrupted because what happened allegedly happened before we ever even existed. And if they did, that would mean God would have MADE us into committing sins so that we were supposed to go to hell from the beginning. That's the part I'm having trouble understanding. Why make us in the first place if we are destined to sin? I understand that in Christianity, Jesus died to for our sins. Some Christians say that committing suicide goes against this and will not be granted eternal life. Yet when Jesus does it, he saves all of mankind? There's a missing link here I'm failing to comprehend. Maybe I'm misinterpreting. But also, why should a man have to kill himself for something that was not his fault? Even in our more 'primitive' justice system, if a man unjustly steals or kills someone, you don't just kill his kids and grandkids or put hem in prison and set this guy free like they did Adam and Eve. That sounds ridiculous to me.

I get that God has to deal with all of our sins. But so do we. In fact, we experience it first hand. If God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then He could not have dealt with any of the injustice in the world except that of which Jesus had to go through.

I'm sorry if his is cynical here, but I'm just having trouble with religion in general right now.

 

[Gimple]

@ImTheDoubleGreatest!

I suspect your rationalizing is supposed to result in the conclusion that Christianity is a fairy tale for adults. And it should. For rational people, that is the result that is produced. However, believers are different. They'll just try to give contrived explanations, no matter how far-fetched, for any presented objections, or they'll dance around arguments they don't want to confront because it's obvious they hold merit, as we've seen here. Nobody's addressed the fact that the Bible says we'll go to hell if we fornicate, even though I've brought it up twice. Yet learning to fornicate is basically the point of this forum.

That said, atheism is red pill thinking; religion is blue pill. Just like betas make themselves slaves to women, religious people make themselves slaves to an imaginary authority figure invented by some ancient guys who wanted to control peoples' minds, and thus their behavior. Betas and religious people are very alike; they're not the ones dictating their own conduct. Betas conform their behavior to suit women. Religious people conform their behavior to appease a myth. I don't know which is worse.

But I suspect you already know all this.

 

[zekko]

Nobody's addressed the fact that the Bible says we'll go to hell if we fornicate, even though I've brought it up twice. Yet learning to fornicate is basically the point of this forum.

That said, atheism is red pill thinking; religion is blue pill.

You have every right to be an atheist. But being an atheist, I don't think you can credibly tell people of faith what it is that they believe. As for your questions, there are answers in the original article and in people's posts in this thread, if you paid attention.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

@ImTheDoubleGreatest!

I suspect your rationalizing is supposed to result in the conclusion that Christianity is a fairy tale for adults. And it should. For rational people, that is the result that is produced. However, believers are different. They'll just try to give contrived explanations, no matter how far-fetched, for any presented objections, or they'll dance around arguments they don't want to confront because it's obvious they hold merit, as we've seen here. Nobody's addressed the fact that the Bible says we'll go to hell if we fornicate, even though I've brought it up twice. Yet learning to fornicate is basically the point of this forum.

That said, atheism is red pill thinking; religion is blue pill. Just like betas make themselves slaves to women, religious people make themselves slaves to an imaginary authority figure invented by some ancient guys who wanted to control peoples' minds, and thus their behavior. Betas and religious people are very alike; they're not the ones dictating their own conduct. Betas conform their behavior to suit women. Religious people conform their behavior to appease a myth. I don't know which is worse.

But I suspect you already know all this.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I can't call myself an atheist, more so a deist. The reason is because there's far too many people in this world who have believed in God, and the idea of a divine entity has existed since the beginning of our existence. It does hold SOME merit, to say it doesn't is foolish because that would be ignoring maybe hundreds of thousands of years of history and prehistory. Plus, some people so strongly hold their beliefs towards a certain religion not because of being raised that way, but because of events that happened in their life that seemed far too coincidental. My dad is one of those people, so I can understand why people would kill another person over religion. It is a coping mechanism for many people too, which can help you survive. If you are going through a really hard time, then a faith in something greater and that there is something more helps you out. It could be your instincts forcing you to latch on to something so that you can survive (some people will commit suicide if life gets too rough). I don't think that having sex is against Christianity or most religions, I think if it's just premarital that they believe it is. I don't think that you can have more than one wife either even though it is still natural for men to. I know that Mormons and Muslims can though, so there probably is some kind of truth somewhere in those I guess. I know that way back when, men would get jealous if another man tried taking their partner(s), meaning that there was a pact between men and their partners. This was before the dynamic of marriage took place.

There is SOME truth of it. But there's some missing links here that I question. I cannot believe in blind faith like some people can. If God made us as logical creatures, then He should be able to accept us questioning His existence and authority until we have proof. After all, this is how we are. And if God is all-knowing, then He should know this.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

@ImTheDoubleGreatest!

I suspect your rationalizing is supposed to result in the conclusion that Christianity is a fairy tale for adults. And it should. For rational people, that is the result that is produced. However, believers are different. They'll just try to give contrived explanations, no matter how far-fetched, for any presented objections, or they'll dance around arguments they don't want to confront because it's obvious they hold merit, as we've seen here. Nobody's addressed the fact that the Bible says we'll go to hell if we fornicate, even though I've brought it up twice. Yet learning to fornicate is basically the point of this forum.

That said, atheism is red pill thinking; religion is blue pill. Just like betas make themselves slaves to women, religious people make themselves slaves to an imaginary authority figure invented by some ancient guys who wanted to control peoples' minds, and thus their behavior. Betas and religious people are very alike; they're not the ones dictating their own conduct. Betas conform their behavior to suit women. Religious people conform their behavior to appease a myth. I don't know which is worse.

But I suspect you already know all this.

I suspect it comes down to whether you put the emphasis on reason or on freedom.

Those that put the emphasis on reason incline towards seeing some intelligible principle undergirding this world... and not just mechanics. This kind of rationality leads naturally to the idea of a divine mind, cosmos not chaos.

When the emphasis is put on freedom, it tends eventually towards freedom from reason itself. And then one is just left with the irrational instincts and urges as somehow more real than our rational self. Reason, in so far as it survives, is from the view from nowhere, and completely dislocated from our real life [virtue/ self-control is lost] and the world [it is an economic machine]. It then becomes ideology. And what a strange view of 'freedom' this is.

 

[Gimple]

You have every right to be an atheist. But being an atheist, I don't think you can credibly tell people of faith what it is that they believe.

I'll say it again. Atheism is red-pill thinking; religion is blue pill. It's objective. I'm not telling anyone what to believe. I'm just revealing what kind of thoughts those beliefs actually are. Just like you can tell that a guy has blue pill thinking because he buys a girl he's interested flowers or something, you can tell a guy has blue pill thinking if he believes in a god. I mean, did you know there's been something like 10,000 gods people have believed in throughout history, and the funny thing is everyone thinks their's is the "real" one. But the odds aren't in your favor if you're a religious person. For yours to be the right one, you have to beat out 9,999 competitors (assuming there can't be more than one god).

As for your questions, there are answers in the original article and in people's posts in this thread, if you paid attention.

No one's even asked me where the verse is that I'm referring to, where Paul says people who fornicate will go to hell. Instead, we just have people interpreting the Bible to coincide with their own agenda, to fornicate, regardless of the what the Bible actually says about it.

I've noticed that most Christians don't take Christianity seriously. They just pay lip-service to it, but don't actually practice what the scriptures instruct and command a follower to do. I have no respect for people like that. However, I do have respect for the believers who earnestly try to figure out what the Bible says about living the "moral" life, and do their damnest to follow those instructions.

A true Christian would boycott this site immediately -- unless his intention was to improve his ability to find a wife and fulfill her needs as a woman.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I'll say it again. Atheism is red-pill thinking; religion is blue pill. It's objective. I'm not telling anyone what to believe. I'm just revealing what kind of thoughts those beliefs actually are. Just like you can tell that a guy has blue pill thinking because he buys a girl he's interested flowers or something, you can tell a guy has blue pill thinking if he believes in a god. I mean, did you know there's been something like 10,000 gods people have believed in throughout history, and the funny thing is everyone thinks their's is the "real" one. But the odds aren't in your favor if you're a religious person. For yours to be the right one, you have to beat out 9,999 competitors (assuming there can't be more than one god).


No one's even asked me where the verse is that I'm referring to, where Paul says people who fornicate will go to hell. Instead, we just have people interpreting the Bible to coincide with their own agenda, to fornicate, regardless of the what the Bible actually says about it.

I've noticed that most Christians don't take Christianity seriously. They just pay lip-service to it, but don't actually practice what the scriptures instruct and command a follower to do. I have no respect for people like that. However, I do have respect for the believers who earnestly try to figure out what the Bible says about living the "moral" life, and do their damnest to follow those instructions.

A true Christian would boycott this site immediately -- unless his intention was to improve his ability to find a wife and fulfill her needs as a woman.

You miss the point Sir. Why is it that 10,000 gods have been believed in? That is the marvel, and would suggest they were all aiming at something.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

No one's even asked me where the verse is that I'm referring to, where Paul says people who fornicate will go to hell. Instead, we just have people interpreting the Bible to coincide with their own agenda, to fornicate, regardless of the what the Bible actually says about it.

I've noticed that most Christians don't take Christianity seriously. They just pay lip-service to it, but don't actually practice what the scriptures instruct and command a follower to do. I have no respect for people like that. However, I do have respect for the believers who earnestly try to figure out what the Bible says about living the "moral" life, and do their damnest to follow those instructions.

A true Christian would boycott this site immediately -- unless his intention was to improve his ability to find a wife and fulfill her needs as a woman.

Yes, fornication is wrong. And yes, there is a tendency to turn religion into a thin veneer.

Religio... to be bound... it were the ropes that secured the boats at the wharves I believe. And yet, all are obsessed with 'freedom'.

 

[zekko]

I'll say it again. Atheism is red-pill thinking; religion is blue pill. It's objective.

The metaphorical red pill refers to seeing reality as it really is. If you want to debate whether or not God exists, there are plenty of forums devoted exclusively to that. But let me save you some time: Those conversations usually end up being circular, because no one can prove or disprove to someone else whether or not God exists. That is a decision each person has to make for themselves. Yet we are supposed to believe that you have figured out the true nature of reality, and should just believe you when you declare that there is no God. I know you are likely just trolling here, but I will take a pass.

A true Christian would boycott this site immediately -- unless his intention was to improve his ability to find a wife and fulfill her needs as a woman.

You don't even get to tell other atheists what to do, let alone people of faith. I come here to talk about girls and other men's issues.

Again you are hung up on this "fornication" thing. You have to remember that the Bible was not written in English, but was translated from ancient Hebrew and Greek languages. Therefore, if you want to seek a deeper meaning of what was being said, you have to look at the original text. Here's another article on the actual meaning of those words, but I don't expect you to read it or educate yourself, since you didn't read the last one:

https://yrm.org/qa17-1/

In any case, what you are talking about is the Law, and Christians live under Grace, not under Law. But you apparently think you are such an expert on what Christians should be thinking and doing, you should know that.

 

[Gimple]

The metaphorical red pill refers to seeing reality as it really is.

Exactly. And the reality is that Yahweh is a fictional character created by some ancient guys who told a bunch of stories about him. That's why lack of religion is red pill. It acknowledges that all gods (so far) have been inventions of man, which is a truth that can be tough for some to stomach.

Again you are hung up on this "fornication" thing. You have to remember that the Bible was not written in English, but was translated from ancient Hebrew and Greek languages. Therefore, if you want to seek a deeper meaning of what was being said, you have to look at the original text. Here's another article on the actual meaning of those words, but I don't expect you to read it or educate yourself, since you didn't read the last one:

The way that article translates the meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words for fornication does not change the meaning of the scripture I've mentioned -- which you have surprisingly not even asked to read for yourself, to actually discover what the Bible really says on the topic.

I find it strange that you are posting links to articles that can justify fornication, instead of actually looking at what the Bible has to say about it. And it says no one will inherit the Kingdom of God if they partake in fornication. Or was the Apostle Paul lying, or playing a cruel trick?

In any case, what you are talking about is the Law, and Christians live under Grace, not under Law. But you apparently think you are such an expert on what Christians should be thinking and doing, you should know that.

The Bible specifically says anyone who fornicates will go to hell. Now you seem to be saying that a person can fornicate, repent and be forgiven and still go to heaven. So which is it, because it can't be both. Either the Bible is right and you are wrong, or you are right and it is wrong. Or can you quote me scripture where it states that fornicators can be forgiven and go to heaven, because then the Bible contradicts itself -- but then again, it's pretty good at that.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I'll say it again. Atheism is red-pill thinking; religion is blue pill.

I've never met an obnoxious, arrogant, know-it-all, Atheist like you who actually gets pvssy. The attitudes you are professing here are pvssy repellent...p!ssy, passive-aggressive, and angry about things you can't control. None of that will ever be attractive to women.

 

[Gimple]

I've never met an obnoxious, arrogant, know-it-all, Atheist like you who actually gets pvssy. The attitudes you are professing here are pvssy repellent...p!ssy, passive-aggressive, and angry about things you can't control. None of that will ever be attractive to women.

Actually, atheist women love talking about this stuff. They feel a connection when they realize someone else understands the transition they went through and how they outgrew and abandoned their religion.

Also, I find it ironic that you're the one who's guilty of all the things you've accused me of ... angry, passive-aggressive, etc.

 

[zekko]

The way that article translates the meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words for fornication does not change the meaning of the scripture I've mentioned -- which you have surprisingly not even asked to read for yourself, to actually discover what the Bible really says on the topic.

Lol, I don't have to ask, I've read it. And that doesn't change the fact that the Bible has to be translated, and interpreted. When Paul talks about fornication, he may just be talking about taking part in sexual idolatry rituals. You have to look at the Bible as a whole to get a better idea of the meaning, not just cherry pick single verses, which can be misinterpreted. Find me examples in the Bible where a man gets into trouble for having premarital sex, where neither party is married. Good luck.

The Bible specifically says anyone who fornicates will go to hell. Now you seem to be saying that a person can fornicate, repent and be forgiven and still go to heaven. So which is it, because it can't be both. Either the Bible is right and you are wrong, or you are right and it is wrong. Or can you quote me scripture where it states that fornicators can be forgiven and go to heaven, because then the Bible contradicts itself -- but then again, it's pretty good at that.

I've said none of the above things, I've simply provided sources for understanding the meaning of the word "fornication" as it is used in the Bible. Regarding the Law versus Grace, it is impossible for humans to live under the law, because all humans are guilty under the law. But the Bible does include its own plan for salvation, maybe you should go back and read it again.

 

[Gimple]

And that doesn't change the fact that the Bible has to be translated, and interpreted.

If the Bible has to be interpreted, we're not talking about what the writers' actual messages were. Then we're merely talking about your views and opinions of them, which are prone to have different meanings than were intended.

I'm interested in discussing the Bible based on what the writers were actually conveying. But I'm not so much interested in some guy's interpretation of it, especially when it looks to me like he's twisting passages and pulling at straws to reinforce his desire to live any way he sees fit, and to excuse and justify his sins, rather than seeking to understand the real messages the writers were communicating, with the intention of adjusting his behavior to conform to them.

But then again, Yahweh is an invention of man's imagination. So is hell. So even if it were true that the Bible says you'll go to hell if you fornicate, an imaginary father figure can't punish you with something that doesn't exist just because a work of fiction claims he will. Our consciousness' probably all just cease to exist when we die, a condition independent of what we believed or how we lived.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I'm interested in discussing the Bible based on what the writers were actually conveying.

No, you're not. You're interested in being an obnoxious know-it-all who pretends to have all the answers to questions humankind has pondered for all of its existence. Let's all bow down to your superior intellect, that's what you want, right? I guess that strokes all your sad little inferiority complexes. I can see why people like you are so attracted to Atheism. It's fuel to the fire of your inner douche.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

If the Bible has to be interpreted, we're not talking about what the writers' actual messages were. Then we're merely talking about your views and opinions of them, which are prone to have different meanings than were intended.

I'm interested in discussing the Bible based on what the writers were actually conveying. But I'm not so much interested in some guy's interpretation of it, especially when it looks to me like he's twisting passages and pulling at straws to reinforce his desire to live any way he sees fit, and to excuse and justify his sins, rather than seeking to understand the real messages the writers were communicating, with the intention of adjusting his behavior to conform to them.

But then again, Yahweh is an invention of man's imagination. So is hell. So even if it were true that the Bible says you'll go to hell if you fornicate, an imaginary father figure can't punish you with something that doesn't exist just because a work of fiction claims he will. Our consciousness' probably all just cease to exist when we die, a condition independent of what we believed or how we lived.

The issue of interpretation is an essential one. The fact is, there are various ways to interpret a text. If it is left to the individual, a la Protestant Reformation, we are left with anarchy, the church of Me. Hence the importance of an age old tradition, a la Catholicism.