Being a challenge is useless????

[zekko]

So if being a challenge only works if she is attracted in the first place, why don't they teach how to get her attracted in the first place? I think that's more of a sticking point for most guys than being a challenge.

 

[TheMonkeyKing]

'Being a challenge' simply means not being a melty guy who's gonna buckle at his woman's every whim.

It doesn't apply to a 5/10 who is trying to play hard to get because they are mostly excluded at point of reference anyway.

This is what so many misunderstand. Being a challenge is not a 'technique'. It's a mentality. And this is the ultimate flaw with traditional 'game'; it has taught men to act in a certain way, rather than actually live a lifestyle.

 

[CuddleJunkie]

'Being a challenge' simply means not being a melty guy who's gonna buckle at his woman's every whim.

It doesn't apply to a 5/10 who is trying to play hard to get because they are mostly excluded at point of reference anyway.

This is what so many misunderstand. Being a challenge is not a 'technique'. It's a mentality. And this is the ultimate flaw with traditional 'game'; it has taught men to act in a certain way, rather than actually live a lifestyle.

This. You can only stop selling yourself through game after you are actually high value. If not, then you have to use traditional game.
Two examples:
1. Daygame: the girl knows nothing about you, so you have to get in, sell yourself as interesting and exciting AND not to look like you need her approval. Difficult as fvck, a lot of rejections and flakes. The pro is, you will develop very good social skills and confidence, which will help you in any area of your life. The point being: you can't be a challenge here until you actually get inside her.
2. Social circle: If you are high value in your groups, the other guys from the groups are asking you for advice and offering you ****, and you have some stories inside the circle that imply your pre-selection, then you can actually be a challenge.

Two very different scenarios, that you should play out very differently too!

 

[Mike32ct]

So if being a challenge only works if she is attracted in the first place, why don't they teach how to get her attracted in the first place? I think that's more of a sticking point for most guys than being a challenge.

Bingo. First and foremost, the guy should focus on being atttactive and finding women that are attracted to him.

The "challenge" thing will take care of itself when she senses that you are attractive to other women and/or hears about you dating other women in the social circle.

 

[Pandora]

Being a challenge works but it is not an ideal situation. What you ideally want is a girl who doesnt need you to be a challenge. They like you so much already. If you have to start playing these games its usually not a good sign. It either means one of two things.
1.) The girl is broken, immature or confused on some level. These types of girls can not be in a functional long term relationship. Many American girls are like this. Especially the ones post 25 that are not married. The good ones get taken early.

2.) It is a sign of only moderate interest. Moderate interest may as well be no interest these days.

For healthy girls being a challenge is more about not being clingy. Just be a normal human with social skills. Don't text her too much, dont talk to her on the phone too much, dont press her out too much. Normal stuff that any guy that has a life should be doing anyway. But when it starts to get to the point where you have to really manipulate her through forced behaviors it usually is not good. Most of the girls i ended up being with i never really had to pretend to be a challenge. They were super into me from the get go. So i just had to not mess it up by being super clingy.

 

[BeExcellent]

Have a life and stuff to do. When your own life is filled with your own pursuits you are genuinely too busy doing your thing to be obsessing over a woman.

Having a full life also allows your attitude to exude warmth and a happy vibe and allows you to relate to others from a full place, an abundant place.

Then your interactions with women become more natural because your time is scarce and valuable. You naturally use your time efficiently, rather than from a contrived place. You exude fullness and this draws people toward you.

There is nothing more attractive than this quality. Be the man she knows is busy and be the man who she is delighted to hear from & delighted about spending time with (because she knows your time is valuable and she wouldn't dare flake or cancel.)

It's subtle. But women can read it a mile away.

 

[Pandora]

Have a life and stuff to do. When your own life is filled with your own pursuits you are genuinely too busy doing your thing to be obsessing over a woman.

Having a full life also allows your attitude to exude warmth and a happy vibe and allows you to relate to others from a full place, an abundant place.

Then your interactions with women become more natural because your time is scarce and valuable. You naturally use your time efficiently, rather than from a contrived place. You exude fullness and this draws people toward you.

There is nothing more attractive than this quality. Be the man she knows is busy and be the man who she is delighted to hear from & delighted about spending time with (because she knows your time is valuable and she wouldn't dare flake or cancel.)

It's subtle. But women can read it a mile away.

very true.

 

[wifehunter]

Pushover's / supplicators get disrespected and/or dumped... challenge is the only way.

Go be awesome!

 

[Roober]

Have a life and stuff to do. When your own life is filled with your own pursuits you are genuinely too busy doing your thing to be obsessing over a woman.

Having a full life also allows your attitude to exude warmth and a happy vibe and allows you to relate to others from a full place, an abundant place.

Then your interactions with women become more natural because your time is scarce and valuable. You naturally use your time efficiently, rather than from a contrived place. You exude fullness and this draws people toward you.

There is nothing more attractive than this quality. Be the man she knows is busy and be the man who she is delighted to hear from & delighted about spending time with (because she knows your time is valuable and she wouldn't dare flake or cancel.)

It's subtle. But women can read it a mile away.

And that is the basis of it all. Live life and you will naturally be a challenge. If you are getting out doing things, you won't have much time to spend with a woman. If you are actively dating and hanging with the guys, you will naturally only have 1-2 free nights per week. Most men fall into the trap of going to work, then going home and watching TV or some other useless activity. They are not living, they are merely running on the wheel.

It is not intentionally ignoring her, you just honestly don't have time for her. If you are consciously ignoring a woman, you are playing games. As the relationship develops, a guy will (if he chooses) begin to let her participate in his activities. But he should not stop doing them at all...

 

[fastlife]

So if being a challenge only works if she is attracted in the first place, why don't they teach how to get her attracted in the first place? I think that's more of a sticking point for most guys than being a challenge.

*Cough*PUA*Cough*

Have a life and stuff to do. When your own life is filled with your own pursuits you are genuinely too busy doing your thing to be obsessing over a woman.

Having a full life also allows your attitude to exude warmth and a happy vibe and allows you to relate to others from a full place, an abundant place.

Then your interactions with women become more natural because your time is scarce and valuable. You naturally use your time efficiently, rather than from a contrived place. You exude fullness and this draws people toward you.

There is nothing more attractive than this quality. Be the man she knows is busy and be the man who she is delighted to hear from & delighted about spending time with (because she knows your time is valuable and she wouldn't dare flake or cancel.)

It's subtle. But women can read it a mile away.

Agreed, for the most part. But there are also plenty of guys who have all the aforementioned qualities but don't know how to present themselves as attractive sexual options or to package their lives as something that women would want to compete over for entrance. Additionally, there are plenty of guys who have no life in an objective sense but can still manage to spin a 'reality' that women want to enter.

Ideally, you'd have both. But if you can only pick one, strictly for the purpose of having an abundance of women, attraction wins 9/10 (at least until women hit a certain age).

 

[RangerMIke]

I wouldn't worry about being a challenge, just go out and have options. Date as many women as you can and you will naturally be a challenge, you will not have to work at it. Have a busy life and lots of women and you will be a challenge and won't have to act like anything. This works best because women always know... you can;t really fool them, if you are just pretending to be a challenge, she will know you are playing games, which will make you look weak.

 

[corrector]

Oh f*ck it man...........Right until now I am still confused about it.

So I hope the ppl out there will explain so my confusion will be cleared.

People who demonstrate challenge to attract girls must at least have stirred the girl's interest in them. The girls must be at least attracted to them before "challenge" can work.

But I just re-read the DJ Bible and do some reading on previous materials and I have come across what they said is this "If you demonstrate challenge to girls, she will become interested in you"

But on what evidence could you prove that is true? Just think about it for a sec, if an ugly girl who you're not interested in at all starts being a challenge, how is it going to make you become interested in her?

Doesn't it make sense? If an ugly chick who I am not interested in at all starts playing hard to get, then it will not make me become attracted to her. I wish she will continue to play hard to get and I will ignore her so I wont be bothered by her again.

So back to the issue again. Does "being a challenge will make a girl become attracted to you even if she has absolutely no interest in you from the beginning?" If yes, how do you implement it?

Yeah, lots of these PUA advice is like getting a bank loan. If you really need the loan then banks don't want to lend out the money. If you have more money than you need, then banks want to deal with you and give you loans.

If you have the looks in the first place, or don't really have a problem getting a girl, then type of stuff sorts itself out naturally. If the girl likes you more than you like her then naturally she'll have to work harder at getting your attention as will naturally be a challenge. If you like her more than she likes you then being a challenge probably won't work anyway since she's not that interested anyway. Sometimes, you have to show allot of interest, motivation and enthusiasm to make her feel special enough that she'll reciprocate back or she'll think you are not interested and move-on.

If it's advice about not being clingy over someone, then isn't that just common sense? At what point does advice (i.e. being a challenge) go beyond common sense, or is not a catch-22 where you need looks, status, or something that ladies value in the first place for it to work? Then that is the type of advice that would be interesting.

 

[BeExcellent]

You express confidence by expressing self amusement, being emotionally unreactive, being humble, not qualifying yourself, and not being afraid to express vulnerability. These are all hallmarks, or "signposts" to authentic confidence. This is what women notice.

^^^This

So you see now, challenge is yet another sign post to confidence. And confidence is a signpost to ABUNDANCE.

And ^^^ this.

She sees you acting a certain way and she rationalizes to herself "He must be confident not to qualify himself, not to react emotionally, to not take anything I throw at him seriously, to always have control over his emotions, to act CHALLENGING."

^^^This gentlemen is going on in a woman's mind at the SUBCONSCIOUS level. I wouldn't call it rationalizing so much as evaluating. Pre-qualifying. If you meet a woman's pre-qualifying evaluations on a subconscious level, she is going to pre-select you SUBCONSCIOUSLY. This is where you get the super high IL, the women who do not flake, and the women who are truly into you.

Which is only one side of things.

Managing women is a skill (believe it or not). He can be the most wonderful man in the world, but if he presents like a poofter, she will be turned off (or merely take him for his social/material worth).

Managing women is it's own particular. Managing life (career/hobbies/etc) is another particular, entirely.

Well holy cow Batman! We agree on something

I would add simply that these are actually two sides of the same coin...and I certainly acknowledge that there do exist men who have the professional side down pat and remain clueless regarding the woman/social/dating side.

But men with only one side of the coin don't exude the same allure as men who have both sides (per your example) squared away.

Therefore I'd say that such men don't have the self development yet to radiate the natural take or leave attitude and ease that is so attractive to women. In fact some of the most repellent (creepy) men are the very successful yet socially clueless. The dichotomy creates a cognitive dissonance that is unsettling from a woman's perspective. This disconnect is so disconcerting that it makes meeting and relating to women more difficult, which results in a man qualifying himself to a woman with "resources" and stuff and creates a downward spiral of behavior that doesn't end up anywhere good for a man. This sort of thing can leave a woman wondering How on Earth did he achieve his accomplishments if he is this inept with people? See the disconnect? This too operates largely at a subconscious level. So a woman may "feel" something incongruent, which can be off putting.

As a woman I'm telling you that the naturally alluring men have both sides of the coin handled and they are doing just fine thank you very much.

 

[bigneil]

At first, you must be omnipresent. Everything about the target must remind them about you. Disappear too soon and you are not missed but simply forgotten.

You need to catch her eye, and then leave her wanting more. Do this a few times and she will then make an effort to keep you from evading her. Sometimes if you leave at a key moment, sneak out, blow them off, cancel the plans, evade them, it hooks them by making them think about you to the point where they develop oneitis for you.

 

[Mike32ct]

I certainly acknowledge that there do exist men who have the professional side down pat and remain clueless regarding the woman/social/dating side.

Absolutely. Just to give you the nerdy guy perspective, success in a technical career is actually MUCH easier than dealing with shyness/awkwardness/social anxiety and dealing with women. I mean it's not "easy," but it's more linear or "cookbook" and hard work is rewarded.

But men with only one side of the coin don't exude the same allure as men who have both sides (per your example) squared away.

No doubt.

Therefore I'd say that such men don't have the self development yet to radiate the natural take or leave attitude and ease that is so attractive to women.

Self-development aside, he still needs to have the looks or his "take it or leave it" attitude won't show up on any woman's radar screen.

In fact some of the most repellent (creepy) men are the very successful yet socially clueless. The dichotomy creates a cognitive dissonance that is unsettling from a woman's perspective. This disconnect is so disconcerting that it makes meeting and relating to women more difficult, which results in a man qualifying himself to a woman with "resources" and stuff and creates a downward spiral of behavior that doesn't end up anywhere good for a man. This sort of thing can leave a woman wondering How on Earth did he achieve his accomplishments if he is this inept with people? See the disconnect? This too operates largely at a subconscious level. So a woman may "feel" something incongruent, which can be off putting.

Wow that's deep. So an awkward guy with a good career is more of a creep than an awkward guy that serves fast food. Never thought of it that way. I just assumed that it would be the other way around, and women would be more forgiving of his awkwardness if he had a good job. But I was overly optimistic lol. But anyway, great insight. Thanks.

As a woman I'm telling you that the naturally alluring men have both sides of the coin handled and they are doing just fine thank you very much.

^See above.

 

[BeExcellent]

^See above.

I can't tell if your tone is sarcastic or not. I will assume it isn't. I understand that obtaining success professionally is much easier than social and male/female dynamics for those who are not naturally socially adept. My purpose for posting is in order to provide a perspective and perhaps some insight to how the dichotomy I refer to above is unsettling.

A real life example. I recently met a senior VP of a scientific company. PhD. He was a speaker at an industry conference on a technical topic. We got to chatting after and continued the conversation with a couple of other folks at a lounge. After a few drinks we exchanged business cards and the other two people excused themselves. As I was getting up to leave the venue he asked if he could stay in touch with me, said that he "liked" me...could we grab coffee some time. So far so good (maybe not by SS standards but...). I found him intelligent and charming and I said sure, that would be nice. Afterwards I didn't text him at all (assuming as I do that a man who is interested in a woman will take the initiative, a., and also b., that he is quite busy.) This guy kept in contact (probably too much contact) via text but we were both quite busy and he was about to leave on a business trip for a couple of weeks to Europe, so the conversation lagged for a number of days. But it was pleasant, get to know conversation of a sporadic nature. No red flags (to me) thus far.

Now to be fair, I was interested in him but I didn't know to what degree because his personality was quite reserved. He was smart, physically attractive (not gorgegous but nice looking), and I was interested in getting to know him better (because sometimes attraction grows). He was a person I esteemed to be worth my time to get to know better.

But as I said he had been out of touch several days ahead of his trip. I didn't bug him, I figured he was busy.

As he was on the phone at Kennedy in the plane waiting to taxi out for his trip a bizarre (to my mind) thing happened. He texted to say he was off to Europe and I responded wishing safe travel. So far the interaction had seemed very normal for between two people before a date (or a second meet, more accurately) had occurred. I figured he would be out of touch for two weeks and if he still wished to get together expected I'd hear back from him once he was back stateside. So I went off to do something and (EEK!) put my phone down or on the charger or God knows what.

Then a few minutes later he began blowing up my phone (as in a barrage of staccato messages, probably 12 or 15) saying: So you do like me? Are you interested? (I had gone somewhere for about 15 minutes without my phone) and then the messages morphed (since he assumed a. I was getting the texts, and b. that I was purposefully disregarding them) into: Are you there? Why aren't you responding? I expect rapid response! Are you interested? Are you there? Where are you? I will call you from Europe! Where are you!...and on and on.

When I saw all these messages on my phone I responded "I'm here". Nothing from him.

Presumably his plane had taken off by then. But my italicized statement in my post above was exactly what ran through my brain. How is this VP this needy? Why does he appear this desperate? Doesn't he have people skills? How can he expect immediate response and then freak out - doesn't he realize other people have things to do? He manages people...he has somehow risen to a VP level and is doing public speaking...

He came off at first as very self assured and well rounded but in the end was insecure, needy, desperate, and yet a control freak. My guess would be an executive used to "Yes" people all around him asking How High! How High! whenever he said Jump!

Extremely unattractive in the end.

I was stunned and completely like NEXT!!!

I did send him a quick message and said something to the effect of I had stepped away from my phone but saw his messages. I also said that I can't always respond immediately because I have things going on in my own life and that perceived his expectation of immediate responsiveness was an indicator that I would not be able to meet his expectations, so I wished him a safe trip and asked that he not reach out again.

And he is not the only very successful man I have seen with these tendencies. (Altlhough never any others to this degree). If very successful men wants a woman but can't find one...there is always a reason.

Most people assume (as I did) that the very successful must have their act together in all aspects of life (social, etc.) but often they don't. This runs counter to what others expect (based on professional success or perceived high status), which creates additional difficulty for such men in the landscape. That has been at least my observation. These men end up isolated, or can.

 

[Mike32ct]

No sarcasm was intended. I genuinely appreciate your post and honestly did find it interesting and insightful.

Just to add on to what you just said.... Interpersonal relationship politics is so different from work communications. A technical nerd can do ok at meetings and even public speaking because it's a technical topic that he's knowledgeable and passionate about. But if he's asking out an attractive woman, he might be awkward af lol.