Alpha/Beta - can there ever be an ideal balance?

[SteR]

People are always talking about alpha ****s, beta bucks etc but I've always believed there can be a happy medium ie. You can behave with enough dominant, masculine behaviour yet still be kind and caring towards your partner.

My parents have remained faithful their entire marriage (as far as I know) and have always been good role models to me for how a relationship should be - or so I've been led to believe.

I got into a deep conversation with my mother tonight and she told me how she was in a relationship with a biker/druggy before she got together with my dad. She said she was head over heels for him, however he caused her a lot of pain and she developed an eating disorder and fell into depression. She then met my dad who changed everything for her, yada yada. I've picked up on them talking in the past and my mum has definitely had a few more lovers than my dad. I don't get the impression my father's ever been what you'd call a player.

This really struck a chord with me as it pretty much backs up everything said on this board, and led me to believe my dad isn't the man I thought he was. I may be a little cynical here, but it almost sounded like my mum wanted the alpha badboy but in the end settled for the beta chump. He's always been so assertive/dominant with my mother, and she's definitely feminine and submissive to him, however it's knocked my foundations a little. I've always viewed theirs as the paragon of relationships.

One thing that always worries me is that I could ever be that beta chump. I think I've had enough experiences now that I could ever fall into that trap but it'll always be in the back of my mind. I almost fear being too caring for anyone as not to fall into the trap of becoming a *****.

Do you think it's possible to have enough alpha traits to keep the tingles, yet still maintain a healthy relationship? I'd be interested to hear other opinions..

 

[Tictac]

Do you think it's possible to have enough alpha traits to keep the tingles, yet still maintain a healthy relationship

Sure. It's called being a good man rather than a nice guy.

Most of what people call 'alpha' behavior or even being a jerk is no more than a man speaking your mind and being congruent. It's when you start trying to change who you are for someone else that you become 'beta'.

All this alpha/beta crap is so overdone it's ridiculous.

 

[HoneyHitter]

1) Whatever trait, behavior or skill makes you "desirable", keep it in display as much as you can.

2) Find out which ones you (can) have and make them work for your specific situation and circumstance.

3) The more other women desire you , the better your woman will treat you.

OP, your dad was probably clueless (or didn't care) about women and never got to the point where your mom had to actively fence him off from other women. She wouldn't have told about other love interests if she feared losing him.

 

[zekko]

People are always talking about alpha ****s, beta bucks etc but I've always believed there can be a happy medium ie. You can behave with enough dominant, masculine behaviour yet still be kind and caring towards your partner.

You're right that alphas are dominant, but it sounds like you're saying that "kind and caring" means beta. Beta means follower, it has nothing to do with being kind or caring. A king can be benevolent, or he can be a cruel dictator. It's not the cruelness or benevolence that makes him the king, it's the power.

Most PUA theorists would probably say your mother settled for the beta, it's not my place to say. I personally think that, rather than calling it settling, women learn that going after the guy who won't commit is a dumb idea. More hardcore types will tell you women are incapable of learning, but that sounds a little too cynical to me.

Anyway, upper level beta is not a bad position. They get many of the benefits of the alpha without all the risk.

 

[Tenacity]

Here's a couple of truth nuggets:

- There is NO SUCH thing as an "alpha" or a "beta". This is bullshyt philosophy created by PUAs based on the Animal Kingdom, to try and sell seduction books. No real fvcking human being in America is 100% alpha or 100% beta, or part alpha or part beta, or any of this stupid shyt. In some aspects of life, you get to be the leader and in some aspects, you have to STFU and follow someone more experienced than you are.

- Also even if we were going to play these "roles", it would be the beta male that would have the majority of the resources anyway, because to make a lot of money in this country you have to SERVE people. You have to serve vendors, suppliers, clients, bankers, equity partners, shareholders, regulators, a higher level manager....there's no such fvcking thing as some guy with a "suit" who runs around doing whatever the fvck he wants, whenever the fvck he wants. That's a cartoon character.

- When you are dating/fvcking women and spinning plates, the type of GUY you are during that phase is going to be a totally different GUY than when you settle into a stable relationship. You have to tone that player shyt down and become more along the lines of the "beta" (whatever the hell that is) because you have to meet your partner at a 50/50 level to work together to make the relationship/family structure work.

If you read my Anger thread, I rant about how most women I date do in fact come from a history of dating thugs, bums and losers. But the reality is, most PLAYERS are thugs, bums and losers, very rarely do you have a PLAYER that actually is also financially stable because a lot of times it's hard to develop both skill sets (laying women and financial management) at an early age.

The reality is that once you decide to settle down, you are going to have to play the role of the "beta" because that's truly the only way to sustain a relationship. You don't want to be a bytch, or be a person that never has a say, or not have a backbone........but you are going to have to give up and sacrifice some things in order to make the relationship work. If you don't want to do that, then remain a Player and keep spinning plates until you are ready for such level of commitment/sacrifice.

 

[yuppee]

if you're still a playa at age 30, you're going to be very depressed, lonely and anxious by the time you are 40, guaranteed, and probably have had every STI known to man, too.

 

[yuppee]

at the right time in your life, with the right gal, yes, you can have such a balance, at least for a while. The issue is maintaining it, which is impossible for very long. Will that period be long enough to have made it worthwhile to you? maybe.

 

[Çharismo]

The true Alpha-men DO exist...but we are just very rare to find. I say "we" because I've been called an Alpha-man, Charismatic, hot, have a strong presence/aura, ladies man...etc. You have to understand that the concept of Alpha-man exists for a reason...there are hierarchies that are established even in the animal kingdom where the most dominant stay on top of the food chain, can attract the most mates, are naturally strong and fit, can protect the family unit, and most of all they are good at providing. Even though people in the PUA community use this concept to sell you a product and try to teach you to emulate certain behaviors what you have to understand is where and how this concept/model originated...HOW it came to fruition. At the end of the day most men will NEVER become an Alpha-man and won't really know what it's like to be one.

Now some of you will question this and try to poke holes in my argument and try to tell me that we have to look at this "subjectively" or "objectively" but what I am explaining is strictly from an attraction point of view...as in the ability to naturally attract women without even opening your mouth. Commanding the attention of an entire room as soon as you walk in, women literally not being able to control themselves, becoming nervous, blushing, fidgeting, staring at you, naturally becoming submissive, or even becoming hostile and aggressive towards you. Men automatically despising and becoming jealous of you, thinking that you are going to "steal" there woman, people trying to exclude you out of there circles, looking for ways to cut you down or "bring you back down to reality". The list goes on but you get the point. That's the type of powerful effect I have on people that's the power of a true Alpha-man so before any of you say that's bull$hit or it possibly can't be true or there is no way that every women is attracted to you...it's because you aren't one and even if you did come across one most of you wouldn't be able to stand being near one let alone have a normal or proper conversation with one without making it some sort of a competition.

This is just my understanding and observation but MOST men remain clueless for majority of there lives until eventually something "wakes" them up whether it's a divorce, bankruptcy, near-death experience, health problems or just becoming old...etc..Even reading some of the posts on this website I can tell pretty fast who is on what level. Past a certain age a lot of men DO smooth out, embrace and eventually become comfortable in there masculinity, become balanced (key-word), develop there inner-wisdom by transcending all the bull$hit programming and see the Matrix for what it is. Most people settle for mediocrity and never aim for anything higher let alone doing something worthwhile so when they come across someone that completely disrupts there reality and challenges the status-quo it's very damaging to the human ego.

In addition, what you consider "beta" is basically someone supplicating, manipulating, catering to, and molding themselves to please the opposite sex rather than being true to themselves and who they are at there core. Most men THINK they have an idea of what it takes to attract the opposite sex but the reality is far from the truth that's why these types of websites and PUA material exist because of all the problems that men are having with women not the other way around. Again I could go on about this but the reality is that your father is actually a good-man rather than a nice-man but I highly doubt he was ever an Alpha.

Just to add more to what I wrote here is an article I found that a woman wrote describing how she feels. http://www.takeninhand.com/the.alpha.male.and.masculine.power

 

[Tictac]

The true Alpha-men DO exist...but we are just very rare to find. I say "we" because I've been called an Alpha-man, Charismatic, hot, have a strong presence/aura, ladies man...etc. You have to understand that the concept of Alpha-man exists for a reason...there are hierarchies that are established even in the animal kingdom where the most dominant stay on top of the food chain, can attract the most mates, are naturally strong and fit, can protect the family unit, and most of all they are good at providing. Even though people in the PUA community use this concept to sell you a product and try to teach you to emulate certain behaviors what you have to understand is where and how this concept/model originated...HOW it came to fruition. At the end of the day most men will NEVER become an Alpha-man and won't really know what it's like to be one.

Now some of you will question this and try to poke holes in my argument and try to tell me that we have to look at this "subjectively" or "objectively" but what I am explaining is strictly from an attraction point of view...as in the ability to naturally attract women without even opening your mouth. Commanding the attention of an entire room as soon as you walk in, women literally not being able to control themselves, becoming nervous, blushing, fidgeting, staring at you, naturally becoming submissive, or even becoming hostile and aggressive towards you. Men automatically despising and becoming jealous of you, thinking that you are going to "steal" there woman, people trying to exclude you out of there circles, looking for ways to cut you down or "bring you back down to reality". The list goes on but you get the point. That's the type of powerful effect I have on people that's the power of a true Alpha-man so before any of you say that's bull$hit or it possibly can't be true or there is no way that every women is attracted to you...it's because you aren't one and even if you did come across one most of you wouldn't be able to stand being near one let alone have a normal or proper conversation with one without making it some sort of a competition.

This is just my understanding and observation but MOST men remain clueless for majority of there lives until eventually something "wakes" them up whether it's a divorce, bankruptcy, near-death experience, health problems or just becoming old...etc..Even reading some of the posts on this website I can tell pretty fast who is on what level. Past a certain age a lot of men DO smooth out, embrace and eventually become comfortable in there masculinity, become balanced (key-word), develop there inner-wisdom by transcending all the bull$hit programming and see the Matrix for what it is. Most people settle for mediocrity and never aim for anything higher let alone doing something worthwhile so when they come across someone that completely disrupts there reality and challenges the status-quo it's very damaging to the human ego.

In addition, what you consider "beta" is basically someone supplicating, manipulating, catering to, and molding themselves to please the opposite sex rather than being true to themselves and who they are at there core. Most men THINK they have an idea of what it takes to attract the opposite sex but the reality is far from the truth that's why these types of websites and PUA material exist because of all the problems that men are having with women not the other way around. Again I could go on about this but the reality is that your father is actually a good-man rather than a nice-man but I highly doubt he was ever an Alpha.

Well, how nice for you!

News flash - if you are typing about how you are an alpha male, you are not an alpha male.

You could go on. But it's good you didn't.

 

[Çharismo]

Awww...that's cute.

 

[zekko]

the most dominant stay on top of the food chain, can attract the most mates, are naturally strong and fit, can protect the family unit, and most of all they are good at providing

Agree that providing is an alpha trait in nature, although PUA gurus tend to assign that characteristic to betas, because it doesn't fit their agenda.

I don't think that people should define "alpha" by how good they are with women though. A man is not alpha because he is good with women. He is good with women, attracts women, because he is alpha, if you know what I mean.

 

[SteR]

Well, I made the original post for a couple of reasons:

I was out with friends the other night and ended up getting pretty close with a girl pretty quickly. I didn't want anything serious and I told her that quite clearly up front. Anyway we ended up sleeping together, but in the process I got to know a fair bit about her life story. To say it was bad would be an understatement. She's had more red flags than I've ever seen in a single girl. I won't go into detail but let's just say it's ended up with suicide attempts etc - basically someone I'd never even entertain the idea of an LTR with.

I told her we can be friends and I made her promise me that if she ever finds herself in that place again, she should call me up and talk it out. I genuinely felt sorry for her. In fact I told her if she wants to talk about what's bothering her I'd be happy to listen because it seems she's not dealing with her problems. I actually took her out for lunch the next day and we talked a lot.

Anyway we move on from this and I find out a few days later she's seeing another guy. I didn't bother me too much as I was very clear with her up front that we were just having a fling, but it did make me question whether my 'being there' for her made me appear weak in her eyes? I don't know. In fact just typing this out makes it seem slightly ridiculous but it did make me question myself.

The other problem was hearing my mother speak about how she ended up with my father. It sounded like the original guy had won her heart but she ended up settling for my dad because he was more 'stable'. She didn't word it like that.. but my cynical mind can't help but view it that way - maybe it's from being on these boards too much.

Anyway I thought I'd just raise the question to see what others thought..

 

[zekko]

Red flag #1: She slept with you right away
Red flag #2: She has a history of suicide attempts
Red flag #3: She's seeing another guy

Like you said, she's not LTR material, so you shouldn't be worrying about her. You're probably just hanging around with her for the sex, but if it was me I would be questioning what I was doing with her in the first place.

The other problem was hearing my mother speak about how she ended up with my father. It sounded like the original guy had won her heart but she ended up settling for my dad because he was more 'stable'. She didn't word it like that.. but my cynical mind can't help but view it that way - maybe it's from being on these boards too much.

You've been conditioned to think that way from reading these boards. There's nothing wrong with being stable. Do you want your life to be in order, or do you want it in chaos? A little chaos can be exciting now and then, but stability is actually a good thing. Do you want to be blown around with every wind or do you want a strong ship that you can sail in whichever direction you choose?

You want to be able to direct your life, you don't want your life directing you. Whether or not a woman can appreciate that is their problem. I personally think that women CAN appreciate that, and if they can't they are most likely damaged.

 

[SteR]

You're probably just hanging around with her for the sex, but if it was me I would be questioning what I was doing with her in the first place.

But this is the thing: It was I that stopped the sex because I felt she had too much going on. The reason I'm in contact with her now is to offer her a little support, although maybe I should back away completely and let her new guy deal with it...

Like I said: This isn't to do with sex. I've already been there.

Hmm. I'll see what happens..

 

[guru1000]

Fluidity, my friend, fluidity. Knowing when to be "alpha"; when to be "beta"; understanding the context; understanding the subject ... Many fail intermittently by applying one methodology to all contexts.

Some situations/subjects/contexts need alpha. Some beta. Some both. Some neither. Social intelligence is understanding the variegation and serving the context befittingly. Very few are fluid, as we, the social creatures, are saddled by unyielding identities which dictate who we are supposed to be. Further, society shames "fluidity," as, on its face, it lacks verity of character as how can one be genuine yet formless, assuming only the form of its subjects.

The esoteric understand that their identities were never theirs to begin with, as "identity" is simply an amalgamation of social constructs, environment, upbringing, and education. And so, those who intractably marry their identities in all contexts are foolish.

 

[Yewki]

Alpha/Beta - can there ever be an ideal balance?

The ideal balance of alpha/beta is... not associating with or caring about either.

 

[spikeanut]

The terms alpha/beta have been completely generalized in the PUA community, but the main thing that distinguishes a confident man form a chump is not caring or needing the validation of others to validate your self-worth. Once you get beyond the dependency of anothers perception, that is truly when you have the inner confidence that alters the way you carry yourself: the way you walk, talk, the very air around you, to the point of being noticeable by both men and women around you. Get away from the whole alpha/beta mindset…it comes down to you not caring what anyone else, including women, thinks of you. Once you internalize your self-worth, your inner confidence as a man will exude effortlessly from you. That is the true “alpha.”

 

[ZTIME]

Fluidity, my friend, fluidity. Knowing when to be "alpha"; when to be "beta"; understanding the context; understanding the subject ... Many fail intermittently by applying one methodology to all contexts.

Some situations/subjects/contexts need alpha. Some beta. Some both. Some neither. Social intelligence is understanding the variegation and serving the context befittingly. Very few are fluid, as we, the social creatures, are saddled by unyielding identities which dictate who we are supposed to be. Further, society shames "fluidity," as, on its face, it lacks verity of character as how can one be genuine yet formless, assuming only the form of its subjects.

Bingo! "The chameleon", the master of situational and environmental surroundings.

I think that most Alpha/Beta discussions are based of an inability to adapt to ones surroundings. We only believe in a "one-way" approach where there must be a right or wrong. Were raised in a compartmentalized world where all things come with definition and meaning.

It takes a stronger man to learn to adapt to his surroundings. Not for social validation, but to experience different compartments and excell in them all. (I.e. Not thinking out side of the box, but diving into several to see what makes them tick).

It's too often that we focus on right or wrong instead of enjoying ones surroundings. Kind of like the guys that go to a Buffett and only eat the crab legs thinking it's the most expensive thing there. "I showed those f***ers, $9.00 and I ate 10 plates of them bit**es!!" The hot chicks were at the salad bar, guess you missed it.

Good Thread.

 

[SteR]

... the main thing that distinguishes a confident man form a chump is not caring or needing the validation of others to validate your self-worth. Once you get beyond the dependency of anothers perception, that is truly when you have the inner confidence that alters the way you carry yourself: the way you walk, talk, the very air around you, to the point of being noticeable by both men and women around you.

I completely agree with you here. I think the mistake I've made is viewing these qualities as black and white. I also agree with what Guru said about being fluid - I think that's certainly the way to go.

Thanks for the responses guys.