side effects of hair loss treatments

[ubercat]

Hi all

I've been taking finasteride and minoxidil for hair loss. And it seems to have worked however @marmel75 raised some serious concerns about long term side effects including sexual dysfunction which is obviously going to scare the hell out of a DJ. I assume a proportion of the older guys maybe using these treatments so I thought it was a good idea to have the discussion here instead of pming him.

 

[ubercat]

Points to discuss.

Is it finasteride which has potential long term side effects or minoxidil as well?

Is there any credible research showing side effects. E.g. read the bottom line section on the following article

http://www.the-dermatologist.com/content/does-finasteride-lead-permanent-sexual-side-effects

Magnesium oil supplementation and vitamin k2 has been suggested as alternative treatment.

Are there any known side from these supplements?

Can you get the same results by increasing foods in your diet that are high in these minerals and vitamins? E.g. spinach is high in magnesium.

 

[ubercat]

Yeah that's the interesting thing. Me too 1/4 of a pill daily. My mate does the same.

 

[marmel75]

Magnesium oil supplementation and vitamin k2 has been suggested as alternative treatment.

Are there any known side from these supplements?

Can you get the same results by increasing foods in your diet that are high in these minerals and vitamins? E.g. spinach is high in magnesium.

Lol...you are taking prescription drugs with known severe and irreversable side effects(regardless of who says its safe, there are TONS of horror stories out from these---use google)and asking what side effects two vital nutrients that 99% of people in the world are deficient in have? That would be like you diving off a cliff and then asking if its dangerous to jump in a swimming pool. The sheer ludicrousness of this cannot be overstated, but nonetheless, I will humor you.

Known Side Effects:

Vitamin K2--50% less calcification of your arteries in 6 weeks(and by default the rest of your soft tissue--calcium doesn't simply accumulate in the arteries specifically, it accumulates everywhere)---it basically "tells" calcium where to go, as well as "Carboxylating" or activating MGP, which is what is responsible for keeping your arteries clean. Basically Vitamin K2 is responsible for activating 16 different calcium binding proteins(eg: MGP, CalModulin, etc). Without K2, these proteins remain in an "Uncarboxylated" or Inactive state. It's a vital nutrient that was called "X-Factor" by Dr. Weston Price. It's nearly impossible to get in our diet currently in sufficient quantities since it is typically generated by grass fed animals that eat grasses high in Vitamin K1 and then transform them into K2 with the aid of sunshine and Vitamin D. Since most animals are neither grass fed nor expose to sunshine for any length of time, Vitamin K2 content of most foods is non-existent. Natto, Kefir(from grass fed milk) and Sauerkraut are exceptions, but all derive their vitamin K2 content from bacterial conversion of K1 into K2. The human body converts almost on K1 into K2 even though we have bacteria that will convert it, most of it is used by the bacteria and very little ends up being available to the body. This was proven in studies giving people large doses of K1 versus other people who were given standard doses of K2. None of the protective effects of the K2 group were seen in the K1 group, showing that we cannot synthesize it very well like animals do.

Magnesium Oil--Greatly Enhanced Detoxification of the body, especially in regards to heavy metals, and proper functioning of 300+ processes in the body which function very poorly or not at all when deficient amounts of Magnesium are present. Magnesium is one of the most important minerals in the body as its responsible for being a catalyst in over 300 Biochemical reactions in the body. No magnesium, no biochemical reactions. Lots of health problems. Including heart attacks. Whats the first thing they do when you go to the hospital with a suspected heart issue? Give you an IV of Magnesium Chloride(aka Magnesium Oil). Magnesium Oil is a far superior form of Magnesium than oral forms as it is absorbed much better and bypasses the intestines which tends to sequester much of the Magnesium for itself, leaving less for the body to use. In fact recent studies have shown that 12 weeks of Magnesium Oil usage gives intra-cellular levels of Magnesium equivalent to 9-24 months of oral supplementation with Magnesium Citrate. In other words, it will take you 3-8 times longer to achieve the same results. Magnesium also displaces Calcium in the soft tissues via the Calcium-Magnesium pump whereby calcium is pumped out of the soft tissues and magnesium is pumped in. No Magnesium? No problem. Calcium gets in the muscles and soft tissues and cannot get out. This leads to atherosclerosis, hair loss(calcification of the capillaries feeding the hair follicles), extremely stiff muscles, autoimmune diseases(calcium has been implicated as being a main cause of numerous if not ALL autoimmune diseases), heart attacks, strokes and death. Can you get enough Magnesium from foods? More than likely not. In large parts because the soil conditions are inconsistent at best and poor at worst, and nutrient uptake depends on the fertilizers and pesticides being used or not being used, which are also inconsistent at best.

There are literally NO people who would not benefit from supplementing from both of these two things in some way. Virtually everyone is deficient in one and most are deficient in both of these key nutrients. With virtually everything being fortified with Calcium these days, for an unknown reason since lack of calcium is NOT the cause of Osteoporosis(these people have plenty of calcium, its just stuck in the soft tissues and arteries---taking calcium actually causes the problem to get WORSE not better), and calcium is extremely easy to obtain in the diet. In fact people take in between 6-8 times too much calcium and far too little D3, K2 and Magnesium Oil. So you effectively flood the body with calcium, but then don't even take enough D3, K2 and Magnesium---all of which play key roles in Calcium balancing---to deal with the normal amount of calcium you are supposed to be taking in, let alone a daily dose 6-8 times higher than what you should be. And then people wonder why Atherosclerosis is at an all time high? Thank the FDA---they are doing the sh!t on purpose to get people on drugs as fast and for as long as possible. Look at their recommendations for using sunscreen, which blocks the production of Vitamin D in the body, their ridiculously low recommendations for D3 supplementation(most people need between 8,000-10,000 IU per day to maintain optimal levels), and them allowing calcium fortification of nearly everything.

Makes no sense, but it happens---if you have done enough research on the FDA none of it should surprise you---Americans health is the LAST thing they are concerned with, unless its ensuring the worsening of it starting at as young an age as possible. The heads of the FDA over the last 50 years should be tried in front of the UN courts for Crimes Against Humanity---they have killed far more people than any of the warlords who get tried and convicted there have, but somehow everyone just turns a blind eye to what is going on. Its a disgrace to be honest.

 

[marmel75]

Hi all

I've been taking finasteride and minoxidil for hair loss. And it seems to have worked however @marmel75 raised some serious concerns about long term side effects including sexual dysfunction which is obviously going to scare the hell out of a DJ. I assume a proportion of the older guys maybe using these treatments so I thought it was a good idea to have the discussion here instead of pming him.

As another aside---these are simply DHT blockers. Know whats the strongest DHT blocker ever found? Progesterone. 1/4 teaspoon twice a day of progesterone cream rubbed on the underside of the forearms would likely have the same if not better effects on hair loss, would also rebalance the hormonal state in many people's body since progesterone is low in many people(it acts as an antagonist to estrogen, preventing and reversing Estrogen dominance---which has NOTHING to do with Testosterone:Estrogen levels in many cases, but instead Progesterone:Estrogen levels--ie without sufficient progesterone you will display estrogen dominance characteristics regardless of your T levels, and also acts as a secondary sex hormone to Testosterone and has been found to play a key role with Testosterone in male functioning).

Oh yeah, it has literally no side effects either. I've used it for over a year now.

Bottom line, and its the case in almost every situation with long term prescription drugs with virtually no exceptions, there is a natural product that works better, is cheaper and has no side effects. For acute issues or life saving reasons I'm all for prescription drugs. For using them the remainder of your life? Never. You've been sold a bill of goods. The body knows and likes natural forms of things not man-made forms. It knows the difference and it will not react kindly to it over time.

 

[ubercat]

@marmel75 thanks man really appreciate the info. And yeah well I take this s*** everyday so believe me I'm taking it seriously. So is progesterone cream a prescription drug?

 

[marmel75]

@marmel75 thanks man really appreciate the info. And yeah well I take this s*** everyday so believe me I'm taking it seriously. So is progesterone cream a prescription drug?

No it's readily available over the counter. I use source naturals it's bio-identical to natural progesterone and it's paraben free. Think it's about $10-12 a container and that will last 2-3 months.

 

[ubercat]

Great info for the guys. I suppose one of the concerns I do have is that even with vitamins most experts seem to say your best getting it from food. It seems to be around the dosage that your body isn't able to cope with high doses probably as it is designed to get them from food where you wouldnt get higher doses.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/many-vitamins-can-give-you-5556383

And I remember a major study about resveratrol which of course was meant to be the miracle antioxidant found that high dosages blocked all the good effects of exercise. So you were better off eating red grapes pistachios etc.

Which is in line with your argument that the body respond best to natural inputs

 

[ubercat]

@marmel75 . So to develop that line of thought the next question is what would a food plus minimum supplementation program look like?

 

[ubercat]

Key questions to me are:

Does the body need magnesium, K2 and D3 everyday?

If that is the case, then getting those vitamins from food is going to be difficult.

Can combining low dosage supplements with food be effective? So I guess the real question there is does improving your magnesium and K2 levels a bit, then help a bit? Or is there a level you need to reach you are unlikely to get to just consuming foods that are high in that mineral?

EG if I got on the magnesium oil once a week and made sure I ate each of these once a week:
https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-magnesium.php

And added natto and sauerkraut to my Diet a couple of times a week, would that do the trick?

 

[ubercat]

Now there is research saying magnesium levels in food have declined.
http://www.ancient-minerals.com/magnesium-sources/dietary/

And going by the article below a heck of a lot of things block dietary magnesium absorption
http://wellnessmama.com/3610/low-magnesium/

So it looks like supplements are necessary. But as we saw from my previous post it's dangerous to fall into the more is better trap. So the question now becomes what are the minimum dosages to get the good health effects?

 

[ubercat]

And as an aside it seems that you have to be careful that your magnesium supplement isn't contaminated with heavy metals

http://www.ancient-minerals.com/products/zechstein-pure-magnesium-oil/

 

[ubercat]

https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-k/
Is notes here that since vitamin K is fat soluble you have to take it with a meal containing fat or in capsules that contain fatty acids. So I guess having it with a glass of full cream milk would get the job done

 

[marmel75]

Key questions to me are:

Does the body need magnesium, K2 and D3 everyday?

If that is the case, then getting those vitamins from food is going to be difficult.

Can combining low dosage supplements with food be effective? So I guess the real question there is does improving your magnesium and K2 levels a bit, then help a bit? Or is there a level you need to reach you are unlikely to get to just consuming foods that are high in that mineral?

EG if I got on the magnesium oil once a week and made sure I ate each of these once a week:
https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-magnesium.php

And added natto and sauerkraut to my Diet a couple of times a week, would that do the trick?

Like the body needs water. You are likely taking in 6-8 times the amount of calcium you need every day, these are needed to balance that out. Any additional amount will help, your body is starving for it---it would be like asking if you had all these construction projects that were at a standstill due to lack of workers and if supplying 5 workers would help at all/ Well, yeah they will help, but supplying 50 will be better. Most people are so deficient in magnesium you could literally almost use as much as you want and the body would just keep soaking it up.

 

[guru1000]

Finasteride 1mg is an oral medication, manufactured by Merck Pharmaceuticals, that blocks the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), the hormone largely responsible for male pattern baldness. It does this by inhibiting the action of the type II 5-alpha reductase enzyme that is present in higher concentration in and around the hair follicles of balding men with androgenetic alopecia.

Finasteride is the only FDA approved medication for hair loss in men. It became available as the brand Propecia (finasteride 1mg) in December 1997. It is now generic. The same drug, under the brand name Proscar (finasteride 5mg) has been approved for the treatment of prostate enlargement since1992.

Finasteride produces a rapid decrease in serum DHT concentration. Lowering DHT appears to inhibit the miniaturization (shrinking) of affected hair follicles and helps restore miniaturized hair follicles to regrow visible hair. In studies, circulating levels of testosterone and estradiol were increased by approximately 15% as compared to baseline in the first year of treatment, but these levels were within normal range.

Studies evidence that after five years of treatment, 90% of men taking finasteride maintained their hair or increased hair growth. At five years, 48% of men treated demonstrated an increase in hair growth, 42% were rated as having no change (no further visible progression of hair loss from baseline) and 10% were rated as having lost hair when compared to baseline. In comparison, 6% of men treated with placebo demonstrated an increase in hair growth, 19% were rated as having no change and 75% were rated as having lost hair when compared to baseline.

The effects of finasteride are confined to areas of the scalp that are thinning, but where there is still some hair present. It does not seem to grow hair in completely bald areas. Therefore, the major benefit of finasteride seems to be in its ability to slow down or halt hair loss, or regrow hair in parts of the scalp, where the hair is thin. The effects of finasteride peak at one to two years. Finasteride continues to be effective for at least 5 years in slowing down, or preventing additional hair loss.

The benefits of finasteride will stop if the medication is discontinued. Over the two to six months following discontinuation, the hair loss pattern will generally return to the state that it would have been reached if the medication had never been used.

Sexual Side Effects

Side effects from finasteride at the 1-mg dose are uncommon. The data shows 3.8% of men had reported one or more adverse sexual experiences as compared to 2.1% men who did not receive Propecia (received placebo). This represents a 1.7% difference. There are quite a few anecdotal reports of sexual dysfunction using finasteride on the internet. But this logic fails to account for the other 96% of men who don’t report their findings at all because no side effects are present. The irony is greater than 3.8% of men in the general populace report sexual-dysfunction issues. Accordingly, how does one ascribe a sexual dysfunction casual relationship to finasteride?

As to the magnesium, K2 regimen that Marmel proposes, I would be more than happy to read the studies (not professional opinions) that have been conducted on his proposed hair loss remedy. I’m not stating that Marmel’s regimen is erroneous, but I’d like to see the studies, not an anecdotal testimony, from which he bases his conclusions.

 

[marmel75]

Finasteride 1mg is an oral medication, manufactured by Merck Pharmaceuticals, that blocks the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), the hormone largely responsible for male pattern baldness. It does this by inhibiting the action of the type II 5-alpha reductase enzyme that is present in higher concentration in and around the hair follicles of balding men with androgenetic alopecia.

As to the magnesium, K2 regimen that Marmel proposes, I would be more than happy to read the studies (not professional opinions) that have been conducted on his proposed hair loss remedy. I’m not stating that Marmel’s regimen is erroneous, but I’d like to see the studies, not an anecdotal testimony, from which he bases his conclusions.

In regards to part A:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11358723

Finstaride inhibited DHT by up to 86%, Progesterone by up to 75%.
The 11% difference is pretty small, especially when you consider the wide range of side effects of the two. Virtually all positive for Progesterone and virtually all negative for Finasteride. It's simply is another instance where natural products are similarly effective, and in many cases mode effective to synthetic pharmaceutical drugs and have beneficial side effects versus harmful ones.

In regards to men and progesterone specifically:
http://chestsculpting.com/progesterone-for-men-the-missing-link-in-man-boob-reduction/

In Regards to Part B:
The #1 killer of people in this country is Heart Attacks. The #1 cause of Heart Attacks is Atherosclerosis(calcium buildup in the arteries). Except it doesn't just selectively build up in the arteries, it builds up in all soft tissue pretty evenly(muscles, smaller blood vessels, etc). Since arteries are much bigger than capillaries, it kind of is common sense that you would see the effects from capillaries being blocked long before you would have a heart attack from having your arteries blocked. This doesn't happen over a period of a year or two. This happens over a period of decades, in many people since the day they were born.

Various Studies on K2: http://vitamink2.org/benefit/vitamin-k2-heart-health/
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-K

 

[guru1000]

As another aside---these are simply DHT blockers. Know whats the strongest DHT blocker ever found? Progesterone. 1/4 teaspoon twice a day of progesterone cream rubbed on the underside of the forearms would likely have the same if not better effects on hair loss,

1. "Progesterone is a 5alpha-R inhibitor but topical application is ineffective in men because of rapid metabolization." (European Journal of Dermatology. Volume 10, Number 5, 410-7, July - August 2000, Articles FMC; R. Hoffmann) .

2. Various synthetic progesterone have been studied in androgenetic alopecia (APA). Sebum production has been reported to be inhibited by progesterone (i) but other studies were not able to confirm these results [ii]. "The effects of progesterone on APA remain elusive" (Hoffman).

Now:

Finasteride with hundreds of studies, an FDA approval, hundreds of thousands of Finasteride users across the globe with bonafide results, with no evidenced sexual-dysfunction, causal-relational side effects--versus--Progesterone (P) with one study comprising only five males, and other studies denying its DHT reductive effects (see ii), and one study demonstrating P's ineffectiveness by topical application (Hoffman).

Dare I cite P's side effects? Let the reader choose.

Cited

i. Tamm J, Seckelmann M, Volkwein U, Ludwig E. The effect of the antiandrogen II alpha-hydroxyprogesterone on sebum production and cholesterol concentration of sebum. Br J Dermatol 1982; 107: 63-70

ii. Matias JR, Orentreich N, Malloy V, De Feo CPd, Matias L. The lack of effect of 11 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone on the flank-organ and ear sebaceous glands of adult male Syrian golden hamsters. Arch Dermatol Res 1984; 276: 346-8.

 

[ubercat]

Great info. And thanks for keeping the discussion well balanced and positive gents.

Interesting point on minoxidil
https://examine.com/supplements/minoxidil/

I also take retin A topically as a skin tonic. Evidently it increases the effectiveness of the minoxidil so you only have to apply it once a day. Ie effectively decreasing the dosage you have to take. Good news.

What I am struggling to find are any scientific studies on the side effects of minoxidil.

 

[marmel75]

1. "Progesterone is a 5alpha-R inhibitor but topical application is ineffective in men because of rapid metabolization." (European Journal of Dermatology. Volume 10, Number 5, 410-7, July - August 2000, Articles FMC; R. Hoffmann) .

2. Various synthetic progesterone have been studied in androgenetic alopecia (APA). Sebum production has been reported to be inhibited by progesterone (i) but other studies were not able to confirm these results [ii]. "The effects of progesterone on APA remain elusive" (Hoffman).

Now:

Finasteride with hundreds of studies, an FDA approval, hundreds of thousands of Finasteride users across the globe with bonafide results, with no evidenced sexual-dysfunction, causal-relational side effects--versus--Progesterone (P) with one study comprising only five males, and other studies denying its DHT reductive effects (see ii), and one study demonstrating P's ineffectiveness by topical application (Hoffman).

Dare I cite P's side effects? Let the reader choose.

Cited

i. Tamm J, Seckelmann M, Volkwein U, Ludwig E. The effect of the antiandrogen II alpha-hydroxyprogesterone on sebum production and cholesterol concentration of sebum. Br J Dermatol 1982; 107: 63-70

ii. Matias JR, Orentreich N, Malloy V, De Feo CPd, Matias L. The lack of effect of 11 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone on the flank-organ and ear sebaceous glands of adult male Syrian golden hamsters. Arch Dermatol Res 1984; 276: 346-8.

Finasteride is absorbed into the brain and has a negative effect on the production of the brain neurosteroids, including DHT and allopregnenolone (from progesterone). Not only does this enzyme affect DHT, but it also affects the conversions of progesterone, cortisol and aldosterone in the brain. In addition, German researchers found that use of the drug prevents the regrowth of neurons in the hippocampus. Emotional flatness, depression, anxiety, decreased concentration and memory loss, all of which continue on after the drug has been stopped, have been documented. Suicidal thoughts, and even suicide, have also been reported.


Physical side effects include curvature of the penis, testicular and scrotal pain, atrophy of the penis and testicles, breast enlargement, inability to achieve erections and loss of the ability to reach orgasm. Because testosterone becomes deficient, cardiac and muscular problems may also emerge. A very aggressive form of prostate cancer can occur after using Propecia.


Class action law suits have been initiated against Propecia in Israel and Canada. Not only are there significant side effects involving sexual function, a significant number of young men continue to have these effects even years after stopping the drug.

An explanation for the damage perhaps lies with finasteride's chemical structure.

​

Finasteride might be classified as a synthetic progestin and/or testosterone when you examine the features common in all three molecules. As we already know from many studies and observations, progestins never substitute for the action of progesterone. The Women's Health Initiative study demonstrated this issue quite well.

https://womensinternational.com/newsletter/article_propecia.html

If you've done any type of research on synthetic progestins in the past you know that is a dangerous road to go down...one that typically leads to some pretty serious issues with enough time...you are gonna take that risk just to save a few hairs? Fvck that.

References

• Adverse Side Effects of 5a-Reductase Inhibitors Therapy: Persistent Diminished Libido and Erectile Dysfunction and Depression in a Subset of Patients by A.M. Traish, PhD, et al; The Journal of Sexual Medicine; Volume 8, Issue 3, March 2011.
• J Sex Med. 2013 Oct;10(10):2598-603. doi: 10.1111/jsm.12269. Epub 2013 Jul 24. Neuroactive Steroid Levels are Modified in Cerebrospinal Fluid and Plasma of Post-Finasteride Patients Showing Persistent Sexual Side Effects and Anxious/Depressive Symptomatology. Melcangi RC, Caruso D, Abbiati F, Giatti S, Calabrese D, Piazza F, Cavaletti G. Hormonal profile of men with premature balding by L. St?rka, et al.; Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2004 Jan;112(1):24-8.

 

[guru1000]

THE NOCEBO EFFECT

The role of nocebo effect in the causation of ED due to finasteride has been investigated (1). Nocebo effect refers to an adverse effect that results from the psychological awareness of the possibility of the side effects, but is not a direct result of the specific pharmacological action of the drug. In this study, the group informed about the sexual adverse effects of finasteride reported increased incidence of ED, when compared to the group without information (1). The side effects were completely reversible in 5 days when the medicine was discontinued, confirming that nocebo effect has an influence in causation of side effects and suggesting the role of psychological factors.

Two studies in 1998 and 1999 showed that the incidence of these side effects with finasteride therapy was generally comparable to that observed with the treatment with placebo (2,3),and there was no evidence of dose dependency or increased incidence with longer therapy out to 12 months. In addition, the side effects ceased in patients even when they continued to receive finasteride (and told they weren't).

A long term study showed that drug-related sexual side effects such as decreased libido, ED, and ejaculatory disorders occurred in <2% of men (4).These side-effects disappeared not only in all men who stopped the drug because of the side effects but also in most of those who continued therapy. The incidence of each side effect mentioned decreased to ≤0.3% by the fifth year of treatment with finasteride. The incidence of side effects were comparable to that of placebo both at one year and at 5 years.

The mind is indeed a powerful instrument and the creator of all processes. No causal relationships have been established in your cited studies (through my perusal) between finasteride and loss in brain function. I have zero sexual dysfunction, nor any compromise in focus, concentration, thinking. Danger attested to none as well. What about you, Ubercat; any Asian girls complaining about your lack of brain function or that they aren't being piped correctly?

But hey, if one starts Finasteride, and feels a side effect, then get off. Any manipulation of hormones, including DHT, IMO could throw something off. Any side effects, if any, would be related to the reducing of DHT by 80%+, not so much the finasteride. Nothing wrong with a bald head. But if one wants to keep their hair, they must engage before the hair loss, as a bald head will remain bald outside of FUE/FUT hair surgery.

REFERENCES

1. Mondaini N, Gontero P, Giubilei G, Lombardi G, Cai T, Gavazzi A, et al. Finasteride 5mg and sexual side effects: How many of these are related to a nocebo phenomenon? J Sex Med. 2007;4:1708–12. [PubMed]

2. Kaufman KD, Olsen EA, Whiting D, Savin R, DeVillez R, Bergfeld W. Finasteride in the treatment of men with androgenetic alopecia. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1999;41:555–63. [PubMed]

3. Leyden J, Dunlap F, Miller B, Winters P, Lebwohl M, Hecker D, et al. Finasteride in the treatment of men with frontal male pattern hair loss. J Am Acad Dermaol. 1999;40:930–7. [PubMed]

4. Kaufman KD. Long-term (5-year) multinational experience with finasteride 1 mg in the treatment of men with androgenetic alopecia. Eur J Dermatol. 2002;12:38–49. [PubMed]